The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Golden Yak]

That checks out with how Spirit works. However, apparently worlds WITHOUT worldsouls have more spirit. Doesn't that run counter to the idea?

My understanding is that Worldsouls soak up lots of Spirit, so worlds without one have more to go around. Also why the elements got more moody on ancient Azeroth, since apparently Spirit keeps elementals regular or whatever.

So you think the 7th Progenitor is something called "Element" or whatnot, and the Worldsouls are more-so manifestations of that Progenitors influence instead of the other 6 influences?

I'd lean more towards the 7th realm being someting not directly connected with the Progenitors - something coming into being spontaneously, without their effort and outside their influence.

[Ersula]

So you think the 7th Progenitor is something called "Element" or whatnot, and the Worldsouls are more-so manifestations of that Progenitors influence instead of the other 6 influences?

That checks out with how Spirit works. However, apparently worlds WITHOUT worldsouls have more spirit. Doesn't that run counter to the idea?

You're forgetting that versions of the cosmology chart use Spirit & Life interchangeably. Spirit belongs to the Life domain. The raw life energy both created the world soul AND the elemental lords.

[Houle]

Yeah equal ranks mean equal power in this case. There is no reason to assume otherwise.

Yes there is - pretty much everything the 2 groups have been shown to be capable of ingame. Also, again, like i said - we already know they are not all of equal power. We have proof of it ingame, and in multiple Chronicles (Chronicle 4 being the latest to point it out). So the argument that they are all of equal power is already invalid. They are not. Sargeras and Zovaal are proof of it. Which means there is more than enough reason to assume that different pantheons are differently powerful, even more so since weve seen one pantheon do much, much more powerful stuff than the other.

And again, its not even really a matter of "assuming". What you listed as a source just isnt describing what you are talking about. Danuser was describing the "cosmic hierarchy". And in the cosmic hierarchy, the titans and the Eternal Ones occupy the same rank - but nothing really indicates that they are on equal power. More the opposite.

I'm still on the "try again" train.

Ah, so the only reason you wrote that "Can we stop this discussion now" comment is bc you reeeeeeally want the discussion to end with you having the infamous "last word" and you tried to have it that way. Got it.

[Joshuaj]

My understanding is that Worldsouls soak up lots of Spirit, so worlds without one have more to go around. Also why the elements got more moody on ancient Azeroth, since apparently Spirit keeps elementals regular or whatever.



I'd lean more towards the 7th realm being someting not directly connected with the Progenitors - something coming into being spontaneously, without their effort and outside their influence.

Yeah but based off how it's being described, it more so seems like there are 7 Progenitors, with the 6 creating 1 design, and the 7th creating it's own.

I theorize that Blizzard may be setting up a "final boss" for Warcraft in that sense. Like a Yog-Sothoth archetype.

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Cause based off Chronicle and Firims notes, it seems like the Cosmology itself is just an extension of the First Ones. Hell, the influences are quite literally pieces of the Progenitors, so it makes sense to have a Yog-Sothoth connection there (Since Yog-Sothoth is basically the entire Lovecraft verse embodied).

So if we're to assume that there is a 7th Progenitor with its own design (either made as a disagreement with the other Progenitors, or made as a Plan B for everything which the Progenitors approved of), then we can assume that this second song, this "7th power", is essentially an extension (or part) of a Progenitor, which therefore gives it a type of Yog-Sothoth-esc nature to it, as the 7th power is it's own cosmology and that cosmology would be but a part of the 7th Progenitor.

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Yes there is - pretty much everything the 2 groups have been shown to be capable of ingame. Also, again, like i said - we already know they are not all of equal power. We have proof of it ingame, and in multiple Chronicles (Chronicle 4 being the latest to point it out). So the argument that they are all of equal power is already invalid. They are not. Sargeras and Zovaal are proof of it. Which means there is more than enough reason to assume that different pantheons are differently powerful, even more so since weve seen one pantheon do much, much more powerful stuff than the other.

And again, its not even really a matter of "assuming". What you listed as a source just isnt describing what you are talking about. Danuser was describing the "cosmic hierarchy". And in the cosmic hierarchy, the titans and the Eternal Ones occupy the same rank - but nothing really indicates that they are on equal power. More the opposite.



Ah, so the only reason you wrote that "Can we stop this discussion now" comment is bc you reeeeeeally want the discussion to end with you having the infamous "last word" and you tried to have it that way. Got it.

