The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[doledippers]

New goal post?

what?

/10char

[Joshuaj]

"Here are some passages

Realms of Death

"Though this tome previously set forth the creation of the physical universe, the Pantheon of Death believed differently. A myth had taken root in the Shadowlands, centered around a mysterious and enigmatic beings known as the First Ones""

From Chronicle Volume 4.

Yeah seems to simply take from what Odyn said in his edicts. Order documentations can't talk about the Progenitors (Namely due to the idea that mortals can't comprehend their existence), so anything regarding them should be automatically ignored and expressed as "myth/legend".

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It's not retconned, it's just Order creating a narrative to write-off their existence so they don't have to explain it.

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Though it seems Order and Death both have massive disagreements with one another.

Death seems to think Order believes in the Titans architecting the Cosmos, when in Chronicle it's stated that Light and Shadow created everything, not Order.

And Order seems to think that Death believes the First Ones created the physical universe and whatnot, when in reality it simply believes that the Progenitors created the cosmic forces which shaped the universe (This is prolly both a bias and an agenda Order is tryna push since they themselves know the First Ones are the actual makers). But still, we know for a fact that Light and Shadow created the physical universe and whatnot, as per the thousand years of a war audio drama.

The ACTUAL answer for all of this is that the Progenitors created the forces and the pattern, and those forces would create the mortal realm as a result.

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Yeah I fucking cooked.

[Makorus]

I am just glad they didn't retcon the First Ones.

What people don't realise is that the First Ones were necessary, and it's not a fault of Shadowlands writing, it's a fault of Legions writing and even before that by wimpifying the Titans.

If you non-chalantly turn two "gods" into bosses without making a big deal out of it, then yeah, you kinda fucked up. You can headcanon it as "Oh no, it was just an 'avatar'!" or whatever as much as you want, we did beat two Titans in Legion, which turns the concept of a Titan into "just another creature".

[Jaggler]

Yeah, the First Ones per se are not a problem.

During the early days of WoW the Titans were some untouchable, unreachable force. Far away in the distance, the stuff of Legends. In Legion we basically saved their asses, killed another titan and imprisoned Sargeras.
The First Ones taking the place of these weird, unknowable creators Is actually fine, as long as they don't repeat the same mistakes they did with the titans.

[loras]

I am just glad they didn't retcon the First Ones.

What people don't realise is that the First Ones were necessary, and it's not a fault of Shadowlands writing, it's a fault of Legions writing and even before that by wimpifying the Titans.

If you non-chalantly turn two "gods" into bosses without making a big deal out of it, then yeah, you kinda fucked up. You can headcanon it as "Oh no, it was just an 'avatar'!" or whatever as much as you want, we did beat two Titans in Legion, which turns the concept of a Titan into "just another creature".

A good story doesn't need gods.
Of all the things Legion did wrong that wasn't one of them; Aggramar was a tormented husk and Argus a barely formed misshapen titan thing, while Sargeras was restrained by the others.

It does however need better writing, both for the forces that be (non-sentient as they are) as well as for the near-gods that populate said writing.

The old gods were treated much worse, especially given the inconsistency they left regarding the question of "Why imprison them? What makes their relation to death and entripy even special at this point?".

Though admittedly the old gods are still salvageable.

But the bottom line is simple: WoW has always abused its powerful characters, in that sense the fate of the titans is not too different from the fate of the old gods or of the demon lords.

[Joshuaj]

A good story doesn't need gods.
Of all the things Legion did wrong that wasn't one of them; Aggramar was a tormented husk and Argus a barely formed misshapen titan thing, while Sargeras was restrained by the others.

It does however need better writing, both for the forces that be (non-sentient as they are) as well as for the near-gods that populate said writing.

The old gods were treated much worse, especially given the inconsistency they left regarding the question of "Why imprison them? What makes their relation to death and entripy even special at this point?".

Though admittedly the old gods are still salvageable.

