The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Ersula]

Like I get your argument, but the story confirms to us that the Pantheons are meant to embody the forces the Progenitors made.

They were meant to oversee & protect the afterlives created by the First Ones. They are called the Pantheon of Death.
The Titans were meant to oversee & order the material plane. They are called the Pantheon of Order.

The fact they embody different motifs of death that exist in the material plane is just a chicken/egg situation.

Not to mention the idea Elune & the Winter Queen are somehow siblings or how the Primus hid the Tools of Domination on Azeroth without the Titans knowing suggests the Pantheons did not always exist the way they do now.

[Golden Yak]

I disagree that the Eternal Ones "Embody" death. MAYBE Maldraxxus did, before he died and became a battlefield. But the Jailer and the rest are automatons created by the First Ones.

Wait, was Maldraxxus once a guy? I must have missed that part.

[Ersula]

Wait, was Maldraxxus once a guy? I must have missed that part.

Yes, we don't know much but the NPCs do talk about how the physical plane of Maldraxxus is an undead creature itself. That's why the giant bones that make up the landscape actually twitch if you watch them long enough.

Seems like the First Ones felt like the undead armies should itself be built off an undead behemoth. Reminds me of the Plane of Disease in Everquest, which was modeled after the extreme closeup of human skin: The creatures living there would be rashes & mites with hair follicles serving as trees.

I think the cosmic settings are actually very good. It's just that the storytelling of shadowlands was lacking.

[Foolicious]

Wait, was Maldraxxus once a guy? I must have missed that part.

It's never been confirmed, but has been floating around as a theory that maldraxxus was once part of some being. Some flavourtext of an item mentions "the maldraxxus" and the zone itself is kind of alive with hair growing, fleshy pustules, ground that looks like skin etc.

But never anything concrete to confirm this as far as im aware.

[Joshuaj]

They were meant to oversee & protect the afterlives created by the First Ones. They are called the Pantheon of Death.
The Titans were meant to oversee & order the material plane. They are called the Pantheon of Order.

The fact they embody different motifs of death that exist in the material plane is just a chicken/egg situation.

Not to mention the idea Elune & the Winter Queen are somehow siblings or how the Primus hid the Tools of Domination on Azeroth without the Titans knowing suggests the Pantheons did not always exist the way they do now.

That's just what I said

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Yes, we don't know much but the NPCs do talk about how the physical plane of Maldraxxus is an undead creature itself. That's why the giant bones that make up the landscape actually twitch if you watch them long enough.

Seems like the First Ones felt like the undead armies should itself be built off an undead behemoth. Reminds me of the Plane of Disease in Everquest, which was modeled after the extreme closeup of human skin: The creatures living there would be rashes & mites with hair follicles serving as trees.

I think the cosmic settings are actually very good. It's just that the storytelling of shadowlands was lacking.

Wouldn't that just mean Maldraxxus is basically a "living weapon" created by the First Ones?

[Ersula]

That's just what I said

Its actually the opposite of what you said. Mortals concept of death embodies the Eternal ones, but they weren't "created to embody death."

[Joshuaj]

Except there's no reason to think either of those things are connected to the other Zereths. The Machine of Origination is within the Sepulcher. We don't go through any portals or anything to get there & the Heart of Eternity is just the hole funneling Azeroth's worldsoul.

We don't know how Zovaal was going to go about remaking reality but using what the First Ones used to make the afterlives of the Shadowlands is a fine place to start. The Sepulcher was the tipping point of his plan because it could harvest a world soul, which he tried to do with Azeroth & use its inherent anima in his plan. The only thing we can infer is that the "reality" of the shadowlands is the original one because the shadowlands is the layer of reality the First Ones started with, assuming Zereth mortis is inside the Shadowlands at all. (But then again I don't believe the spheres are physical locations, but are just concepts.)

The Heart of Eternity isn't the hole of which Azeroth was being funneled from. It's the literal Death part of the machine. And Firim straight up confirms that the machine connects the heart of the sepulcher with the other cosmic hearts, likely implying that the machine itself is a device that expands beyond the sepulcher.

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Its actually the opposite of what you said. Mortals concept of death embodies the Eternal ones, but they weren't "created to embody death."

