The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Joshuaj]

@LeConceptuel

Not to be that guy but at least for me part of the reason your points don't always seem to be clear is because you write like you were trying to parody teenagers writing or something like that.

Regarding your actual points: I agree that there's a lack of clarity in how Light and Order specifically are different is a problem. I completely disagree in regards to the avatars, I think that if there is one aspect Blizzard has done right regarding the Pantheons is how above you they feel when compared to mortal characters. They may not feel alien enough, I agree on that, but they do feel transcendent. I also feel that you're overstating a bit on the cosmic war stuff: sure, you have folks like Denathrius or maybe Dimensius who wish to further their Force's reach, but consider how the other Eternal Ones or even some Titans (remember Eonar and Elune being besties?) just seem to want to carry on their duties. I agree on the fact that each Force having its own Zereth is dull, but the new details about the Zereths themselves being the manifestation of the First Ones help mitigate that.

I wouldn't consider the Zereths as manifestations of the Progenitors, more like extensions of them

[Le Conceptuel]

I agree that there's a lack of clarity in how Light and Order specifically are different is a problem.

That's hardly the end of it. There's also the bit about how the relationships between these unnecessarily-compartmentalized forces is totally ridiculous in light of earlier lore and the established functions of different kinds of magic pre-Chronicles.

I think that if there is one aspect Blizzard has done right regarding the Pantheons is how above you they feel when compared to mortal characters. They may not feel alien enough, I agree on that, but they do feel transcendent.

> m-muh sister i was just trying to give u the souls
> no u sent them all to the soul-grinder
> o
> it's ok u didn't know i forgive u

A real sterling portrayal of transcendent beings right there. Really feel like I'm listening to a psychopomp and an avatar of the concept of life itself speaking to one another.

I also feel that you're overstating a bit on the cosmic war stuff: sure, you have folks like Denathrius or maybe Dimensius who wish to further their Force's reach, but consider how the other Eternal Ones or even some Titans (remember Eonar and Elune being besties?) just seem to want to carry on their duties.

You're missing my point. What I'm saying isn't that they should all be doing their vaguely-defined jobs and holding hands, it's that the nature of the cosmic conflict in itself is totally nonsensical and the relationships the cosmic forces have with one another in general are by and large utterly uninteresting.

[doledippers]

the section about nyalotha in chronicle 4 confirms there are 5 old gods

[Reive]

i'm seeing a lot of doomposting on twitter about the new book. how shit is it?

[Lady Atia]

the section about nyalotha in chronicle 4 confirms there are 5 old gods

Yeah, and the Pandaria section says there were 4 when the Titans arrived, confirming that number 5 was nomnomed by the others.

[Joshuaj]

Yeah, and the Pandaria section says there were 4 when the Titans arrived, confirming that number 5 was nomnomed by the others.

I still think the 5th is Xal'atath, and that Order is just calling her an Old God, even tho she's actually not but is somewhat related to them. It is possible she was a Void creature meant to unify the Old Gods, but the Old Gods said "fuck you" and devoured her.

[Murlocos]

The retcon to make the entire BfA Horde leveling experience not take place until after they break Ashvane out of Tol Dagor in 8.1 is so stupid that it's funnier than any First Ones nuances. The Alliance now just randomly invades Zandalar for no reason because the Horde doesn't break out Zul and Talanji until after the entirety of Kul Tiras questing and the whole Horde war campaign is just ???

Easily the most unexpected gold from this book, I can't believe this got published. Let's make Amirdrassil take place before Aberrus in Chronicle 5.

[Joshuaj]

"Zovaal was the strongest of the Eternal Ones"

Get. Fucked. All. Of. You.

[Reive]

"Zovaal was the strongest of the Eternal Ones"

Get. Fucked. All. Of. You.

the primus still mogs him

[micwini]

New Void Lord named Invalidus is namedropped in Chronicles.

Also confirmation of a fifth old god that disappeared by the time the Titans arrived.

From voidbound, to wheelchair bound...

[Aucald]

Regarding your actual points: I agree that there's a lack of clarity in how Light and Order specifically are different is a problem. I completely disagree in regards to the avatars, I think that if there is one aspect Blizzard has done right regarding the Pantheons is how above you they feel when compared to mortal characters. They may not feel alien enough, I agree on that, but they do feel transcendent. I also feel that you're overstating a bit on the cosmic war stuff: sure, you have folks like Denathrius or maybe Dimensius who wish to further their Force's reach, but consider how the other Eternal Ones or even some Titans (remember Eonar and Elune being besties?) just seem to want to carry on their duties. I agree on the fact that each Force having its own Zereth is dull, but the new details about the Zereths themselves being the manifestation of the First Ones help mitigate that.

I view the Light as being more about essential unity as opposed to Order - its focus isn't on the mechanistic logistics of disparate processes, but rather on the essential interconnectedness of all things, a harmony of unity that connects back to a singular point at its extreme. Similarly, the Zereth installations aren't the *source* of any given primordial energy or essence - they're just infrastructure presumably created by the First Ones to support and direct said energies, along predefined channels to support the metacosm the First Ones (presumably) devised. We also don't know if every Force actually has its own Zereth installation or was ever intended to, either. Perhaps in some realms they aren't necessary, or even feasible.