But the bottom line is simple: WoW has always abused its powerful characters, in that sense the fate of the titans is not too different from the fate of the old gods or of the demon lords.

Yeah even tho Aggramar was an avatar (Not Argus or the actual Titan spirits at the Seat of the Pantheon. Idk where people got that misinformation from), the actual problem kinda stems from the fact that our first in-game showcase of the Titans has them getting fucked over multiple times by Sargeras

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A pretty pitiful display ngl.

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Yeah imma deem my personally made Cosmology Charts as factual. I'll link it to you guys VIA an Imgur link, but it basically takes the Chronicle and Grimoire charts and expands on them whilist keeping things equal

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What do you guys think? Sorry if it's a lil hard to read

[Eldryth]

About that Earthen Druid NPC that was found in a Follower Dungeon a while back- apparently she was changed to a Shaman (who still wears leather armor) at some point. I haven't redone any Freysworn quests to see if they're still basically Druids, but hopefully they didn't back away from that entirely- I thought they were interesting and I was hoping they would lead to playable Earthen Druids down the line.

And I doubt this will lead to anything, but the Rookery Follower tank is a Shaman. He uses a a single one-handed mace with no shield, and seems to just cast instant Chain Lightnings and auto attack. As much as people want Shaman tanks (I don't tank so I have no personal stake but I'd be happy for others if it happens), even if they do happen down the line, I can't imagine them resembling that.

[Lady Atia]

"Here are some passages

Realms of Death

"Though this tome previously set forth the creation of the physical universe, the Pantheon of Death believed differently. A myth had taken root in the Shadowlands, centered around a mysterious and enigmatic beings known as the First Ones""

From Chronicle Volume 4.

Yeah seems to simply take from what Odyn said in his edicts. Order documentations can't talk about the Progenitors (Namely due to the idea that mortals can't comprehend their existence), so anything regarding them should be automatically ignored and expressed as "myth/legend".

- - - Updated - - -

It's not retconned, it's just Order creating a narrative to write-off their existence so they don't have to explain it.

- - - Updated - - -

Though it seems Order and Death both have massive disagreements with one another.

Death seems to think Order believes in the Titans architecting the Cosmos, when in Chronicle it's stated that Light and Shadow created everything, not Order.

And Order seems to think that Death believes the First Ones created the physical universe and whatnot, when in reality it simply believes that the Progenitors created the cosmic forces which shaped the universe (This is prolly both a bias and an agenda Order is tryna push since they themselves know the First Ones are the actual makers). But still, we know for a fact that Light and Shadow created the physical universe and whatnot, as per the thousand years of a war audio drama.

The ACTUAL answer for all of this is that the Progenitors created the forces and the pattern, and those forces would create the mortal realm as a result.

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Yeah I fucking cooked.

Do you have any other infos about chronicles IV? looks like some hardcopies did arrive early?

[allegrian]

Yeah, the First Ones per se are not a problem.

During the early days of WoW the Titans were some untouchable, unreachable force. Far away in the distance, the stuff of Legends. In Legion we basically saved their asses, killed another titan and imprisoned Sargeras.
The First Ones taking the place of these weird, unknowable creators Is actually fine, as long as they don't repeat the same mistakes they did with the titans.

They are, as they are just the exact same plot beat as the titans by making them create life through robots. It's super unoriginal and just shows how the story devs just want to put their print in the game but are so bad that they just copy what came before.

They are repeating story beats all the time, just look at suramar and how they are azshara 2.0 or sondorei 2.0, and now earthen that are a mix of dark iron, bronzebeard and wildhammer themes.

[Lady Atia]

They are, as they are just the exact same plot beat as the titans by making them create life through robots. It's super unoriginal and just shows how the story devs just want to put their print in the game but are so bad that they just copy what came before.

They are repeating story beats all the time, just look at suramar and how they are azshara 2.0 or sondorei 2.0, and now earthen that are a mix of dark iron, bronzebeard and wildhammer themes.

Ok, so if Blizzard decides to do something new it's shit, but when they do something similiar to established stuff, it's shit too?

