The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[micwini]

This is really not true. People were complaining, because BfA was an absolute culmination of borrowed powers grind:
- Azerite gear, usually had to grind different set for each spec
- Essences - some of most popular Essences had ridiculous grind requirements (Blood of the Enemy rank 3 - 40k honor farmed), and they were NOT account shared.
- 8.2 Benthic gear for sockets, a noticeable power increase
- 8.3 Corruption gear - lots of grinding for highest rank, combined with legendary cloak lvl up

It was not vocal minority that complained about all of this. Each week I saw posts on Reddit begging Blizz to make Essences account-wide. Only patch 8.3 introduced a vendor that sold them, along with Corrupted gear. But of course, you had to grind the unified currency. Also, vendor offer was on a three weeks rotation.

BfA was definitely THE MOST grindy expansion in terms of player power. It is not a coincidence that SL greatly reduced the grind.

Reddit = vocal minority

[Makabreska]

Reddit = vocal minority

Ok, so there was no grind I just listed? Care to refer to that?

[Raetary]

So I got to wondering, the Pantheon, are they sealed in that little area with Sargeras and Illidan? I assumed they were all this time but looking things up I'm not 100% sure anymore.

They are all at the Seat of the Pantheon, yes.

They are the ones keeping Sargeras imprisoned.

[micwini]

Ok, so there was no grind I just listed? Care to refer to that?

Didnt say that. There was a grind and only a vocal minority didnt like it. People like deterministic things you can farm. AP wasn't an issue, it only was for the vocal minority that 'feels like' they have to always keep grinding. There was no point in grinding excessive amounts unless you were a top 0.1% raider.
Essences were a good grind: Some time and effort with a definitive endpoint

[KOUNTERPARTS]

You gotta wonder what's gonna be up with Illidan too. Did he make friends with the Titans? Did he also get thrown in jail? Has he been brain-washerd, orderized, or whatever?

I thought, at least back then, the titans used up what remained of their power to not only manifest Argus the Unmaker but to also contain Sargeras at the throne. I was under the impression they just... dissipated. Like dust in the wind.

Would be an interesting development if all of the Titan Pantheon + Sargeras has just been... sitting in their chairs for years, while Illidan is able to pace back and forth between the seats, keeping an eye on Sargeras. Like a dog in a very small kennel.

Illidan-- pacing exactly nine paces in each direction, never taking his gaze off of Sargeras. Blizzard had a golden opportunity to showcase that. A callback to this 10,000 years imprisonment.

[Lady Atia]

Didnt say that. There was a grind and only a vocal minority didnt like it. People like deterministic things you can farm. AP wasn't an issue, it only was for the vocal minority that 'feels like' they have to always keep grinding. There was no point in grinding excessive amounts unless you were a top 0.1% raider.
Essences were a good grind: Some time and effort with a definitive endpoint

I think I just good morning sickness. AP was always the issue, as far back as Legion were you couldn't play more than one spec at the start (especially if you got the wrong legendary on top), and I'm saying this as a person who usually prefers to play one spec per character anyways. Essences were also the biggest bullshit ever, on par with their conduit cousins from Shadowlands. On top of that, all of the shit you had to farm in order to play a patch were gone as soon as the next Expansion hit .... if they had build on artifacts in Legion the whole system could have worked, but making everything irrelevant after an expansion is literally the antithesis to WoW. What made this game big is that whatever you invested stayed for your character for ever, which only got solidified when WotLK prepatch hit thanks to achievements, and even more so with transmog and other collections.

Even corruptions were only cool as long as there was no vendor (yes, hang me) since as soon as you could choose which corruptions to use you were stuck with your "bis" corruptions, so it was all just a grind with an illusion of choice anyways. Twillight Dev was fun as a tank though as long as you didn't had to get versa ones because your key level got over 21.

[loras]

I think I just good morning sickness. AP was always the issue, as far back as Legion were you couldn't play more than one spec at the start (especially if you got the wrong legendary on top), and I'm saying this as a person who usually prefers to play one spec per character anyways. Essences were also the biggest bullshit ever, on par with their conduit cousins from Shadowlands. On top of that, all of the shit you had to farm in order to play a patch were gone as soon as the next Expansion hit .... if they had build on artifacts in Legion the whole system could have worked, but making everything irrelevant after an expansion is literally the antithesis to WoW. What made this game big is that whatever you invested stayed for your character for ever, which only got solidified when WotLK prepatch hit thanks to achievements, and even more so with transmog and other collections.

