The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Joshuaj]

You entirely miss my point. I'm saying that having a six-pronged chart of fully-equal, strictly-categorized (but far from well-defined) cosmic forces reduced to nothing but set pieces portrayed to the audience through pantheons of boring, personality-deprived shells was the underlying mistake.

Elaborate?

[Enrif]

It's just inconsistent then. The word titan can either be capitalized or not capitalized as well

most likely. Still, i'm not sure i would call Invalidus a void lord, as it may just be a buffed up voidwalker instead. Blizzard really needs to distinguish the name and meaning between void lord (capital big bads) and voidlords (buff voidwalkers)

Unless... What if the Void lords, are just voidwalkers? But they are myriad, reflecting the voids thing about thousands truths and all possible ways. Each void lord is a true void lord, but also just a voidwalker... until it is time for them to be a big bad. would be to high of a concept perhaps, but a fascinating idea.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Elaborate?

I don't know if this needs elaboration because I'm fairly convinced the original summary was a concise and very clear explanation of my gripes, but I'll make an effort:

The Cosmic Forces system, as it presently exists, is about as interesting as dried glue. Instead of presenting a set of fundamental underlying forces that govern reality as we perceive it, each force is useful only to present us with a new array of extradimensional aliens with a new color scheme and to provide total compartmentalization to types of magic that were previously far from compartmentalized (e.g. there suddenly being a strict line between the Fel, shadow magic, and necromancy where that line was previously very thin).

The Cosmic Forces, in fact, are neither cosmic nor forces. They only feel "cosmic" in the sense that Capeshit is "cosmic" (e.g. increasingly high stakes that gradually become white noise) and not in the sense of actually providing a coherent cosmology to the setting. They are only "forces" in the sense of being the equivalent to geopolitical forces on a higher scale squabbling over control of the Super Spehsul Planet instead of being actual forces of nature with a fundamental impact on reality.

Their equality also comes to their detriment. Rather than showing the forces as existing on different levels of reality, some existing within others or as the result of two others overlapping, the six must simultaneously sum to every observable quality of reality and be on relatively even footing. This makes it difficult to lend any level of nuance to their interactions and, again, makes them feel more like competing factions of colorful aliens instead of fundamental forces.

More critically than equality is their perfect symmetry in every other way: they all came from a Zereth, prototyped and their rulers 3d printed by the First Ones. They all have a realm, they all have an associated magic, they all have a Pantheon, they all have a competing force. They're all equally bad in the absence of the other forces, or so Blizzard wants to twist their preexisting lore to hammer in, and they all want to claim Azeroth's world-soul because Muh Spehsul Planet. Yawn, bye-bye any possibility of actually expressing their alleged differences through the circumstances of their manifestation and their self-management.

Their avatars are easily the worst parts of these forces. All else could be forgiven if it weren't for the fact that these factions manifest in the most boring conceivable way: as I said earlier, their pantheons are just monomaniacal aliens deprived of nuance whose psychology and physiology is near-human in every way except for those ways that make humans interesting. Rather than being as the embodiments of fundamental forces of reality should be, — transcendent, confusing, alien, and possibly still relatively humanlike at their core at the end of the day, — these pantheons are sets of people, one and all, wearing silly face paint and rattling off their critical buzzwords (muh Infinite Possibilities, muh One True Path, muh Order, muh Cycle) until they cease to have any meaning while their associated Disney Hadeses go off to claim the World-Soul.

[Joshuaj]

most likely. Still, i'm not sure i would call Invalidus a void lord, as it may just be a buffed up voidwalker instead. Blizzard really needs to distinguish the name and meaning between void lord (capital big bads) and voidlords (buff voidwalkers)

Unless... What if the Void lords, are just voidwalkers? But they are myriad, reflecting the voids thing about thousands truths and all possible ways. Each void lord is a true void lord, but also just a voidwalker... until it is time for them to be a big bad. would be to high of a concept perhaps, but a fascinating idea.

The Void Lords are most likely akin to WoWs Outer Gods. The names are even similar, funny enough lol.

Pretty sure Invalidus would just be a fraction of a Void Lords' true power, akin to Dimensius and (debatably) Pandemonius

[Monkal]

@LeConceptuel

Not to be that guy but at least for me part of the reason your points don't always seem to be clear is because you write like you were trying to parody teenagers writing or something like that.

