The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Khaza-R]

Well you can cosplay as Xal in Diablo 4 now lol

[Foolicious]

Well you can cosplay as Xal in Diablo 4 now lol

Not that i care about diablo anymore, but these sets look great. Xavius/druid looks a bit weird though. There is a chunky xavius model they could have used as inspiration rather than trying to make the skinny model fit.
Xal, kael and sylvanas will bring in some money for blizzard

[Joshuaj]

Tbh it still feels like Zereth Mortis was originally meant to be just "the creators workshop" and somewhere half through development they changed it so that every cosmic force has a Zereth instead.

It IS the creator's workshop. However, it's one of 6 workshops (Supposedly, tho there could be more?).

[Makorus]

It IS the creator's workshop. However, it's one of 6 workshops (Supposedly, tho there could be more?).

The Creators Workshop that is somehow the only one able to rewrite reality.

[Joshuaj]

Yeah, Zereth Mortis doesn't really feel like a death realm, and the whole "imbuing automata with souls to create beings" thing is very out of place.

Then again, I suppose, we don't know if the other Zereths are actually a thing. We just assume they are a thing because Mortis was listed along with all the other Force-Names.

Zereth Ordus was name dropped, so we can assume that other Zereths do infact exist. Also, Zereth Mortis doesn't look like a Death realm because it's not supposed to be. It's a workshop where the domain of Death was created AKA a behind the scenes of it all. It makes sense that it would look different from the actual Death realm.

[Auxis]

The Creators Workshop that is somehow the only one able to rewrite reality.

Is it explicitly stated that ZM is the only Zereth to have an Origination device?

[Joshuaj]

The Creators Workshop that is somehow the only one able to rewrite reality.

Except it's not. The heart of the Sepulcher was literally connecting itself to the other inner sanctums of the First Ones (AKA the heart of Zereth Ordus, the heart of Zereth Vitae, etc). Firim talks about this in his final book regarding his studies of Zereth Mortis.

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Is it explicitly stated that ZM is the only Zereth to have an Origination device?

No. The Machine of Origination is an overarching machine that stretches throughout each cosmic heart. Zovaal simply activated it through the Heart of Eternity (AKA Death's part of the machine).

[Khaza-R]

Not that i care about diablo anymore, but these sets look great. Xavius/druid looks a bit weird though. There is a chunky xavius model they could have used as inspiration rather than trying to make the skinny model fit.
Xal, kael and sylvanas will bring in some money for blizzard

Sets look good but also some weird uncanny valley when they are on the D4 models. Which is actually why I think the druid one is the best even though it looks nothing like Xavius.

[Joshuaj]

You gotta understand, the Machine of Origination is just that, the Machine of Origination. It was created by the First Ones to seemingly be the starting point from which all things were made from.

It would make sense for each Cosmic Force to have different aspects of the machine entire, especially if we follow Chronicle's statement of the cosmic forces being named after the Progenitor's themselves (While also being extensions of them). Meaning, if Chronicle is correct on that part and isn't just taking Firim's theories in a weird way, then there's a mf named "Death" out there lmaooo

[Steampunkette]

You gotta understand, the Machine of Origination is just that, the Machine of Origination. It was created by the First Ones to seemingly be the starting point from which all things were made from.

It would make sense for each Cosmic Force to have different aspects of the machine entire, especially if we follow Chronicle's statement of the cosmic forces being named after the Progenitor's themselves (While also being extensions of them). Meaning, if Chronicle is correct on that part and isn't just taking Firim's theories in a weird way, then there's a mf named "Death" out there lmaooo

Humans have had "Death" as a cultural entity as long as Death has been a thing!

[Joshuaj]

Humans have had "Death" as a cultural entity as long as Death has been a thing!

Here's the thing though, when we talk "Death". We're talking about the being that personifies it. DC does the exact same thing with one of the Endless members. In WoW, Death's personifications are the Eternal Ones.

However, assuming that's it's name, the Progenitor named "Death" is simply the creator of the force "Death". It's not meant to embody it or anything like that. Hell, it's very nature transcends the cosmic force entire, and it most likely has its own magics, just like the other Progenitors.

[Steampunkette]

Here's the thing though, when we talk "Death". We're talking about the being that personifies it. DC does the exact same thing with one of the Endless members. In WoW, Death's personifications are the Eternal Ones.

However, assuming that's it's name, the Progenitor named "Death" is simply the creator of the force "Death". It's not meant to embody it or anything like that. Hell, it's very nature transcends the cosmic force entire, and it most likely has its own magics, just like the other Progenitors.

I disagree that the Eternal Ones "Embody" death. MAYBE Maldraxxus did, before he died and became a battlefield. But the Jailer and the rest are automatons created by the First Ones.



To me this indicates that they're more similar to Titan Constructs like the Keepers and Watchers. They are the machinery that keeps Death running.

Similarly, with the knowledge that Zereth Ordus exists, it's likely the Titans, themselves, aren't the embodiment of Order, but simply representative automatons of it. And the Void Lords as well.

It's certainly possible that "Death" is just "Some Guy tinkering in a workshop", but I think it'll be the actual embodiment of death as a force.

At least until they introduce us to the "Firster Ones" who created the First Ones, because WoW has long gone full DBZ on stuff like this.

[Joshuaj]

I disagree that the Eternal Ones "Embody" death. MAYBE Maldraxxus did, before he died and became a battlefield. But the Jailer and the rest are automatons created by the First Ones.



To me this indicates that they're more similar to Titan Constructs like the Keepers and Watchers. They are the machinery that keeps Death running.