Mortals concept of death are embodied VIA a lot of things, and they themselves have different beliefs on what occurs during the process. But it's not embodied VIA the Etetnal Ones. No idea why you think this.

And the story talks about, multiple times even, how the forces are embodied through the pantheons.

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Well, your own argument is essentially that they don't embody the forces the Progenitors made but rather the forces the Progenitors are.

That would essentially make them avatars of Death.

Not really.

Here is my point.

There are 6 (maybe 7?) Progenitors, they get together and create the pattern, they take a piece of themselves, and those pieces become the cosmic influences. The Influences get warped and designed VIA the pattern, namely through the Zereths, and the Pantheons are made to embody those influences made by the First Ones.

[Steampunkette]

Wait, was Maldraxxus once a guy? I must have missed that part.

You never noticed that the ground is skin with pores and hair sticking out of it? The whole zone is at least a chunk of a massive slowly rotting corpse, which is part of why it's one of my favorite Shadowlands Zones. It's -way- more imaginative a design than most of what WoW has ever produced.

It's never been confirmed, but has been floating around as a theory that maldraxxus was once part of some being. Some flavourtext of an item mentions "the maldraxxus" and the zone itself is kind of alive with hair growing, fleshy pustules, ground that looks like skin etc.

But never anything concrete to confirm this as far as im aware.

Still nothing concrete, but look at how -cool- it is!

[Ersula]

The Heart of Eternity isn't the hole of which Azeroth was being funneled from. It's the literal Death part of the machine. And Firim straight up confirms that the machine connects the heart of the sepulcher with the other cosmic hearts, likely implying that the machine itself is a device that expands beyond the sepulcher.

It's just the hole. That phrase only shows up in the entire game in the Jailer Raid encounter to refer to the death hole in the middle of the room. And I doubt Firim explains all that because the other Zereths are only ever mentioned by Oracle Saezurah.

[Joshuaj]

It's just the hole. That phrase only shows up in the entire game in the Jailer Raid encounter to refer to the death hole in the middle of the room. And I doubt Firim explains all that because the other Zereths are only ever mentioned by Oracle Saezurah.

The "Heart of Eternity" is the entire location where we fight the Jailer. That's the name of the boss room. That just means it's part of the machine of origination.

And yes, Firim does talk about it.

"It is clear to me now that there must be a Zereth for each force of the cosmos, and within them, an inner sanctum akin to the Sepulcher.

And if that is true, then these sanctums must be connected on some fundamental level; a connection that the Jailer sought to exploit."


"What he began in the Sepulcher was meant to cascade outward from one Zereth to the next, until all were dominated by his power. The heart of the Shadowlands acting as a doorway to the heart of each cosmic force in turn, one after another bound to his will.

But if his scheme was thwarted, then why is my mind so ill at ease?"

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You never noticed that the ground is skin with pores and hair sticking out of it? The whole zone is at least a chunk of a massive slowly rotting corpse, which is part of why it's one of my favorite Shadowlands Zones. It's -way- more imaginative a design than most of what WoW has ever produced.



Still nothing concrete, but look at how -cool- it is!

Tbf here, that likely just means Maldraxxus is a literal representation of "a living weapon".

[Ersula]

"What he began in the Sepulcher was meant to cascade outward from one Zereth to the next, until all were dominated by his power. The heart of the Shadowlands acting as a doorway to the heart of each cosmic force in turn, one after another bound to his will.

But if his scheme was thwarted, then why is my mind so ill at ease?"

What Firim is talking about here is that the Zereths were made to create the universe. He doesn't know that yet. When he refers to them being "connected" he's referring to a figurative connection, not a physical connection. Their connection is the First Ones & their role in creation.

[Makorus]

It's never been confirmed, but has been floating around as a theory that maldraxxus was once part of some being. Some flavourtext of an item mentions "the maldraxxus" and the zone itself is kind of alive with hair growing, fleshy pustules, ground that looks like skin etc.

But never anything concrete to confirm this as far as im aware.

Now, while I still think Maldraxxus is a creature (There's literal fleshy warts coming out of the ground), they did change the flavour text to just say "Bones of Maldraxxus".

[Joshuaj]

What Firim is talking about here is that the Zereths were made to create the universe. He doesn't know that yet. When he refers to them being "connected" he's referring to a figurative connection, not a physical connection. Their connection is the First Ones & their role in creation.