Even corruptions were only cool as long as there was no vendor (yes, hang me) since as soon as you could choose which corruptions to use you were stuck with your "bis" corruptions, so it was all just a grind with an illusion of choice anyways. Twillight Dev was fun as a tank though as long as you didn't had to get versa ones because your key level got over 21.

Systems will always converge on optimal solutions, which only become mandatory at the most testing of difficulties.
Sounds like the issue would be better solved by axing those solutions which demand too much optimisation (where possible).

[Santandame]

I think I just good morning sickness. AP was always the issue, as far back as Legion were you couldn't play more than one spec at the start (especially if you got the wrong legendary on top), and I'm saying this as a person who usually prefers to play one spec per character anyways. Essences were also the biggest bullshit ever, on par with their conduit cousins from Shadowlands. On top of that, all of the shit you had to farm in order to play a patch were gone as soon as the next Expansion hit .... if they had build on artifacts in Legion the whole system could have worked, but making everything irrelevant after an expansion is literally the antithesis to WoW. What made this game big is that whatever you invested stayed for your character for ever, which only got solidified when WotLK prepatch hit thanks to achievements, and even more so with transmog and other collections.

Even corruptions were only cool as long as there was no vendor (yes, hang me) since as soon as you could choose which corruptions to use you were stuck with your "bis" corruptions, so it was all just a grind with an illusion of choice anyways. Twillight Dev was fun as a tank though as long as you didn't had to get versa ones because your key level got over 21.

These are player made problems personal to you. Nothing was unplayable. You chose to pursue each grind, and you deemed your character to be unplayable if it didn’t have the “optimal” traits or essences. When in reality, your character or spec wasn’t unplayable in the slightest.

Saying you couldn’t play a spec if you got the wrong legendary is an absolutely ludicrous comment.


As a casual player in Legion and BfA, I never had an issue with swapping between specs in both Legion & BfA and I never felt weaker. This was all the while still pushing relatively high keys. I had fun with what I played and the tools available to me, and my progression never suffered as a result. I played solidly throughout Legion and BfA. Shadowlands was the first expansion to have me stop playing.

BfA was decent, for me anyway. I’d quite happily return to it. It’s nowhere near as bad as Shadowlands or WoD were, for me.

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Systems will always converge on optimal solutions, which only become mandatory at the most testing of difficulties.
Sounds like the issue would be better solved by axing those solutions which demand too much optimisation (where possible).

Too many players try to emulate the elite/0.01%/everything they read online and then try to bend themselves out of shape whilst jumping through hoops in an attempt to justify how it is relevant to them when down to its very fundamentals it isn’t. It’s literally herd mentality and monkey see monkey do.

[loras]

These are player made problems personal to you. Nothing was unplayable. You chose to pursue each grind, and you deemed your character to be unplayable if it didn’t have the “optimal” traits oressences.

As a casual player in Legion and BfA, I never had an issue with swapping between specs in both Legion & BfA and I never felt weaker. This was all the while still pushing relatively high keys. I had fun with what I played and the tools available to me, and my progression never suffered as a result. I played solidly throughout Legion and BfA. Shadowlands was the first expansion to have me stop playing.

Saying you couldn’t play a spec if you got the wrong legendary is an absolutely ludicrous comment.

BfA was decent, for me anyway. I’d quite happily return to it. It’s nowhere near as bad as Shadowlands or WoD were, for me.

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Too many players try to emulate the elite/0.01%/everything they read online and then try to bend themselves out of shape whilst jumping through hoops in an attempt to justify how it is relevant to them when down to its very fundamentals it isn’t.

Fair, but you can't remove that.
You can remove the elite, or rather the stuff used to make them special.

[Makorus]

These are player made problems personal to you. Nothing was unplayable. You chose to pursue each grind, and you deemed your character to be unplayable if it didn’t have the “optimal” traits or essences. When in reality, your character or spec wasn’t unplayable in the slightest.

Saying you couldn’t play a spec if you got the wrong legendary is an absolutely ludicrous comment.


As a casual player in Legion and BfA, I never had an issue with swapping between specs in both Legion & BfA and I never felt weaker. This was all the while still pushing relatively high keys. I had fun with what I played and the tools available to me, and my progression never suffered as a result. I played solidly throughout Legion and BfA. Shadowlands was the first expansion to have me stop playing.

