1. #75581
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuaj View Post
    Do we have the full image for this btw or not yet?
    The order is different than the one from the Chronicle, but it's fundamentally the same information. So i doubt that'd be super interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaggler View Post
    In regards to the Arcana Card,

    it's just a zoomed inl, lightly edited version of the cosmology chart. Light and Void would be off-screen at the top and bottom respectively. It probably would look really busy and cramped if they included them
    Not quite, Light and Void are barely out of frame on the left and right side. You can see part of the border of their circles. In the Chronicle chart, they'd be clearly visible at the top and bottom and the visible ones would be farther apart. Still, there's absolutely nothing new on it, just the known entities.

  2. #75582
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Give me a single post-2014 WoW storyline anywhere near as good as Arthas' story.
    The person you quoted wasn't complaining about the quality of the story, but about the fact that it was very formulaistic. Artha's story, as good as it is, is still very generic.
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  3. #75583
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    The order is different than the one from the Chronicle, but it's fundamentally the same information. So i doubt that'd be super interesting.

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    Not quite, Light and Void are barely out of frame on the left and right side. You can see part of the border of their circles. In the Chronicle chart, they'd be clearly visible at the top and bottom and the visible ones would be farther apart. Still, there's absolutely nothing new on it, just the known entities.
    To me they just look like the rings of the "Water" and "Air" circles legt and right in the chart but in the end it doesn't really matter. it's not like there is anything to read into that.

  4. #75584
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaggler View Post
    In regards to the Arcana Card,

    it's just a zoomed inl, lightly edited version of the cosmology chart. Light and Void would be off-screen at the top and bottom respectively. It probably would look really busy and cramped if they included them
    Nah. Light and Shadow are left and right, not up and down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaggler View Post
    To me they just look like the rings of the "Water" and "Air" circles legt and right in the chart but in the end it doesn't really matter. it's not like there is anything to read into that.
    You literally can't see much of the last 2 circles at all outside of the edges of them. And besides, why would Air and Water be connected to the other 4 cosmic powers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Ahh, yes. I recall so much about the Covenants. Man, I love the... uh... fairy ones. And the Bargain Bin Scourge. And the—snore.
    Yep. I too love the Night Fae, the Necrolords, the Kyrian, and the Venthyr. They're really cool and they represent different aspects of Death in WoW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    No one was looking for "best written." But you were paying for something "well written." And here we are with Shadowlands.
    No one is saying Shadowlands is "well written" but you can't deny it had a lot of cool things setting-wise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Give me a single post-2014 WoW storyline anywhere near as good as Arthas' story.



    While people label post-Legion Anduin as "Manduin", I honestly think he was more proactive and genuinely heroic in MoP.
    Illidan's storyline in Legion. Velen and KJs final convo in Legion. Literally all of Anduin's story so far.

    :/

  5. #75585
    The worst thing about Shadowlands is how frequently it raises these sort of conversations that go absolutely nowhere but argument.

    Do we think Lightforged Gorehowl is anything, or just a prop with Netease? It's poignant and on the nose for the next few expansions, but could just be a brief homage. Is it possible that the Beledar has some relation to the Lightforged and Yrel? Will we see anything happen with it this expansion or will it be a Vakthros?

  6. #75586
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuaj View Post
    He also had an old concept design where he looked like Hades from Greek Myth, and while I do love that a ton, I think it would've given away the "first Arbiter" twist too easily.
    Ehh, i think the "twist" was actually far, far more obvious with the new model. The Arbiter had a big orb in its chest, he had a round hole. Ive seen people theorize that he was the Arbiter bc of that pretty much ever since his model was datamined. So in theory it was more fitting i suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuaj View Post
    Illidan's storyline in Legion. Velen and KJs final convo in Legion. Literally all of Anduin's story so far.

    :/
    Illidan in Legion had pretty much one good point - when he told the golden windchime to beat it. Besides that, it was stuffed full of retcons and turned Illidan, who was previously one of the very few actually "morally grey" characters (besides TBC for obvious reasons) into the average edgy antihero.

