The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Makorus]

Just curious, is any other character on that cover or in those short stories insignificant to TWW’s story, or is it just Gazlowe?



Uh no I’m not. I’m treating the RPG books as a potential source for future WoW material. Again, it’s exactly the same thing Blizzard said they would do;




https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/War...20game%20canon.


You’re simply arguing for the sake of arguing.

Thrall is irrelevant.

He is on the cover because one of the short stories is about Gazlowe, and because there is a goblin presence. He is not a major character in any way. He is as important as Khadgar was in Dragonflight, maybe even less so because Blizzard literally did not talk about Gazlowe in any way whatsoever. If you didn't follow the nitty-gritty Beta storyline, you wouldn't even know he was in the expansion. Hell, even if you do, I wouldn't blame you for missing it because he is irrelevant in the actual expansion as well.

Wouldn't be the first time they had promotional material about characters that weren't really relevant and just did it to flesh things out.

[Enrif]

Those are simply examples of exactly what is stated there. Treat these things as non-canon unless otherwise stated.

You literally just repeated what the blue post says...

Not quite. The quote states: non-canonical unless otherwise stated.
What i say, it is neither canon nor non-canon, and can be treated as canon for the sake of theories and speculation.

[Makorus]

Not quite. The quote states: non-canonical unless otherwise stated.
What i say, it is neither canon nor non-canon, and can be treated as canon for the sake of theories and speculation.

I mean, it is literally non-canon. They said it's non-canon. It should be treated as non-canon until it is canon.

You could use the same argument that you have for stuff like fan-fiction or anything on the planet.

[Teriz]

Thrall is irrelevant.

Thrall brought Anduin back into the fight in the teaser trailer. He’s definitely not irrelevant.

He is on the cover because one of the short stories is about Gazlowe, and because there is a goblin presence. He is not a major character in any way. He is as important as Khadgar was in Dragonflight, maybe even less so because Blizzard literally did not talk about Gazlowe in any way whatsoever. If you didn't follow the nitty-gritty Beta storyline, you wouldn't even know he was in the expansion. Hell, even if you do, I wouldn't blame you for missing it because he is irrelevant in the actual expansion as well.

Wouldn't be the first time they had promotional material about characters that weren't really relevant and just did it to flesh things out.

I wouldn’t say he’s irrelevant either, since he helps us and Faerin Lothar in Azj Kahet.

Which only further makes me suspect that we don’t know the entire storyline in TWW, so it’s a bit early to say characters aren’t going to do anything significant just because they weren’t mentioned at BlizzCon.

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Well, we see Thrall and Anduin in the TWW's opening cinematic. We see Anduin, Thrall, Magni and Alleria in the expansion's reveal event. We have Anduin, Thrall, Magni and Alleria being mentioned in interviews about the expansion's story.

I'm still waiting for you to show me any time Gazlowe is mentioned in any capacity whenever the expansion's story is being discussed.

So why do you believe that Blizzard would place an insignificant character in a book where every other character in the book is significant to the storyline?

Well, let's look at your own argument here:

So, no, you shouldn't use the books as any sort of reflection of the franchise's canon.

Again, my argument is simply that Blizzard has repeatedly pulled from those sources for in-game material, so pretending like they don’t exist because they’re not canon is a rather silly argument.

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I mean, it is literally non-canon. They said it's non-canon. It should be treated as non-canon until it is canon.

You could use the same argument that you have for stuff like fan-fiction or anything on the planet.

The difference being that Blizzard themselves stated that since they helped create that material, they will use that material for the game. So, I would argue it’s quite a step up from fan-fiction. Anything in the RPG books could potentially wind up in WoW.

[Enrif]

I mean, it is literally non-canon. They said it's non-canon. It should be treated as non-canon until it is canon.

You could use the same argument that you have for stuff like fan-fiction or anything on the planet.

the RPGs are still products of the company that makes the game. Not some fan-fiction. They have used material often enough to question that "non-canon" stance from over a decade ago. Unless otherwise noticed, everything in the RPGs should be treated as possible canon stuff until subverted. Not the other way around.

[Jaggler]

the RPGs are still products of the company that makes the game. Not some fan-fiction. They have used material often enough to question that "non-canon" stance from over a decade ago. Unless otherwise noticed, everything in the RPGs should be treated as possible canon stuff until subverted. Not the other way around.

That's not how it works. The RPG is considered non-canon. Period.
Sometimes RPG-stuff gets picked up and added to the canon, but that doesn't make the rest of the content canonical.
Blizzard even stated it themselves: Content from the RPOG should be considered non-canon unless otherwise stated.

[Cheezits]

The saga announcement was good for the health of the game (don't quit if you dont like oc island #5, revamp is coming next) but it OBLITERATED speculation to the point of arguing over the most obnoxious semantics (we know rootlands and goblinshit is happening.... but which one will be have eight bosses and which one will have nine bosses????)