Idk man, I just think you want to hate for hate's sake. Also, even George Lukas once said "It's like poetry, they rhyme".

[Shadowferal]

A good story doesn't need gods.

It does however need better writing, both for the forces that be (non-sentient as they are) as well as for the near-gods that populate said writing.

/co-signed
It doesn't need gods, nor any explanation of magic. That damned chart is just a cage for ideas that no one needed.

[Scyth]

About that Earthen Druid NPC that was found in a Follower Dungeon a while back- apparently she was changed to a Shaman (who still wears leather armor) at some point. I haven't redone any Freysworn quests to see if they're still basically Druids, but hopefully they didn't back away from that entirely- I thought they were interesting and I was hoping they would lead to playable Earthen Druids down the line.

And I doubt this will lead to anything, but the Rookery Follower tank is a Shaman. He uses a a single one-handed mace with no shield, and seems to just cast instant Chain Lightnings and auto attack. As much as people want Shaman tanks (I don't tank so I have no personal stake but I'd be happy for others if it happens), even if they do happen down the line, I can't imagine them resembling that.

I can't see them adding a 4th spec to Shamans. They already ignore them a lot, why add an additional spec for them to ignore lol

I'd love to have a tank spec that makes use of Earth a lot more though. Or an actual Elementalist type of spec that uses all 4 elements for tanking purposes.

[Lady Atia]

I can't see them adding a 4th spec to Shamans. They already ignore them a lot, why add an additional spec for them to ignore lol

I'd love to have a tank spec that makes use of Earth a lot more though. Or an actual Elementalist type of spec that uses all 4 elements for tanking purposes.

Tbf they did experiment with new roles for certain classes during SoD and I'm sure we will see them added over time to retail if their data proofs them popular.

[Ersula]

Tbf they did experiment with new roles for certain classes during SoD and I'm sure we will see them added over time to retail if their data proofs them popular.

if you ignore Mage healer is just Discipline Priest, Tank Warlock is just Demon Hunter & Tank Rogue is just Brewmaster

[Cheezits]

I really, really think that the First Ones and Titans being so similar is not laziness but is a direct plot beat. The Odyn writing in DF implies the Titans have a special connection to them and their own Zereth, but covers it up either due to pride or secret instructions from higher up. They even have the constellar hanging out in Mortis and they are either THE Order creatures or are their servants.

As always I still believe the FOs are Titans that time travelled back to the beginning of time (setting things up so they would be the dominant force in the future), or they are direct descendants/heirs of the FOs after they did the original cosmos split. They may even be (literal) copies of them.

Could they have been ambiguous gods that don't match any of the existing themes and aesthetics? Sure. Would that have been a better plot? Can't say. I personally like this level of intrigue, it reeks of entities manipulating things behind the scenes, which is a story type I enjoy.

[Enrif]

if you ignore Mage healer is just Discipline Priest, Tank Warlock is just Demon Hunter & Tank Rogue is just Brewmaster

Well, i once imagined an alternate timeline for WoW, where instead of adding new classes, they simply added new specs to old classes that have the theme of the added classe. But not just giving them a 4th spec, but exchanging one spec/talent tree with a different one.

For Wrath we get Death Knight specs for Warrior, Paladin and Shaman. Warrior loses Fury and gains Blood (blood DPS with enough heal to off-tank at that point in time), Paladin loses Holy and gains Unholy, Shaman looses Restoration and gain Frost (frost shaman tank!)

I would spin this further for other classes.

For Mists, Rogues loses Subtlety and gains Windwalker, Druid loses Balance and gains Brewmaster, Priest loses Discipline and gain Mistweaver.

For Legion, Warlock loses Demonology and gains Vengeance, Rogue loses Assassination and gains Havoc.

For DF, Mage would loose Arcane and gain Devastation, Shaman would loose Elemental and gain Augmentation, Hunter would loose Survival and gain Preservation


But these versions of the specs would be vastly different to what we actually got. But i found it to be an interesting mind exercise.