    The convo between Kil'jaeden and Velen was pretty good for Warcraft standards ngl

    Anduins story was almost completely boring until Legion, and then pretty average from there on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Arthas' story is literally just a generic "Fallen Hero" story, with no nuance whatsoever. There were like 3-4 identical stories coming out that exact same year.
    It may not have been innovative, but it was simple and effective, instead of trying so hard to be convoluted and mysterious (but still just remaining mostly boring) like much of the newer lore. It wasnt overly deep or complex, but it was fun. The newer lore often tries to go both grander in scale and more mystery-box-style, but is mostly just boring, bc an MMORPG like WoW is just not a very good medium for that. And the constant retcons almost every new xpac every few years also dont help ofc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    And yeah, I like the schlock, and I think the storytelling has been consistently adequate, but people need to take their rose-tinted glasses and see that the quality of the writing has in no way dropped significantly.
    Lawl.
    Again, it mightve never been the pinnacle of fantasy writing, but if you are seriously trying to say that BfA and SL are not significantly worse than WC3, then man, you might need to drop the recency-bias.
    Last edited by Houle; 2024-07-11 at 04:55 PM.
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  7. #75587
    Quote Originally Posted by milkmustache View Post
    Do we think Lightforged Gorehowl is anything, or just a prop with Netease?
    Just a cool high fantasy design.

  8. #75588
    The idea that depth or complexity is the problem is also wrong, see Elden Ring or Morrowind. No, the issue is that the stories are simply not communicated in an interesting or evocative way and the elements underlying them vary from poor execution of excellent ideas at best to terrible execution of terrible ideas at worst.

    Mystery is also not the problem; we need mystery. Master's Glaive before Cataclysm was an example of a good mystery. Whispering Forest was a good mystery. The old gods, prior to being totally demystified in Chronicles, were a mystery. The problem is that most of WoW's current mysteries are forced and are mainly matters of the narrative as opposed to natural results of good and compelling worldbuilding. Having major outlying mysteries in the lore is desirable, having the main villain's motive and personality being a mystery is not.
    Last edited by AOL Instant Messenger; 2024-07-11 at 04:59 PM.
    "We will soon be in a world in which a man may be howled down for saying that two and two make four."
    — G.K. Chesterton

    You hate dracthyr because you hate scalies, I hate dracthyr because I'm a scalie and know naga are better. We are not the same.

  9. #75589
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    The idea that depth or complexity is the problem is also wrong, see Elden Ring or Morrowind. No, the issue is that the stories are simply not communicated in an interesting or evocative way and the elements underlying them vary from poor execution of excellent ideas at best to terrible execution of terrible ideas at worst.

    Mystery is also not the problem; we need mystery. Master's Glaive before Cataclysm was an example of a good mystery. Whispering Forest was a good mystery. WoW's current mysteries are forced and mainly matters of the narrative as opposed to worldbuilding. The old gods, prior to being totally demystified in Chronicles, were a mystery. Having major outlying mysteries in the lore is desirable, having the main villain's motive and personality being a mystery is not.
    Complexity and depth is only a problem because the writers are inept.
    I will not reply to posts that are non-constructive or contain flaming and/or trolling.

  10. #75590
    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post
    Complexity and depth is only a problem because the writers are inept.
    Yes, that's what I'm trying to sell, though I might be reluctant to make judgments of character like "the writers are inept" in lieu of less character-focused statements like "the writing is inept".
    "We will soon be in a world in which a man may be howled down for saying that two and two make four."
    — G.K. Chesterton

    You hate dracthyr because you hate scalies, I hate dracthyr because I'm a scalie and know naga are better. We are not the same.

  11. #75591
    A lightforged gorehowl just being a wacky coincidence is very funny. Come on.

  12. #75592
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Mystery is also not the problem; we need mystery. Master's Glaive before Cataclysm was an example of a good mystery. Whispering Forest was a good mystery. The old gods, prior to being totally demystified in Chronicles, were a mystery. The problem is that most of WoW's current mysteries are forced and are mainly matters of the narrative as opposed to natural results of good and compelling worldbuilding. Having major outlying mysteries in the lore is desirable, having the main villain's motive and personality being a mystery is not.
    Yeah thats what i meant with "mystery box"-style. Its not natural world-building mystery, its forced mystery for the sake of dangling it in front of the audiences face to keep them engaged. Its pretty often the sign of bad writing - if you cant find ways to keep the audience engaged naturally, just keep a few major plot points secret for no real reason so they want to find out what it is and keep consuming your product.
    The crooked shitposter with no eyes is watching from the endless thread.

    From the space that is everywhere and nowhere, the crooked shitposter feasts on memes.

    He has no eyes to see, but he dreams of infinite memeing and trolling.

