The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Joshuaj]

There's no evidence of them being in any way connected to Naaru. That's based on some people equivocating The Light with any light whatsoever.

Ik, that's why I said headcanon

[Xilurm]

Well, that's disappointing then. So much for retconning away garbage from Shadowlands.

[Joshuaj]

Well, that's disappointing then. So much for retconning away garbage from Shadowlands.

Did you really expect them to retcon that? Dude SL is very important to the lore...

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Also, if it helps, Chronicle calls the Progenitors a myth, tho we have an in universe reason for why they're called that

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Wait, did someone get the book already or?

[Dracullus]

Well, that's disappointing then. So much for retconning away garbage from Shadowlands.

As long game is still alive, won't gonna happen. Since WoW start there were no major hard retcons - by which I mean changing events or places we witnessed first hand (I clarify because definitions are blurry and I think we have enough pointless lore discussion here). It will be probably get WoD silent treatment and Chronicle IV is last time we hear about it.

[Joshuaj]

As long game is still alive, won't gonna happen. Since WoW start there were no major hard retcons - by which I mean changing events or places we witnessed first hand (I clarify because definitions are blurry and I think we have enough pointless lore discussion here). It will be probably get WoD silent treatment and Chronicle IV is last time we hear about it.

Me'dan says hi

[Xilurm]

Did you really expect them to retcon that? Dude SL is very important to the lore...

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Also, if it helps, Chronicle calls the Progenitors a myth, tho we have an in universe reason for why they're called that

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Wait, did someone get the book already or?

As long game is still alive, won't gonna happen. Since WoW start there were no major hard retcons - by which I mean changing events or places we witnessed first hand (I clarify because definitions are blurry and I think we have enough pointless lore discussion here). It will be probably get WoD silent treatment and Chronicle IV is last time we hear about it.

I'm talking about believable things like Denathrius being behind everything instead of the Jailer etc. which have been discussed here before.

[allegrian]

Bfa's warfronts and islands were boring as fuck, expansion got carried by leveling zones and quests, music, and partisan faction war hype at the start.

Kul Tiras remains as some of the best continents added in recent memory. Design, questing, story and music is perfect.

[Joshuaj]

I'm talking about believable things like Denathrius being behind everything instead of the Jailer etc. which have been discussed here before.

Yeah and that's stupid, considering the Jailer's quite literally the Devil. He should be the one behind everything in SL, not Denathrius. Denathrius was always more of the charming side-guy, similar to Lucius Malfroy.

[Xilurm]

Yeah and that's stupid, considering the Jailer's quite literally the Devil.

I mean if you want to look at it that way you can make that connection sure, but that can also be done with Sargeras.

However I don't see how it's stupid to think that the guy who created the most manipulative race in the cosmos, is also a master manipulator himself and roped the Jailer into his schemes. It would actually be way more consistent with past lore as well. Seeing as the Jailer was revealed to have been behind so many things, it's lame because the Jailer has a goal, while Denathrius and his Dreadlords are simply agents of chaos, and that's exactly what they did, making sure everyone just keeps fighting each other. In order to sow more chaos, not "reshape the universe because of some unforeseen threat."

[Joshuaj]

I mean if you want to look at it that way you can make that connection sure, but that can also be done with Sargeras.

However I don't see how it's stupid to think that the guy who created the most manipulative race in the cosmos, is also a master manipulator himself and roped the Jailer into his schemes. It would actually be way more consistent with past lore as well. Seeing as the Jailer was revealed to have been behind so many things, it's lame because the Jailer has a goal, while Denathrius and his Dreadlords are simply agents of chaos, and that's exactly what they did, making sure everyone just keeps fighting each other. In order to sow more chaos, not "reshape the universe because of some unforeseen threat."

Outside of design and the fact he rules over demons, I wouldn't compare Sargeras with the Devil. Instead, I'd compare him to someone like Unicron or summ.

While the Jailer definitely lacks that devil aspect in look, he certainly fits it better in terms of role and purpose for the story. Hell, he literally hates the creators and their design. That's totally taken from the Devils hatred towards God's design.

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Also, I don't think Denathrius would like to rope against the Jailer. Reminder that he too was probably pissed that his brethren went against the Jailer's rebellion, especially since he was the first Arbiter, and his rebellion would've resulted in Death taking over everything. That just seems too good to be true. I'd rather be on his side than ploy against him, especially since he was my brother and OG Arbiter. Bro was chill.

[Nathanyel]

The best argument against the login screen so far.

I thought the issue was that it wasn't a hole er "portal".

[Dracullus]

Bfa's warfronts and islands were boring as fuck, expansion got carried by leveling zones and quests, music, and partisan faction war hype at the start.