Regarding your actual points: I agree that there's a lack of clarity in how Light and Order specifically are different is a problem. I completely disagree in regards to the avatars, I think that if there is one aspect Blizzard has done right regarding the Pantheons is how above you they feel when compared to mortal characters. They may not feel alien enough, I agree on that, but they do feel transcendent. I also feel that you're overstating a bit on the cosmic war stuff: sure, you have folks like Denathrius or maybe Dimensius who wish to further their Force's reach, but consider how the other Eternal Ones or even some Titans (remember Eonar and Elune being besties?) just seem to want to carry on their duties. I agree on the fact that each Force having its own Zereth is dull, but the new details about the Zereths themselves being the manifestation of the First Ones help mitigate that.

[Joshuaj]

@LeConceptuel

Not to be that guy but at least for me part of the reason your points don't always seem to be clear is because you write like you were trying to parody teenagers writing or something like that.

Regarding your actual points: I agree that there's a lack of clarity in how Light and Order specifically are different is a problem. I completely disagree in regards to the avatars, I think that if there is one aspect Blizzard has done right regarding the Pantheons is how above you they feel when compared to mortal characters. They may not feel alien enough, I agree on that, but they do feel transcendent. I also feel that you're overstating a bit on the cosmic war stuff: sure, you have folks like Denathrius or maybe Dimensius who wish to further their Force's reach, but consider how the other Eternal Ones or even some Titans (remember Eonar and Elune being besties?) just seem to want to carry on their duties. I agree on the fact that each Force having its own Zereth is dull, but the new details about the Zereths themselves being the manifestation of the First Ones help mitigate that.

I wouldn't consider the Zereths as manifestations of the Progenitors, more like extensions of them

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I agree that there's a lack of clarity in how Light and Order specifically are different is a problem.

That's hardly the end of it. There's also the bit about how the relationships between these unnecessarily-compartmentalized forces is totally ridiculous in light of earlier lore and the established functions of different kinds of magic pre-Chronicles.

I think that if there is one aspect Blizzard has done right regarding the Pantheons is how above you they feel when compared to mortal characters. They may not feel alien enough, I agree on that, but they do feel transcendent.

> m-muh sister i was just trying to give u the souls
> no u sent them all to the soul-grinder
> o
> it's ok u didn't know i forgive u

A real sterling portrayal of transcendent beings right there. Really feel like I'm listening to a psychopomp and an avatar of the concept of life itself speaking to one another.

I also feel that you're overstating a bit on the cosmic war stuff: sure, you have folks like Denathrius or maybe Dimensius who wish to further their Force's reach, but consider how the other Eternal Ones or even some Titans (remember Eonar and Elune being besties?) just seem to want to carry on their duties.

You're missing my point. What I'm saying isn't that they should all be doing their vaguely-defined jobs and holding hands, it's that the nature of the cosmic conflict in itself is totally nonsensical and the relationships the cosmic forces have with one another in general are by and large utterly uninteresting.

[doledippers]

the section about nyalotha in chronicle 4 confirms there are 5 old gods

[Reive]

i'm seeing a lot of doomposting on twitter about the new book. how shit is it?

[Lady Atia]

the section about nyalotha in chronicle 4 confirms there are 5 old gods

Yeah, and the Pandaria section says there were 4 when the Titans arrived, confirming that number 5 was nomnomed by the others.

[Joshuaj]

Yeah, and the Pandaria section says there were 4 when the Titans arrived, confirming that number 5 was nomnomed by the others.

I still think the 5th is Xal'atath, and that Order is just calling her an Old God, even tho she's actually not but is somewhat related to them. It is possible she was a Void creature meant to unify the Old Gods, but the Old Gods said "fuck you" and devoured her.

[Murlocos]

The retcon to make the entire BfA Horde leveling experience not take place until after they break Ashvane out of Tol Dagor in 8.1 is so stupid that it's funnier than any First Ones nuances. The Alliance now just randomly invades Zandalar for no reason because the Horde doesn't break out Zul and Talanji until after the entirety of Kul Tiras questing and the whole Horde war campaign is just ???

Easily the most unexpected gold from this book, I can't believe this got published. Let's make Amirdrassil take place before Aberrus in Chronicle 5.