[Super Dickmann]

The retcon to make the entire BfA Horde leveling experience not take place until after they break Ashvane out of Tol Dagor in 8.1 is so stupid that it's funnier than any First Ones nuances. The Alliance now just randomly invades Zandalar for no reason because the Horde doesn't break out Zul and Talanji until after the entirety of Kul Tiras questing and the whole Horde war campaign is just ???

Easily the most unexpected gold from this book, I can't believe this got published. Let's make Amirdrassil take place before Aberrus in Chronicle 5.

What I can't follow about it is why they changed it. It's simultaneously dumb, in so far as the story explicitly hinges on Talanji's liberation from the Stockades coming first and we're left to believe the Horde pick their nose throughout the entire Kul Tiran questing experience, but it's also pointless, in so far as it doesn't meaningfully improve or degrade any other part of the story. Giving Uldir to the Alliance is similarly a baffling choice. What's the point?

In that vein, what did they mean when they confirmed five old gods then strongly pushed that Xally isn't an Old God?

[micwini]

Reading the new chronicles, it seems like Pandaria wasn't the only continent that had parts of Y'Shaarj?

"over centuries, new civilizations formed atop one of these pieces. It would later be known as Pandaria."

This could be a recipe for "Kezan is one of the other ones -> Kajamite is Yshaarj blood (like saronite for yogg) -> meaning that goblins are also old god creatures". This will then lead to the end boss for the Undermine patch: Terizodoc.

[Joshuaj]

I view the Light as being more about essential unity as opposed to Order - its focus isn't on the mechanistic logistics of disparate processes, but rather on the essential interconnectedness of all things, a harmony of unity that connects back to a singular point at its extreme. Similarly, the Zereth installations aren't the *source* of any given primordial energy or essence - they're just infrastructure presumably created by the First Ones to support and direct said energies, along predefined channels to support the metacosm the First Ones (presumably) devised. We also don't know if every Force actually has its own Zereth installation or was ever intended to, either. Perhaps in some realms they aren't necessary, or even feasible.

What implies that Zereth Mortis ain't the source for Death's energies?

[Dracullus]

the section about nyalotha in chronicle 4 confirms there are 5 old gods

During speculations before Blizzcon I suspected that Xalatath was 5th god that was imprisoned in dagger by other 4 (and dagger contains N'zoth now). Anything in TWW that debunks it?

--

Btw, how you feel about August launch? Before SL I thought Christmas season is better choice, but to be honest Legion/BfA launches were far more enjoyable for me than WoD/SL/DF.

[Cheezits]

In that vein, what did they mean when they confirmed five old gods then strongly pushed that Xally isn't an Old God?

If Xal isn't Old God 5, then I think #5 is in a state similar to how Elun'ahir was in DF- it's "another one of those things" (world trees/old gods) in a place we dont know (Khaz Algar/?????).

Giving Uldir to the Alliance is similarly a baffling choice. What's the point?

Probably felt their hands were tied to explain how Brann knows MOTHER for 8.3 to happen.

Unsure why they did the Zandalar intro but people getting mad about it are silly. It's dumb to change, but it still happened.

[Murlocos]

What I can't follow about it is why they changed it. It's simultaneously dumb, in so far as the story explicitly hinges on Talanji's liberation from the Stockades coming first and we're left to believe the Horde pick their nose throughout the entire Kul Tiran questing experience, but it's also pointless, in so far as it doesn't meaningfully improve or degrade any other part of the story. Giving Uldir to the Alliance is similarly a baffling choice. What's the point?

I genuinely can't even think of a reason for it. Even the basest stuff like bruised egos or overly sweeping removals of anything a problematic employee worked on shouldn't apply here. It's hard to even discuss it because of that. I never expected this book to be some large-scale recontextualization of disliked stories, but the fact they went back and deliberately altered a story to make less sense via shuffling random parts of it around for no narrative benefit is truly impressive.

[micwini]

During speculations before Blizzcon I suspected that Xalatath was 5th god that was imprisoned in dagger by other 4 (and dagger contains N'zoth now). Anything in TWW that debunks it?

--

Btw, how you feel about August launch? Before SL I thought Christmas season is better choice, but to be honest Legion/BfA launches were far more enjoyable for me than WoD/SL/DF.

I like this more. Right after holidays, kind of a new start. Having them right before christmas just introduces "I want to spend time with loved ones, but fuck new expac". It's also because you have something fun to look forward to instead of just 'ah shit work/school is restarting again"

[Joshuaj]

the primus still mogs him

Domination carried loool

[micwini]

I genuinely can't even think of a reason for it. Even the basest stuff like bruised egos or overly sweeping removals of anything a problematic employee worked on shouldn't apply here. It's hard to even discuss it because of that. I never expected this book to be some large-scale recontextualization of disliked stories, but the fact they went back and deliberately altered a story to make less sense via shuffling random parts of it around for no narrative benefit is truly impressive.

It makes 0 sense. As ally you start in SW keep where you see a flashback from an escaped sailor of Talanji returning to Zandalar. So it is impossible that everything horde comes after Kultiras....