Tbf here, I also said that as to avoid getting banned.

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You're forgetting that versions of the cosmology chart use Spirit & Life interchangeably. Spirit belongs to the Life domain. The raw life energy both created the world soul AND the elemental lords.

I'm not talking about Spirit tho. I'm saying Golden Yak likely thinks the 7th is either not a Progenitor at all, or it is a Progenitor and it's name and influence is "element" like the Elemental ring, which includes spirit. I personally believe it's less that, and more that it's a 7th Progenitor with it's own design in mind.

[Jolly Roger]

the universe is a D20

chronicles makes me think that Xal and Locus-walker are both the remnants of a world soul that did not get to fully "hatch"
Xal also seems to be aiming for corrupting alleria and Locus-walker seems to be trying to alienate the void elves from her.

Midnight is going to have a faction of void elves joining the enemy

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I'm not talking about Spirit tho. I'm saying Golden Yak likely thinks the 7th is either not a Progenitor at all, or it is a Progenitor and it's name and influence is "element" like the Elemental ring, which includes spirit. I personally believe it's less that, and more that it's a 7th Progenitor with it's own design in mind.

i think the 7th is "reality" essentially all 6 forces as one in perfect balance and the world souls might start of as them
Azeroth was being influenced to be a life being but the we got order which has been essentially removed due to all the titan engines being damaged or destroyed.
The jailer tried to add death influence via icecrown and the engines there but failed
the light seems to be in the giant crystal along with void.

[Joshuaj]

the universe is a D20

chronicles makes me think that Xal and Locus-walker are both the remnants of a world soul that did not get to fully "hatch"
Xal also seems to be aiming for corrupting alleria and Locus-walker seems to be trying to alienate the void elves from her.

Midnight is going to have a faction of void elves joining the enemy

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i think the 7th is "reality" essentially all 6 forces as one in perfect balance and the world souls might start of as them
Azeroth was being influenced to be a life being but the we got order which has been essentially removed due to all the titan engines being damaged or destroyed.
The jailer tried to add death influence via icecrown and the engines there but failed
the light seems to be in the giant crystal along with void.

I'd say there's an argument to be made there, but a couple of issues:

1. Reality is everything that exists. Idk why Chronicle calls the center reality, but that should apply for every force also. What you're talking about is the Mortal realm AKA the physical universe.

2. Zovaal didn't fear the Mortal realm. He did however fear an unseen power whilist judging souls in the Mortal realm, further aiding the idea that the 7th has SOME hold in the cosmology, but it's also ultimately outside the cosmology, which makes it even crazier.

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Besides, based off Firims notes both in 9.1 and 9.2, it can't be the combination of the 6, as the whole "6 becomes 1" thing is its own song of creation entirely, while the 7th is another song.

[Auxis]

Currently, i think they are "raw" cosmic matter. Pure energy. Cosmic forces can probably sway the alignment of the souls in one direction or the other. We know of only one world soul that manifested so far, Argus. Yet, argus looked like a Titan... but he was supposedly completely aligned with death magic, thus his crash into the arbiter in the shadowlands. I think argus was the same "thing" as the titans of the pantheon, and what sargeras is. But about azeroth world souls? now, it seems to be special. It could be a the seventh first one, the one that is nothing and all.

Well, he was infused with Death magic but the Pantheon were channeling magic into him before he formed on the Seat iirc. Maybe he's a Titan in form because of that magic, but his essence is Death?

[Joshuaj]

Well, he was infused with Death magic but the Pantheon were channeling magic into him before he formed on the Seat iirc. Maybe he's a Titan in form because of that magic, but his essence is Death?

Maybe? Granted Sargeras' magics were probably pumping Order into him as well, albeit his dark version of Order. This is assuming Worldsouls aren't Titans naturally of course

[Enrif]

Well, he was infused with Death magic but the Pantheon were channeling magic into him before he formed on the Seat iirc. Maybe he's a Titan in form because of that magic, but his essence is Death?

i quote the Chronicles 4 here

The Pantheon took their places, channeling their diminished strength into the tormented Worldsoul in an attempt to sever Argus’s link to Sargeras. But the heroes were too late. For in this moment, Sargeras reached out, ordering the Worldsoul of Argus itself to rise in accordance with his dark will. Argus rejected the Pantheon’s interference, knocking the titans back and forming as Argus the Unmaker. Though the titans did not have the strength to fight him alone, the champions of Azeroth eagerly joined the fray. Bolstered by the cosmic strengths of the Pantheon, the heroes still entered an uneven battle against a powerful and chaotic foe. Argus’s power was unlike anything the champions had faced before—its massive scythe and fel abilities difficult to counter. But in the end, the heroes freed Argus of the torment Sargeras had inflicted on it for eons.