[Joshuaj]

"Zovaal was the strongest of the Eternal Ones"

Get. Fucked. All. Of. You.

[Reive]

"Zovaal was the strongest of the Eternal Ones"

Get. Fucked. All. Of. You.

the primus still mogs him

[micwini]

New Void Lord named Invalidus is namedropped in Chronicles.

Also confirmation of a fifth old god that disappeared by the time the Titans arrived.

From voidbound, to wheelchair bound...

[Aucald]

Regarding your actual points: I agree that there's a lack of clarity in how Light and Order specifically are different is a problem. I completely disagree in regards to the avatars, I think that if there is one aspect Blizzard has done right regarding the Pantheons is how above you they feel when compared to mortal characters. They may not feel alien enough, I agree on that, but they do feel transcendent. I also feel that you're overstating a bit on the cosmic war stuff: sure, you have folks like Denathrius or maybe Dimensius who wish to further their Force's reach, but consider how the other Eternal Ones or even some Titans (remember Eonar and Elune being besties?) just seem to want to carry on their duties. I agree on the fact that each Force having its own Zereth is dull, but the new details about the Zereths themselves being the manifestation of the First Ones help mitigate that.

I view the Light as being more about essential unity as opposed to Order - its focus isn't on the mechanistic logistics of disparate processes, but rather on the essential interconnectedness of all things, a harmony of unity that connects back to a singular point at its extreme. Similarly, the Zereth installations aren't the *source* of any given primordial energy or essence - they're just infrastructure presumably created by the First Ones to support and direct said energies, along predefined channels to support the metacosm the First Ones (presumably) devised. We also don't know if every Force actually has its own Zereth installation or was ever intended to, either. Perhaps in some realms they aren't necessary, or even feasible.

[Super Dickmann]

The retcon to make the entire BfA Horde leveling experience not take place until after they break Ashvane out of Tol Dagor in 8.1 is so stupid that it's funnier than any First Ones nuances. The Alliance now just randomly invades Zandalar for no reason because the Horde doesn't break out Zul and Talanji until after the entirety of Kul Tiras questing and the whole Horde war campaign is just ???

Easily the most unexpected gold from this book, I can't believe this got published. Let's make Amirdrassil take place before Aberrus in Chronicle 5.

What I can't follow about it is why they changed it. It's simultaneously dumb, in so far as the story explicitly hinges on Talanji's liberation from the Stockades coming first and we're left to believe the Horde pick their nose throughout the entire Kul Tiran questing experience, but it's also pointless, in so far as it doesn't meaningfully improve or degrade any other part of the story. Giving Uldir to the Alliance is similarly a baffling choice. What's the point?

In that vein, what did they mean when they confirmed five old gods then strongly pushed that Xally isn't an Old God?

[micwini]

Reading the new chronicles, it seems like Pandaria wasn't the only continent that had parts of Y'Shaarj?

"over centuries, new civilizations formed atop one of these pieces. It would later be known as Pandaria."

This could be a recipe for "Kezan is one of the other ones -> Kajamite is Yshaarj blood (like saronite for yogg) -> meaning that goblins are also old god creatures". This will then lead to the end boss for the Undermine patch: Terizodoc.

[Joshuaj]

I view the Light as being more about essential unity as opposed to Order - its focus isn't on the mechanistic logistics of disparate processes, but rather on the essential interconnectedness of all things, a harmony of unity that connects back to a singular point at its extreme. Similarly, the Zereth installations aren't the *source* of any given primordial energy or essence - they're just infrastructure presumably created by the First Ones to support and direct said energies, along predefined channels to support the metacosm the First Ones (presumably) devised. We also don't know if every Force actually has its own Zereth installation or was ever intended to, either. Perhaps in some realms they aren't necessary, or even feasible.

What implies that Zereth Mortis ain't the source for Death's energies?

[Dracullus]

the section about nyalotha in chronicle 4 confirms there are 5 old gods

During speculations before Blizzcon I suspected that Xalatath was 5th god that was imprisoned in dagger by other 4 (and dagger contains N'zoth now). Anything in TWW that debunks it?

--

Btw, how you feel about August launch? Before SL I thought Christmas season is better choice, but to be honest Legion/BfA launches were far more enjoyable for me than WoD/SL/DF.