The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Joshuaj]

I'm kinda ok with this new version of the first ones but I still don't like that the titans themselves might be created as robots as well.

Tbf here, we knew nothing of the First Ones themselves prior to now. Them being like the source of the forces, or at the very least named the forces after themselves (especially since they have a part of themselves for their design) is honestly pretty cool.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, the forces being taken from the Progenitors themselves and being named after them would explain why they're capitalized loool

[Enrif]

New Void Lord named Invalidus is namedropped in Chronicles.

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=81215/invalidus
Not sure if it is a capital Void Lord, or just a void lord, aka buffed up voidwalker.

Also confirmation of a fifth old god that disappeared by the time the Titans arrived.

i'm not finding that. Which page?
I only see this:

Thousands of years ago, when the titans first visited Azeroth, they found the planet uncorrupted but under siege by four powerful Void beings known as the Old Gods.

[Joshuaj]

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=81215/invalidus
Not sure if it is a capital Void Lord, or just a void lord, aka buffed up voidwalker.



i'm not finding that. Which page?
I only see this:

Void Lords aren't capitalized in Chronicle

[KOUNTERPARTS]

New Void Lord named Invalidus is namedropped in Chronicles.

Interesting. Funny name too.

Also confirmation of a fifth old god that disappeared by the time the Titans arrived.

Unironically "big, if true"

[Le Conceptuel]

Tbf here, Odyn's Edicts also has it to where Order can't just outright tell players that they know of the First Ones lol

Really, seeing "Order" have to be capitalized in this capacity makes me want to claw out my eyes. Oh, look! It's the metaphysical concept of Order—but not really, because it's actually just another bloc of squabbling magical forces that aren't really that different in presentation. Yes, of course they're all in some capacity symmetrical because there's no difference between Pokemon types and fundamental cosmic forces.

Man, imagine if we got to touch on these high-concept ideas without an unnecessary Cosmic Chart of six wholly equal and equally bland prongs you need to stretch to give any personality.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Not sure why this would even matter. The factions were in open war and it was a military target.

It only matters in Varodoc's very limited perspective of the lore and what matters to them: pro-Alliance spin on any narrative/story plot point.

[Enrif]

Void Lords aren't capitalized in Chronicle

Not quite , there is one place in the chronicles were they are capitalized.

Here dwelled the Pale, a group of orcs who worshipped the Void Lords.

All other uses of the term void lord are not capitalized, even in the part about Sargeras fear about them turning a world to the void. But the Pale worshipping the Void Lords is capitalized, but the void lord Invalidus isn't capitalized.

[Le Conceptuel]

It only matters in Varodoc's very limited perspective of the lore and what matters to them: pro-Alliance spin on any narrative/story plot point.

While I'll eternally shill for the faction war, post-BfA faction shilling has become truly insufferable. You'd swear there's more important things to talk about than which fictional bloc are really Duh Gud Guys, especially when the current portrayal of both of them is so butchered there's more to talk about re: how they were butchered on a meta level than on any in-universe level.

[Lady Atia]

Reading the new chronicles, it seems like Pandaria wasn't the only continent that had parts of Y'Shaarj?

"over centuries, new civilizations formed atop one of these pieces. It would later be known as Pandaria."

[Joshuaj]

Really, seeing "Order" have to be capitalized in this capacity makes me want to claw out my eyes. Oh, look! It's the metaphysical concept of Order—but not really, because it's actually just another bloc of squabbling magical forces that aren't really that different in presentation. Yes, of course they're all in some capacity symmetrical because there's no difference between Pokemon types and fundamental cosmic forces.

Man, imagine if we got to touch on these high-concept ideas without an unnecessary Cosmic Chart of six wholly equal and equally bland prongs you need to stretch to give any personality.

Considering Chronicle seemingly has the First Ones as the forces themselves, or at the very least the Forces are extensions of the First Ones (similar to how the universe is somewhat an extension of God in religion) and are named after them as a result, it makes sense for it to be capitalized.

- - - Updated - - -

Not quite , there is one place in the chronicles were they are capitalized.


All other uses of the term void lord are not capitalized, even in the part about Sargeras fear about them turning a world to the void. But the Pale worshipping the Void Lords is capitalized, but the void lord Invalidus isn't capitalized.

It's just inconsistent then. The word titan can either be capitalized or not capitalized as well

[huth]

Reading the new chronicles, it seems like Pandaria wasn't the only continent that had parts of Y'Shaarj?

"over centuries, new civilizations formed atop one of these pieces. It would later be known as Pandaria."

Considering that pulling him out created the Well of Eternity, that's kind of a given.

[Enrif]

Reading the new chronicles, it seems like Pandaria wasn't the only continent that had parts of Y'Shaarj?

"over centuries, new civilizations formed atop one of these pieces. It would later be known as Pandaria."

Makes sense, though we don't know where else. Assuming Y'shaarj was ripped out where the Maelstrom is on the map, it should have pieces on Kezan and Zandalar, perhaps also Khaz Algar.

Also while talking about islands. The Map in chronciles 4 has no Dragon Isles nor Khaz Algar on it, but a island of the coast of Kalimdor i can not identify what it is supposed to be. It is east of Thousand Needles/Tanaris. Below Kezan, west of Pandaria.

[Le Conceptuel]

Considering Chronicle seemingly has the First Ones as the forces themselves, or at the very least the Forces are extensions of the First Ones (similar to how the universe is somewhat an extension of God in religion) and are named after them as a result, it makes sense for it to be capitalized.