Kul Tiras remains as some of the best continents added in recent memory. Design, questing, story and music is perfect.

Agree with warfronts, but no for islands, they were pretty engaging (if you pick proper difficulty of course, without that dungeons are boring too). Problem of islands (and torghast) was making it a chore to farm essential currency. People would hate Mage Tower too if it was builded this way.

Zones and instances always have high quality, personally from modern expansion I think MoP is weakest, yet for some it's favourite. But for sure BfA was big step up if we talk about size of zones - all 6 are closer to Suramar than 4 Legion leveling areas.

[Eldryth]

With all this Chronicles talk, I just remembered about a question I've had for a while about Shadowlands- does it clarify how the loss of the Presence (when the Helm of Domination was destroyed, mentioned in the short story We Ride Forth) affected Death Knights? I've been curious about that for a long time since the story talked about them being vaguely more free with the Helm gone, but does that mean that the Eternal Hunger is gone? Are their positive emotions still suppressed?

And the Crown of Wills too- they didn't really show if it affected them at all, but if those issues are tied to Domination magic, wouldn't the Crown cure them?

As it is, they made a point to say that getting rid of the Presence was a big deal for DKs, but left it vague and never followed up on it.

[Enrif]

Well, the date is there and i got the kindle version of the book.

I just skimmed over it. Nothing really mayor that we don't know.

It clearly states that Argus was a world soul. That at the final fight with argus the Pantheon tried to sever the ties between Argus and Sargeras, but failed due Sargeras ordering Argus to attack instead.

The energies of sargeras swords are explained as fel.

The start of the shadowlands chapter explains the myth, and it has a interesting part in it, which i think was not as clearly explained as it is in the book. There it is stated, there are 6 first ones: Light, Shadow, Life, Death, Order, Disorder. With perhaps another first one which they don't know what it is.

Interesting is, the first ones, i think most would think, were never given a description of what they are. But here they state that the first ones are the cosmic forces. Light, Shadow, Life, Death, Order, Disorder. Which turns the first ones from "titans but more mysterious" into something totally different. If a first one is a source of a cosmic power, might the Zereths be the first ones?
And the seventh first one, a zereth that is not aligned with a cosmic force yet? ... a zereth -> Azereth -> Azeroth? Also a A- prefix denotes many different things, like not being something (symmetrical -> asymmetrical)?

Edit: heres the full text from that entry

Though this tome previously set forth the creation of the physical universe, the Pantheon of Death believed differently. A myth had taken root in the Shadowlands, centered around a group of mysterious and enigmatic beings known as the First Ones. Their number varies according to perspective, but the Eternal Ones believed there to be six: Light, Shadow, Order, Disorder, Life, and Death. Some believed in a seventh power, but its nature was unclear. These First Ones existed in constant conflict with one another, until opposition became balance, and battle became creation. A design was formed, a pattern was drawn, and each gave something of itself to this manifestation. These interactions birthed children of their kind, who existed similarly in both harmony and discord. Within this mythos, the denizens of the Shadowlands believed every sentient creature in the universe sprang from the original patterns fashioned by these First Ones. The belief holds that these beings created the titan Pantheon, the Old Gods, the naaru. They supposedly formed the realms of the living and also the dead—the Shadowlands—and its pantheon, the Eternal Ones.

[Varodoc]

The Warcraft team should borrow some ideas from the Overwatch team and turn the First Ones into the Zereths, like the God Program AIs in Overwatch.

https://overwatch.fandom.com/wiki/God_program


This will also leave the door open for the Before Ones. Because, well... who built these facilities, which are the First Ones? It must have been the Before Ones.

[Super Dickmann]

The start of the shadowlands chapter explains the myth, and it has a interesting part in it, which i think was not as clearly explained as it is in the book. There it is stated, there are 6 first ones: Light, Shadow, Life, Death, Order, Disorder. With perhaps another first one which they don't know what it is.

Interesting is, the first ones, i think most would think, were never given a description of what they are. But here they state that the first ones are the cosmic forces. Light, Shadow, Life, Death, Order, Disorder. Which turns the first ones from "titans but more mysterious" into something totally different. If a first one is a source of a cosmic power, might the Zereths be the first ones?

A surprisingly good save on the part of the writers on that point, especially as they further cover themselves in being able to write them out entirely, as the text is careful to make the First Ones being actual entities entirely a religious belief on the part of the SL leaders rather than an in-universe fact. So you could easily have the Zereths themselves be the First Ones, or in keeping with the Sepulcher thing, have them have scattered into their respective progenitor realms. This also saves you from having to characterize them and completely dodges the Titans 2.0 issue.