  13. #75593
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    Its not natural world-building mystery, its forced mystery for the sake of dangling it in front of the audiences face to keep them engaged
    I see, then you're very right about that.
    "We will soon be in a world in which a man may be howled down for saying that two and two make four."
    — G.K. Chesterton

    You hate dracthyr because you hate scalies, I hate dracthyr because I'm a scalie and know naga are better. We are not the same.

  14. #75594
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    A lightforged gorehowl just being a wacky coincidence is very funny. Come on.
    I want to believe, but I think it's just as probable that it's a cool marketing image as it is hint at a Lightbound Garrosh. This replacing the old broken Gorehowl that was removed when the partnership dissolved is symbolic, yada yada.

    I think the biggest part of it is that I'm not too sure the Lightbound are poised to stay in WoD or Mag'har scenario. I think we'll be seeing them very soon.

    Please oh please give us back Garrosh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Mystery is also not the problem; we need mystery. Master's Glaive before Cataclysm was an example of a good mystery. Whispering Forest was a good mystery. The old gods, prior to being totally demystified in Chronicles, were a mystery. The problem is that most of WoW's current mysteries are forced and are mainly matters of the narrative as opposed to natural results of good and compelling worldbuilding. Having major outlying mysteries in the lore is desirable, having the main villain's motive and personality being a mystery is not.
    I think WoW's best current mystery is Elune. I love not really knowing what she is, but knowing she has a lot of sway with the higher powers we know.

  15. #75595
    Quote Originally Posted by milkmustache View Post
    I think WoW's best current mystery is Elune. I love not really knowing what she is, but knowing she has a lot of sway with the higher powers we know.
    Correction: was. We now know she was 3d printed in the factory associated with a vaguely-defined Pokemon type just like the other personality-deprived shells that make up the cosmic pantheons.
    "We will soon be in a world in which a man may be howled down for saying that two and two make four."
    — G.K. Chesterton

    You hate dracthyr because you hate scalies, I hate dracthyr because I'm a scalie and know naga are better. We are not the same.

  16. #75596
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    That appears to me like the scene at the end of Sanctum where he drops the pretense and reveals to Sylv that he duped her this whole time.

    See the pillars from the Arbiter's room in the corner.
    he never duped her
    thats why that scene makes no sense

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    Quote Originally Posted by milkmustache View Post
    Idk if you're implying Anduin or Faerin as the true heir, but that would be an insane turn to have Anduin go take over the Arathi empire. Not in a bad way at all, just very interesting lol.

    But to add onto the Arthurian idea of Avaloren, Faerin's "A DRAGON?! You're just casually friends with a legendary beast known to scour lands and grant wishes?" feels like something in that realm.
    i think if the arathi empire are just super into the light and only see it as like a great crusade then having Anduin the peace master go in and become the new ruler makes sense.

    theres also the scarlet crusade angle

  17. #75597
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Correction: was. We now know she was 3d printed in the factory associated with a vaguely-defined Pokemon type just like the other personality-deprived shells that make up the cosmic pantheons.
    Source for that ? Because most clues point towards her being part of the pantheon of life, and we know for sure that she is not an Eternal.
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  18. #75598
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zardas View Post
    Source for that ? Because most clues point towards her being part of the pantheon of life, and we know for sure that she is not an Eternal.
    It’s pretty much the the winter queen calling her sister, I believe.

    Though after DF with the incarnates not being related in any way but using sister and brother the winter queen doing the same thing could mean nothing.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  19. #75599
    Quote Originally Posted by Zardas View Post
    Source for that ? Because most clues point towards her being part of the pantheon of life, and we know for sure that she is not an Eternal.
    Implicitly, the pantheon of life and the pantheon of death — especially given they're parallels — would both be made of Zerethbots. She'd be from another Zereth, but a Zereth nonetheless.
    "We will soon be in a world in which a man may be howled down for saying that two and two make four."
    — G.K. Chesterton

    You hate dracthyr because you hate scalies, I hate dracthyr because I'm a scalie and know naga are better. We are not the same.

  20. #75600
    Over 9000! Golden Yak's Avatar
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    The implication with all of the Zereths being connected was that each one is the heart of one of the cosmic realms, and therefore likely to be the birthplace of all the cosmic pantheons. It's all First Ones tech bullshit. They built the Zereths and the gods that each oversee a cosmic power. It's all part of one interconnected design.

    Unless Blizzard decides that it's not, which they could.

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