You entirely miss my point. I'm saying that having a six-pronged chart of fully-equal, strictly-categorized (but far from well-defined) cosmic forces reduced to nothing but set pieces portrayed to the audience through pantheons of boring, personality-deprived shells was the underlying mistake.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Edit: heres the full text from that entry

As some one who hates the idea of the first ones I was fine with the dies of them being jsut light and void which clashes and mass every thing, and while this time technically that as it’s every power I think it’s close enough to do away with the problem The first ones caused.

[Alanar]

Not sure why this would even matter. The factions were in open war and it was a military target.

It also means nothing for Jaina.

[Joshuaj]

You entirely miss my point. I'm saying that having a six-pronged chart of fully-equal, strictly-categorized (but far from well-defined) cosmic forces reduced to nothing but set pieces portrayed to the audience through pantheons of boring, personality-deprived shells was the underlying mistake.

Elaborate?

[Enrif]

It's just inconsistent then. The word titan can either be capitalized or not capitalized as well

most likely. Still, i'm not sure i would call Invalidus a void lord, as it may just be a buffed up voidwalker instead. Blizzard really needs to distinguish the name and meaning between void lord (capital big bads) and voidlords (buff voidwalkers)

Unless... What if the Void lords, are just voidwalkers? But they are myriad, reflecting the voids thing about thousands truths and all possible ways. Each void lord is a true void lord, but also just a voidwalker... until it is time for them to be a big bad. would be to high of a concept perhaps, but a fascinating idea.

[Le Conceptuel]

Elaborate?

I don't know if this needs elaboration because I'm fairly convinced the original summary was a concise and very clear explanation of my gripes, but I'll make an effort:

The Cosmic Forces system, as it presently exists, is about as interesting as dried glue. Instead of presenting a set of fundamental underlying forces that govern reality as we perceive it, each force is useful only to present us with a new array of extradimensional aliens with a new color scheme and to provide total compartmentalization to types of magic that were previously far from compartmentalized (e.g. there suddenly being a strict line between the Fel, shadow magic, and necromancy where that line was previously very thin).

The Cosmic Forces, in fact, are neither cosmic nor forces. They only feel "cosmic" in the sense that Capeshit is "cosmic" (e.g. increasingly high stakes that gradually become white noise) and not in the sense of actually providing a coherent cosmology to the setting. They are only "forces" in the sense of being the equivalent to geopolitical forces on a higher scale squabbling over control of the Super Spehsul Planet instead of being actual forces of nature with a fundamental impact on reality.

Their equality also comes to their detriment. Rather than showing the forces as existing on different levels of reality, some existing within others or as the result of two others overlapping, the six must simultaneously sum to every observable quality of reality and be on relatively even footing. This makes it difficult to lend any level of nuance to their interactions and, again, makes them feel more like competing factions of colorful aliens instead of fundamental forces.

More critically than equality is their perfect symmetry in every other way: they all came from a Zereth, prototyped and their rulers 3d printed by the First Ones. They all have a realm, they all have an associated magic, they all have a Pantheon, they all have a competing force. They're all equally bad in the absence of the other forces, or so Blizzard wants to twist their preexisting lore to hammer in, and they all want to claim Azeroth's world-soul because Muh Spehsul Planet. Yawn, bye-bye any possibility of actually expressing their alleged differences through the circumstances of their manifestation and their self-management.

Their avatars are easily the worst parts of these forces. All else could be forgiven if it weren't for the fact that these factions manifest in the most boring conceivable way: as I said earlier, their pantheons are just monomaniacal aliens deprived of nuance whose psychology and physiology is near-human in every way except for those ways that make humans interesting. Rather than being as the embodiments of fundamental forces of reality should be, — transcendent, confusing, alien, and possibly still relatively humanlike at their core at the end of the day, — these pantheons are sets of people, one and all, wearing silly face paint and rattling off their critical buzzwords (muh Infinite Possibilities, muh One True Path, muh Order, muh Cycle) until they cease to have any meaning while their associated Disney Hadeses go off to claim the World-Soul.

[Joshuaj]

most likely. Still, i'm not sure i would call Invalidus a void lord, as it may just be a buffed up voidwalker instead. Blizzard really needs to distinguish the name and meaning between void lord (capital big bads) and voidlords (buff voidwalkers)

Unless... What if the Void lords, are just voidwalkers? But they are myriad, reflecting the voids thing about thousands truths and all possible ways. Each void lord is a true void lord, but also just a voidwalker... until it is time for them to be a big bad. would be to high of a concept perhaps, but a fascinating idea.

The Void Lords are most likely akin to WoWs Outer Gods. The names are even similar, funny enough lol.

Pretty sure Invalidus would just be a fraction of a Void Lords' true power, akin to Dimensius and (debatably) Pandemonius

[Monkal]

@LeConceptuel

Not to be that guy but at least for me part of the reason your points don't always seem to be clear is because you write like you were trying to parody teenagers writing or something like that.

Regarding your actual points: I agree that there's a lack of clarity in how Light and Order specifically are different is a problem. I completely disagree in regards to the avatars, I think that if there is one aspect Blizzard has done right regarding the Pantheons is how above you they feel when compared to mortal characters. They may not feel alien enough, I agree on that, but they do feel transcendent. I also feel that you're overstating a bit on the cosmic war stuff: sure, you have folks like Denathrius or maybe Dimensius who wish to further their Force's reach, but consider how the other Eternal Ones or even some Titans (remember Eonar and Elune being besties?) just seem to want to carry on their duties. I agree on the fact that each Force having its own Zereth is dull, but the new details about the Zereths themselves being the manifestation of the First Ones help mitigate that.