Blizz overtly leaking all of this doesn't help. If you want to leak two patches can you just leak the whole roadmap?

[Teriz]

That's not how it works. The RPG is considered non-canon. Period.
Sometimes RPG-stuff gets picked up and added to the canon, but that doesn't make the rest of the content canonical.
Blizzard even stated it themselves: Content from the RPOG should be considered non-canon unless otherwise stated.

But that isn't really the argument.

The argument is that in a SPECULATION thread, the RPG content is fair game because Blizzard has pulled from that content on multiple occasions. In other words, if we're SPECULATING about the potential size of Undermine in a potential upcoming patch, it's fair game to point out that in various sources Undermine is described as a rather big place.

[Enrif]

That's not how it works. The RPG is considered non-canon. Period.
Sometimes RPG-stuff gets picked up and added to the canon, but that doesn't make the rest of the content canonical.
Blizzard even stated it themselves: Content from the RPOG should be considered non-canon unless otherwise stated.

They stated it... 13 years ago. I think if someone would ask them today, they might answer very differently. We already see many shifts in Blizzard in other areas. Why should that decade old statement still hold true?

[Teriz]

The saga announcement was good for the health of the game (don't quit if you dont like oc island #5, revamp is coming next) but it OBLITERATED speculation to the point of arguing over the most obnoxious semantics (we know rootlands and goblinshit is happening.... but which one will be have eight bosses and which one will have nine bosses????)

Blizz overtly leaking all of this doesn't help. If you want to leak two patches can you just leak the whole roadmap?

Nah, we're still speculating. Some people simply don't like the idea of significant Goblin material being the focus of a patch and raid.

[Makorus]

They stated it... 13 years ago. I think if someone would ask them today, they might answer very differently. We already see many shifts in Blizzard in other areas. Why should that decade old statement still hold true?

Why would it not? Is there anything indicating that it isn't?

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Thrall brought Anduin back into the fight in the teaser trailer. He’s definitely not irrelevant.



I wouldn’t say he’s irrelevant either, since he helps us and Faerin Lothar in Azj Kahet.

Which only further makes me suspect that we don’t know the entire storyline in TWW, so it’s a bit early to say characters aren’t going to do anything significant just because they weren’t mentioned at BlizzCon.

Sorry but saying a character is significant to an expansion because they showed up in a cinematic is ridiculous. Just because a character does something doesn't mean they are relevant to an expansion, otherwise, Mudmug or Tak-Tak would be "relevant characters" in MoP. Thrall had a cinematic in BfA and I honestly could not tell you what he did that expansion.

At best, Gazlowe is as relevant to TWW as Sindragosa was to DF: A major quest npc. Would I say Sindragosa is important to DF? Nah.

[Ersula]

Not quite. The quote states: non-canonical unless otherwise stated.
What i say, it is neither canon nor non-canon, and can be treated as canon for the sake of theories and speculation.

I mean, it is literally non-canon. They said it's non-canon. It should be treated as non-canon until it is canon.

You could use the same argument that you have for stuff like fan-fiction or anything on the planet.

The confusion here is your logic is backwards. The writers of the TTRPG (who were not Blizzard employees) had access to unpublished lore from the wow developers. So, as that Q&A explained, if something from the ttrpg appears in game, its just because it was always canon, but not yet revealed. They aren't getting inspiration from the ttrpg.

[Teriz]

Sorry but saying a character is significant to an expansion because they showed up in a cinematic is ridiculous. Just because a character does something doesn't mean they are relevant to an expansion, otherwise, Mudmug or Tak-Tak would be "relevant characters" in MoP. Thrall had a cinematic in BfA and I honestly could not tell you what he did that expansion.

At the end of BFA, he reorganized the Horde from having a warchief into having a council, and recruited multiple leaders into the fold, including Gazlowe.

That's rather significant.

At best, Gazlowe is as relevant to TWW as Sindragosa was to DF: A major quest npc. Would I say Sindragosa is important to DF? Nah.

Uh, even WoW-related media is pointing out that Gazlowe's presence in TWW and other evidence is pointing in a direction of Undermine;

https://www.wowhead.com/news/gazlowe...dermine-342238

Again, people are free to dismiss evidence if they wish, but they should keep in mind that this is a speculation thread.

[Khaza-R]

The saga announcement was good for the health of the game (don't quit if you dont like oc island #5, revamp is coming next) but it OBLITERATED speculation to the point of arguing over the most obnoxious semantics (we know rootlands and goblinshit is happening.... but which one will be have eight bosses and which one will have nine bosses????)

Blizz overtly leaking all of this doesn't help. If you want to leak two patches can you just leak the whole roadmap?

Idk, was DF any different? I feel like there was very little speculation to be had other than if Vakthros would be a raid how the incarnates would be dealt with.

[Cheezits]

Idk, was DF any different? I feel like there was very little speculation to be had other than if Vakthros would be a raid how the incarnates would be dealt with.