[Joshuaj]

Do you have any other infos about chronicles IV? looks like some hardcopies did arrive early?

Someone got a hard copy early, and I managed to get others to focus on it lol. But they don't want to share images as to not evoke Blizzards wrath (so we only have one image of proof to work with atm).

Basically, it's more like Chronicle 3 than Chronicles 1-2. There is no new Cosmology chart, there's nothing expanding on things like Archimondes demise or the nature of the Progenitors (outside of doubling down on Odyn's Edicts of course). It's just a quick summary of recent events. Hell, there apparently isn't even an illustration on Zereth Mortis which upsets me (though I'm not surprised considering Order REALLY wants to keep that info on the down low, especially since they're making the narrative that the First Ones are simply that of legend).

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I really, really think that the First Ones and Titans being so similar is not laziness but is a direct plot beat. The Odyn writing in DF implies the Titans have a special connection to them and their own Zereth, but covers it up either due to pride or secret instructions from higher up. They even have the constellar hanging out in Mortis and they are either THE Order creatures or are their servants.

As always I still believe the FOs are Titans that time travelled back to the beginning of time (setting things up so they would be the dominant force in the future), or they are direct descendants/heirs of the FOs after they did the original cosmos split. They may even be (literal) copies of them.

Could they have been ambiguous gods that don't match any of the existing themes and aesthetics? Sure. Would that have been a better plot? Can't say. I personally like this level of intrigue, it reeks of entities manipulating things behind the scenes, which is a story type I enjoy.

It's not laziness. Hell, outside of basic, similar connections, the Titans and the First Ones are fundamentally different looool.

I prefer the idea that the Progenitors are different from the Titans, and that the Titans were given a specific purpose we know nothing of yet, hence why they have a lot of reign in the Dark Beyond.

[milkmustache]

I really, really think that the First Ones and Titans being so similar is not laziness but is a direct plot beat. The Odyn writing in DF implies the Titans have a special connection to them and their own Zereth, but covers it up either due to pride or secret instructions from higher up. They even have the constellar hanging out in Mortis and they are either THE Order creatures or are their servants.

As always I still believe the FOs are Titans that time travelled back to the beginning of time (setting things up so they would be the dominant force in the future), or they are direct descendants/heirs of the FOs after they did the original cosmos split. They may even be (literal) copies of them.

Could they have been ambiguous gods that don't match any of the existing themes and aesthetics? Sure. Would that have been a better plot? Can't say. I personally like this level of intrigue, it reeks of entities manipulating things behind the scenes, which is a story type I enjoy.

This is a cool interpretation of it. I could see this happening.

I think a lot of TLT is meant to show how their hubris will be their downfall. A ton of manipulation, members being compromised by other forces, inner politics vying for supremacy that we're not privy to. The Pantheon are the First Ones, created the cosmos, either stepped into the Pantheon to "oversee" or made whatever copies of themselves as the Pantheon to still have a stake in the cosmos, still think they deserve control, etc etc. I hope it's along that course, that'd be an awesome way to tie in Shadowlands.

[Joshuaj]

This is a cool interpretation of it. I could see this happening.

I think a lot of TLT is meant to show how their hubris will be their downfall. A ton of manipulation, members being compromised by other forces, inner politics vying for supremacy that we're not privy to. The Pantheon are the First Ones, created the cosmos, either stepped into the Pantheon to "oversee" or made whatever copies of themselves as the Pantheon to still have a stake in the cosmos, still think they deserve control, etc etc. I hope it's along that course, that'd be an awesome way to tie in Shadowlands.

People really need to stop the idea that the First Ones are the Titans.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Though this tome previously set forth the creation of the physical universe, the Pantheon of Death believed differently. A myth had taken root in the Shadowlands, centered around a mysterious and enigmatic beings known as the First Ones

> set forth the creation of the physical universe
> a myth had taken root

Shadowlands cosmology decanonization train let's gooo