[Timester]

Well, the date is there and i got the kindle version of the book.

I just skimmed over it. Nothing really mayor that we don't know.

It clearly states that Argus was a world soul. That at the final fight with argus the Pantheon tried to sever the ties between Argus and Sargeras, but failed due Sargeras ordering Argus to attack instead.

The energies of sargeras swords are explained as fel.

The start of the shadowlands chapter explains the myth, and it has a interesting part in it, which i think was not as clearly explained as it is in the book. There it is stated, there are 6 first ones: Light, Shadow, Life, Death, Order, Disorder. With perhaps another first one which they don't know what it is.

Interesting is, the first ones, i think most would think, were never given a description of what they are. But here they state that the first ones are the cosmic forces. Light, Shadow, Life, Death, Order, Disorder. Which turns the first ones from "titans but more mysterious" into something totally different. If a first one is a source of a cosmic power, might the Zereths be the first ones?
And the seventh first one, a zereth that is not aligned with a cosmic force yet? ... a zereth -> Azereth -> Azeroth? Also a A- prefix denotes many different things, like not being something (symmetrical -> asymmetrical)?

Edit: heres the full text from that entry

It's nothing more than Blizzard saying that "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain". Yes, Shadowlands lore has to be acknowledged, but is the same as the Chronicles lore, an interpretation from someone's PoV.

That's why in the TWiW there is a book saying that any type of cosmic chart is wrong, that for example a flame can be Fire for the elementals but Light for the Arathi, and the "need" to creates charts and boxes only hinders the potential of true powerful mages and beings.


At the end of the day, they are just cosmic forces trying to justify their own ideology. The same way the Titans are trying to forcefully "Ordering" Azeroth's World Soul into a Titan herself, that's why there is an event quest where we have to fight Azeroth's bad memories of Earthen and Mechagnomes carving the land.

[allegrian]

I'm kinda ok with this new version of the first ones but I still don't like that the titans themselves might be created as robots as well.

[Santandame]

I mean, I didn't go from that to this at all, as both are independent points.

You are holding your guild and your group back by having the BIS Legendary, and aren't trying to stay ahead of the curve of the AP grind.

That's like saying that "Oh, only 1% should care if your raiders show up without enchants or without fully upgraded gear", which would be a ridiculous claim to make.



No weapon drop or trinket drop had as big of a % difference in terms of one item slot. If you have roughly the same ilvl, but one player has two BIS trinkets, and the other one has shit trinkets, the DPS wouldn't be as big as the difference between the BIS Legendary and the worst legendary, especially because all the utility legendaries were garbage at the start of Legion.



That's just revisionist BS. The majority of players hated the system because it was needlessly punishing and you literally couldn't get more than three legendaries for the longest time. Not being able to get the best legendary for your spec until like 7.2/7.3 because you just didn't get lucky and permanently being gimped because someone else got luckier at the start of the expansion is a fucking terrible feeling for an RPG, and yes, that was a thing that was possible.

Here's an image of someone tracking his legendary drops, for example.






Yes, it was. Generally for most specs it was at least a 15% DPS difference.

Context behind the graph you’ve linked? It’s not actually providing any empirical evidence or damage figures. It’s just someone’s sun graph with some numbers. I’m not doubting that certain legendaries were much better performance wise, I never doubted that once - I’m doubting your claim that not having the BiS legendary for your spec would be holding your guild or group back from progressing a boss or key. It wouldn’t have been, that’s a ludicrous comment to make and would have only effected the very minute of high end players pushing the peak of content. As I said, if not having the optimal legendary was holding your guild or group back - the issue definitely did not lie with the legendary system.

According to the graph you linked, the optimal damage output legendary for Frost DK’s were Aggramar’s Strides, if I’m reading the graph right? The legendary that increases the movement speed by 70%? Well, I suppose every single relevant guide out there at the time was wrong, it wasn’t the waist or wrist you wanted as a Frost DK, it was the movement speed boots? Sorry for not putting much faith in your evidence.

And no, my own personal experiences and opinions, as that is what you quoted, is not revisionist history. You don’t know me, or how I played so you can’t tell me that what I’m saying I enjoyed is me revising how I actually felt.

[Lahis]

The Warcraft team should borrow some ideas from the Overwatch team and turn the First Ones into the Zereths, like the God Program AIs in Overwatch.

https://overwatch.fandom.com/wiki/God_program


This will also leave the door open for the Before Ones. Because, well... who built these facilities, which are the First Ones? It must have been the Before Ones.

Naturally they'll introduce Firster Ones once we have faced off against the First Ones. There must always be a bigger fish.