It is interesting that they mention that Argus used Fel Abilites, thus assuming he was infused with Chaos, While also being heavily aligned to Death. The Pantheons influence from the channeling could have served to form the shape of the body, even though Arugs rejected the interference.
A interesting word choice here is the Sargeras ordered the Worldsoul to rise. Now, i see that as "giving an Order, a command". I'm sure others might see it as "putting order into it" aka using the power of Order.

[micwini]

Why is everyone trying to argue with a trollposter? Just stop replying and move on.
It also has nothing to do with the future of the game.

[Jolly Roger]

I'd say there's an argument to be made there, but a couple of issues:

1. Reality is everything that exists. Idk why Chronicle calls the center reality, but that should apply for every force also. What you're talking about is the Mortal realm AKA the physical universe.

2. Zovaal didn't fear the Mortal realm. He did however fear an unseen power whilist judging souls in the Mortal realm, further aiding the idea that the 7th has SOME hold in the cosmology, but it's also ultimately outside the cosmology, which makes it even crazier.

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Besides, based off Firims notes both in 9.1 and 9.2, it can't be the combination of the 6, as the whole "6 becomes 1" thing is its own song of creation entirely, while the 7th is another song.

all forces have an antithesis

the antithesis of reality is i think the source of the devourers which have shown how powerful they are and how dangerous.

[Joshuaj]

all forces have an antithesis

the antithesis of reality is i think the source of the devourers which have shown how powerful they are and how dangerous.

The Devourers are simply the clean up crew for the Shadowlands. When the drought happened, they became unstable.

[Jolly Roger]

The Devourers are simply the clean up crew for the Shadowlands. When the drought happened, they became unstable.

they were described as being from the in between

[Joshuaj]

they were described as being from the in between

Which is in the Shadowlands. The in-between is the area between realms within the Shadowlands. It's like crossing an ocean between islands/continents on Earth.

[Jolly Roger]

Which is in the Shadowlands. The in-between is the area between realms within the Shadowlands. It's like crossing an ocean between islands/continents on Earth.

i missed that distinction

i thought it waa in between all realms

[Joshuaj]

i missed that distinction

i thought it waa in between all realms

Nah. It IS between all realms technically, it's just between all realms in the Shadowlands lmao

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I would not be shocked if there was something akin to the in-between that connected each cosmic realm however. I'd argue we technically saw it at the heart of the sepulcher.

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This is what Danuser said regarding the In-Between: "The In-Between is an amalgam of energies that separates the realms of the Shadowlands. It is vast, but far from empty. Wondrous and terrifying entities reside there, and many secrets are said to be hidden there. It is a chaotic place that few are able to navigate, but rumors claim that a few have learned to navigate it."

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The navigators described here btw are the Eternal Travelers.

[Merryck]

I hope the seventh force isn't something stupid like Hope ...

[huth]

I hope the seventh force isn't something stupid like Hope ...

It will instead be the most powerful force of all: Hops. And brew.

[Joshuaj]

I hope the seventh force isn't something stupid like Hope ...

For all we know, it's nothing we're currently aware of.

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Btw, guys, in regards to Chronicle calling the Shadowlands stuff "myth", that can also just mean that the people in the Shadowlands believe in these legends/stories regarding the First Ones. That's not necessarily calling the Shadowlands belief "false". Chronicle Volume 1 calls it's general belief of the early universe "mythos" as well.

They're both different tales of how the universe came to be.

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Myth has lots of definitions, with the "widely held but false ideal/belief" stuff being one of them, yes. But I doubt Chronicle is using that definition to describe the Shadowlands believes. It's likely using the "sets of legends/stories of early history" definition. Where Chronicle has its own mythos regarding how the universe came to be, the Shadowlands has another set of mythos (which seems to be a generally held belief among the other cosmic forces as well).

I assume both sets of mythos are correct, but I wouldn't be shocked if there was more to the story as well, primarily in regards to how Azeroth fits in all of this.

[Nightshade711]

I hope the seventh force isn't something stupid like Hope ...

It’s gonna be something weird like sound & they’re gonna bring Murmur back with it.
But at least they might add bards with it