Yes, they have a figurative connection, but they also have a physical connection (Both can be and are true). Firim literally talks about how the Jailer was connecting the heart of the sepulcher to the other cosmic hearts in order to remake reality. He's quite literally completing his mission of remaking reality in "his deathly vision".

The Machine of Origination would most likely be the overarching machine from which each cosmic heart has a part of. Death's part of the machine would just be "the heart of eternity" in this case.

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Now, while I still think Maldraxxus is a creature (There's literal fleshy warts coming out of the ground), they did change the flavour text to just say "Bones of Maldraxxus".

I don't think it's a "creature", but I do think it's a "literal living weapon".

[Golden Yak]

You never noticed that the ground is skin with pores and hair sticking out of it? The whole zone is at least a chunk of a massive slowly rotting corpse, which is part of why it's one of my favorite Shadowlands Zones. It's -way- more imaginative a design than most of what WoW has ever produced.

No, I got all that, Maldraxxus was my favorite zone. I thought it was a landscape of undifferentiated corpse flesh, I didn't know it was ever stated to be literally one guy's body.

And apparently it wasn't, but it's a cool thought.

[Joshuaj]

Okay. Imma say it. The titans fucking suck at naming things.

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"Forge of Origination"

Re-Origination maybe...cause this shit didn't originate a damn thing!!!

[Explicit Teemo Nudes]

Watching the spider cinematic, I don't understand one thing, but I'm probably just missing something here.
If they never worked with N'Zoth/the Black Empire, why do they have an image of him on their wall(s)?
Did they work with the Black Empire at some point?
Did they take this place from the Black Empire and made it their own? If they did, wouldn't they get rid of the image(s) of their enemy?
I have not been there in-game on the beta, so I don't really know what it looks like; I only know of the big mural of N'Zoth.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Watching the spider cinematic, I don't understand one thing, but I'm probably just missing something here.
If they never worked with N'Zoth/the Black Empire, why do they have an image of him on their wall(s)?
Did they work with the Black Empire at some point?
Did they take this place from the Black Empire and made it their own? If they did, wouldn't they get rid of the image(s) of their enemy?
I have not been there in-game on the beta, so I don't really know what it looks like; I only know of the big mural of N'Zoth.

Either they worked with them in the past and later on said "no more", or it's just a historical mural depicting important events that have happened.

[Lady Atia]

The "Heart of Eternity" is the entire location where we fight the Jailer. That's the name of the boss room. That just means it's part of the machine of origination.

And yes, Firim does talk about it.

"It is clear to me now that there must be a Zereth for each force of the cosmos, and within them, an inner sanctum akin to the Sepulcher.

And if that is true, then these sanctums must be connected on some fundamental level; a connection that the Jailer sought to exploit."


"What he began in the Sepulcher was meant to cascade outward from one Zereth to the next, until all were dominated by his power. The heart of the Shadowlands acting as a doorway to the heart of each cosmic force in turn, one after another bound to his will.

But if his scheme was thwarted, then why is my mind so ill at ease?"

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Tbf here, that likely just means Maldraxxus is a literal representation of "a living weapon".

This, from what I got from the raid the Heart of Eternity isn't in the Sepulcher per se but it's what connects all the Zereths - we only used the Sepulcher to access it (and the Jailer left Anduin there to guard the portal).

[Raetary]

Watching the spider cinematic, I don't understand one thing, but I'm probably just missing something here.
If they never worked with N'Zoth/the Black Empire, why do they have an image of him on their wall(s)?
Did they work with the Black Empire at some point?
Did they take this place from the Black Empire and made it their own? If they did, wouldn't they get rid of the image(s) of their enemy?
I have not been there in-game on the beta, so I don't really know what it looks like; I only know of the big mural of N'Zoth.

The Nerubians are descendants from the Aqir.

They are historically (and by creation) tied to the Black Empire, it's just an old mural depicting some event from back then.
Azj'kahet is not a fresh empire either, it's millenia old.

It's also not an image of N'zoth, we don't know who that is but its likely Old God #5.
Maybe even Xal herself.

[MCMLXXXII]

Can not wait for more Shadowlands lore speculation /s