BfA was decent, for me anyway. I’d quite happily return to it. It’s nowhere near as bad as Shadowlands or WoD were, for me.

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Too many players try to emulate the elite/0.01%/everything they read online and then try to bend themselves out of shape whilst jumping through hoops in an attempt to justify how it is relevant to them when down to its very fundamentals it isn’t. It’s literally herd mentality and monkey see monkey do.

Sorry but that argument literally is pointless to anyone that did more than casual Normal raids.

Yeah, I could theoretically play with worse Legendaries, and with being like 5-6 Artifact levels behind, however at that point, I am severely holding my guild and my group back and actively make it harder for them simply because I didn't no life-grind it. Also, some classes were like 20-30% DPS behind based on what legendaries they got.

Plus, the problem with open-ended systems like that is that balancing always suffers, because either they balance it towards the higher end where it's impossible without being pretty far along or towards the lower-side where it's a "Who cares" tier that takes like 3-4 weeks like EN.

The whole "Bro, you don't have to do it" always seems to come from people who never really stepped much outside of entry level raids/M+.

[Lady Atia]

Sorry but that argument literally is pointless to anyone that did more than casual Normal raids.

Yeah, I could theoretically play with worse Legendaries, and with being like 5-6 Artifact levels behind, however at that point, I am severely holding my guild and my group back and actively make it harder for them simply because I didn't no life-grind it. Also, some classes were like 20-30% DPS behind based on what legendaries they got.

Plus, the problem with open-ended systems like that is that balancing always suffers, because either they balance it towards the higher end where it's impossible without being pretty far along or towards the lower-side where it's a "Who cares" tier that takes like 3-4 weeks like EN.

The whole "Bro, you don't have to do it" always seems to come from people who never really stepped much outside of entry level raids/M+.

Yeah, it's like people who think you don't need a legendary in order to properly play evoker/dk/pala/warri rn. Of course you can if it's an alt and you wanna do shitty low keys or hc raids, but I wouldn't take anyone without the leggi in my main roster or for weekly keys etc lol.

[Auxis]

I thought, at least back then, the titans used up what remained of their power to not only manifest Argus the Unmaker but to also contain Sargeras at the throne. I was under the impression they just... dissipated. Like dust in the wind.

Would be an interesting development if all of the Titan Pantheon + Sargeras has just been... sitting in their chairs for years, while Illidan is able to pace back and forth between the seats, keeping an eye on Sargeras. Like a dog in a very small kennel.

Illidan-- pacing exactly nine paces in each direction, never taking his gaze off of Sargeras. Blizzard had a golden opportunity to showcase that. A callback to this 10,000 years imprisonment.

Never thought of it like that. The irony that the hunter became the hunted (Illidan and Maiev @ Black Temple), and then the prisoner becomes the warden (Illidan and Sargeras).

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Never thought of it like that. The irony that the hunter became the hunted (Illidan and Maiev @ Black Temple), and then the prisoner becomes the warden (Illidan and Sargeras).

One of the better "coming full circle" stories Blizzard has told in WoW.

[Santandame]

Sorry but that argument literally is pointless to anyone that did more than casual Normal raids.

Yeah, I could theoretically play with worse Legendaries, and with being like 5-6 Artifact levels behind, however at that point, I am severely holding my guild and my group back and actively make it harder for them simply because I didn't no life-grind it. Also, some classes were like 20-30% DPS behind based on what legendaries they got.

Plus, the problem with open-ended systems like that is that balancing always suffers, because either they balance it towards the higher end where it's impossible without being pretty far along or towards the lower-side where it's a "Who cares" tier that takes like 3-4 weeks like EN.

The whole "Bro, you don't have to do it" always seems to come from people who never really stepped much outside of entry level raids/M+.

Wild comment.

Having a legendary that’s not considered BiS was most certainly not holding your guild back from progression.

I was regularly doing 17+ keys in Legion, and whilst that certainly isn’t cutting edge, it certainly isn’t entry level either. I didn’t get what was considered BiS for my classes well into the final patch of the expansion. So your final point is null and holds no weight at all. In fact, I am looking at my Death Knight’s raider IO profile right now for my Legion runs where I was regularly timing 18’s as a tank where I certainly didn’t have the BiS blood legendary and at times even tanked those keys in FROST legendaries.

If not having a BiS legendary or being 3-4 artifact levels behind the curve meant the difference between your guild or group not progressing, and you weren’t the very top of cutting edge, then the issue glaringly didn’t lie with the system.