Similarly, with the knowledge that Zereth Ordus exists, it's likely the Titans, themselves, aren't the embodiment of Order, but simply representative automatons of it. And the Void Lords as well.

It's certainly possible that "Death" is just "Some Guy tinkering in a workshop", but I think it'll be the actual embodiment of death as a force.

At least until they introduce us to the "Firster Ones" who created the First Ones, because WoW has long gone full DBZ on stuff like this.

The Eternal Ones' vessels are just that, vessels. That's part of their creation process. Sure it might seem rather anti-climactic or "artificial", but the vessel isn't the only thing that makes an Eternal One. A soul, a sigil that represents their purpose, an actual design to the body + magics and whatnot, as well as a ritual are needed to properly create one.

Also, based off what we know, the cosmic forces simply seem to be a small part of the actual Progenitor. They wouldn't represent anything, as the force is just an aspect of them, shaped and developed through the pattern. The Cosmic Pantheons, although created VIA workshops and whatnot, are meant to embody the forces created from those First Ones.

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Also, it is possible different Pantheons are made in different ways.

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Like I get your argument, but the story confirms to us that the Pantheons are meant to embody the forces the Progenitors made.

[Ersula]

Except it's not. The heart of the Sepulcher was literally connecting itself to the other inner sanctums of the First Ones (AKA the heart of Zereth Ordus, the heart of Zereth Vitae, etc). Firim talks about this in his final book regarding his studies of Zereth Mortis.

The Machine of Origination is an overarching machine that stretches throughout each cosmic heart. Zovaal simply activated it through the Heart of Eternity (AKA Death's part of the machine).

Except there's no reason to think either of those things are connected to the other Zereths. The Machine of Origination is within the Sepulcher. We don't go through any portals or anything to get there & the Heart of Eternity is just the hole funneling Azeroth's worldsoul.

We don't know how Zovaal was going to go about remaking reality but using what the First Ones used to make the afterlives of the Shadowlands is a fine place to start. The Sepulcher was the tipping point of his plan because it could harvest a world soul, which he tried to do with Azeroth & use its inherent anima in his plan. The only thing we can infer is that the "reality" of the shadowlands is the original one because the shadowlands is the layer of reality the First Ones started with, assuming Zereth mortis is inside the Shadowlands at all. (But then again I don't believe the spheres are physical locations, but are just concepts.)

[Steampunkette]

The Eternal Ones' vessels are just that, vessels. That's part of their creation process. Sure it might seem rather anti-climactic or "artificial", but the vessel isn't the only thing that makes an Eternal One. A soul, a sigil that represents their purpose, an actual design to the body + magics and whatnot, as well as a ritual are needed to properly create one.

Also, based off what we know, the cosmic forces simply seem to be a small part of the actual Progenitor. They wouldn't represent anything, as the force is just an aspect of them, shaped and developed through the pattern. The Cosmic Pantheons, although created VIA workshops and whatnot, are meant to embody the forces created from those First Ones.

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Also, it is possible different Pantheons are made in different ways.

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Like I get your argument, but the story confirms to us that the Pantheons are meant to embody the forces the Progenitors made.

The story also confirms to us that there are 5 old gods.

I mean 4 old gods.

I mean 5 old gods.

There's also the whole Watsonian/Doylist divide. And after seeing the Devs ramp up from us fighting wars to killing Old Gods to defeating the Burning Legion to killing Argus to literally killing DEATH ITSELF in the form of the former Arbiter/Judge of Souls/Jailer/Etc who was just a puppet of the First Ones...

I think it's just gonna keep ramping up indefinitely with more and more retcons, each giving us something new and bigger and stronger and more impossible to defeat than the last.

[huth]

Like I get your argument, but the story confirms to us that the Pantheons are meant to embody the forces the Progenitors made.

Well, your own argument is essentially that they don't embody the forces the Progenitors made but rather the forces the Progenitors are.

That would essentially make them avatars of Death.

[Ersula]

Like I get your argument, but the story confirms to us that the Pantheons are meant to embody the forces the Progenitors made.

They were meant to oversee & protect the afterlives created by the First Ones. They are called the Pantheon of Death.
The Titans were meant to oversee & order the material plane. They are called the Pantheon of Order.

The fact they embody different motifs of death that exist in the material plane is just a chicken/egg situation.

Not to mention the idea Elune & the Winter Queen are somehow siblings or how the Primus hid the Tools of Domination on Azeroth without the Titans knowing suggests the Pantheons did not always exist the way they do now.

[Golden Yak]

I disagree that the Eternal Ones "Embody" death. MAYBE Maldraxxus did, before he died and became a battlefield. But the Jailer and the rest are automatons created by the First Ones.

Wait, was Maldraxxus once a guy? I must have missed that part.

[Ersula]

Wait, was Maldraxxus once a guy? I must have missed that part.

Yes, we don't know much but the NPCs do talk about how the physical plane of Maldraxxus is an undead creature itself. That's why the giant bones that make up the landscape actually twitch if you watch them long enough.

Seems like the First Ones felt like the undead armies should itself be built off an undead behemoth. Reminds me of the Plane of Disease in Everquest, which was modeled after the extreme closeup of human skin: The creatures living there would be rashes & mites with hair follicles serving as trees.

I think the cosmic settings are actually very good. It's just that the storytelling of shadowlands was lacking.

[Foolicious]

Wait, was Maldraxxus once a guy? I must have missed that part.

It's never been confirmed, but has been floating around as a theory that maldraxxus was once part of some being. Some flavourtext of an item mentions "the maldraxxus" and the zone itself is kind of alive with hair growing, fleshy pustules, ground that looks like skin etc.

But never anything concrete to confirm this as far as im aware.