I'd say there was a lot of speculation on how the latter half of the expansion would look like. It was posited that the tree would grow in the empty area but I think the Dream itself being a zone was a surprise (before the icon was datamined). And then there was the "is there a 10.3" speculation.

[Makorus]

The confusion here is your logic is backwards. The writers of the TTRPG (who were not Blizzard employees) had access to unpublished lore from the wow developers. So, as that Q&A explained, if something from the ttrpg appears in game, its just because it was always canon, but not yet revealed. They aren't getting inspiration from the ttrpg.

Once again, that does not mean that it's canon.

If someone leaked Metzens diary and it said that Tauren are actually just mutated cows, that wouldn't mean it's canon, because that's not how canonicity works.

[Timester]

Uh, even WoW-related media is pointing out that Gazlowe's presence in TWW and other evidence is pointing in a direction of Undermine;

https://www.wowhead.com/news/gazlowe...dermine-342238

Again, people are free to dismiss evidence if they wish, but they should keep in mind that this is a speculation thread.

We save a random Gazlowe appearance and a bunch of Dalarani from Nerubians and later Gazlowe is minor questgiver regarding a Venture Co. spa. That's it. The Undermine line is a "well, thank you Captain Obvious", since we well know that Venture Co. is from Undermine.

We even see Danath Trollbane more times than Gazlowe and Danath has no fricking lines.

There is a difference between speculating over facts and speculating over speculation.

[milkmustache]

We save a random Gazlowe appearance and a bunch of Dalarani from Nerubians and later Gazlowe is minor questgiver regarding a Venture Co. spa. That's it. The Undermine line is a "well, thank you Captain Obvious", since we well know that Venture Co. is from Undermine.

We even see Danath Trollbane more times than Gazlowe and Danath has no fricking lines.

There is a difference between speculating over facts and speculating over speculation.

It's one thing to not believe there's enough evidence for you to buy into it as is completely valid in a speculation forum, but it's another to make an incredible oversimplification of things.

Gazlowe is one of a handful of characters to receive a short story written about him as build up to the expansion. We can place the pieces together to realize if he's only featured slightly here but seems to have importance, then we're bound to see more of him later.

And while it is just a one liner, stating:

We'll need to be careful with the Venture Company, but there's no need to fight them while we're here on other business.
Particularly when they mention Undermine in casual conversation... that warrants further chat!

is quite literal foreshadowing opposed to a lore enjoyer nod.

[Ielenia]

So why do you believe that Blizzard would place an insignificant character in a book where every other character in the book is significant to the storyline?

It's an anthology collection. Disconnected stories put together in a single book. One such disconnected story involves him.

Again, my argument is simply that Blizzard has repeatedly pulled from those sources for in-game material, so pretending like they don’t exist because they’re not canon is a rather silly argument.

And your argument fails because you're treating the RPG books as a canon source: "undermine is huge in the RPG books therefore it'll be huge in WoW". And I keep debunking that statement by pointing out that Blizzard themselves have told us to not treat the RPG books as any sort of source for the franchise's lore.

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This is a very old quote, isn't it, from 2011? We are farther away from that quote, then the quote was from the RPGs. Considering things seen since then, i would put the RPG books in a Schrödingers box. They are canon and non-canon until the specific part is brought up in the game and confirms/denies the RPG. Tandred is the most famous example of this (with him even having a joke voiceline of him not being canon).
The RPGs can be uses as a stepping stone for theorizing of what might come and what might not.

For a more recent inclusion of RPG lore into the game:

Paracausal Fragment of Seschenal sold by Sorotis is a reference to Seschenal, the weapon of Eonar in the RPG.

The quote may be old, but it is still valid and very much in effect, until Blizzard says otherwise. And to my recollection they have not said otherwise yet.

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the RPGs are still products of the company that makes the game. Not some fan-fiction.

No, the RPG books were not made by Blizzard. They were made by 'Sword & Sorcery Studios', a third-party company.

[Teriz]

We save a random Gazlowe appearance and a bunch of Dalarani from Nerubians and later Gazlowe is minor questgiver regarding a Venture Co. spa. That's it. The Undermine line is a "well, thank you Captain Obvious", since we well know that Venture Co. is from Undermine.

We even see Danath Trollbane more times than Gazlowe and Danath has no fricking lines.

Uh Gazlowe also fights alongside Faerin Lothar to disrupt a Nerubian invasion of Hallowfall in the "All Good Things" storyline in Azj Kahet.

There is a difference between speculating over facts and speculating over speculation.

It would appear that you're not aware of all the facts in this case.

It's an anthology collection.

And here you are being purposely obtuse again. It's an anthology collection featuring the significant characters of TWW. My question to you (again) is why would Gazlowe be the only insignificant character in an anthology featuring significant characters?

And your argument fails because you're treating the RPG books as a canon source.

Again, this is a lie. I'm treating the RPG books as a potential source for game content, which they are by Blizzard's own admission.