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Yeah, it's like people who think you don't need a legendary in order to properly play evoker/dk/pala/warri rn. Of course you can if it's an alt and you wanna do shitty low keys or hc raids, but I wouldn't take anyone without the leggi in my main roster or for weekly keys etc lol.

This attitude sums it up perfectly.

[micwini]

I think I just good morning sickness. AP was always the issue, as far back as Legion were you couldn't play more than one spec at the start (especially if you got the wrong legendary on top), and I'm saying this as a person who usually prefers to play one spec per character anyways. Essences were also the biggest bullshit ever, on par with their conduit cousins from Shadowlands. On top of that, all of the shit you had to farm in order to play a patch were gone as soon as the next Expansion hit .... if they had build on artifacts in Legion the whole system could have worked, but making everything irrelevant after an expansion is literally the antithesis to WoW. What made this game big is that whatever you invested stayed for your character for ever, which only got solidified when WotLK prepatch hit thanks to achievements, and even more so with transmog and other collections.

Even corruptions were only cool as long as there was no vendor (yes, hang me) since as soon as you could choose which corruptions to use you were stuck with your "bis" corruptions, so it was all just a grind with an illusion of choice anyways. Twillight Dev was fun as a tank though as long as you didn't had to get versa ones because your key level got over 21.

This kindly resonates with my point. Most of these things re solved by the player by not caring to be absolutely minmaxed.

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Yeah, it's like people who think you don't need a legendary in order to properly play evoker/dk/pala/warri rn. Of course you can if it's an alt and you wanna do shitty low keys or hc raids, but I wouldn't take anyone without the leggi in my main roster or for weekly keys etc lol.

Yeah, so you're basically complaining about issues that you as an individual also create by your behavior?
I wouldn't give a shit if someone didnt have lego in weekly keys. Yeah you're going to be dps behind compared to someone who does, but in the end it doesnt matter unless you're pushing cutting edge keys.

[Santandame]

This kindly resonates with my point. Most of these things re solved by the player by not caring to be absolutely minmaxed.

It’s literally a player created issue, and not an actual one. The person you quoted has just stated that they wouldn’t invite an Evoker/DK/Warrior/Paladin to their group if they didn’t have the associated legendary. I don’t think they realise that they aren’t actually making a good argument for the point they are attempting to make. It reeks of exactly what I stated earlier; attempting to emulate the 0.01%/cutting edge/whatever they read online and bending themself out of shape to justify it. Pepper in some lovely elitism for good measure.

[Dracullus]

Today I learned people complainted about BfA systems were vocal minority, apparently people were loving it and evil elitists took it from us.

Never change mmochamps.

[Flaks]

Today I learned people complainted about BfA systems were vocal minority, apparently people were loving it and evil elitists took it from us.

Never change mmochamps.

I unironically think this.

[Lady Atia]

It’s literally a player created issue, and not an actual one. The person you quoted has just stated that they wouldn’t invite an Evoker/DK/Warrior/Paladin to their group if they didn’t have the associated legendary. I don’t think they realise that they aren’t actually making a good argument for the point they are attempting to make. It reeks of exactly what I stated earlier; attempting to emulate the 0.01%/cutting edge/whatever they read online and bending themself out of shape to justify it. Pepper in some lovely elitism for good measure.

Ehm no, I'm a cutting edge player and I see the legendaries as part of character care at this point in time, not different than using food, flasks or embellishments. If you didn't get the leggi on your main rn you did something wrong, or rerolled a few weeks ago. There is no excuse for not having one lol.

[Santandame]

Today I learned people complainted about BfA systems were vocal minority, apparently people were loving it and evil elitists took it from us.

Never change mmochamps.

Don’t you literally defend every expansion whilst it’s current and then when that expansion is in the previous cycle and something else is current you move onto criticising it?

You were very vocal for your defence of Legion, BfA and SL whilst they were current content.

Your comment is hyperbolic. No one said that everyone loved the grinds. I however am arguing that I enjoyed those systems and that you absolutely did not have to have BiS gear or essences to progress unless you were cutting edge.

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Ehm no, I'm a cutting edge player and I see the legendaries as part of character care at this point in time, not different than using food, flasks or embellishments. If you didn't get the leggi on your main rn you did something wrong, or rerolled a few weeks ago. There is no excuse for not having one lol.

Exactly. That’s how YOU personally view it.