The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Eurhetemec]

One of the big, consistent problems with WoW's worldbuilding (and fantasy worldbuilding in general) is creating new "important" characters but giving them nothing to do.

Yes, and well said re: "fantasy worldbuilding in general", because it 100% is a generalized fantasy (and to a lesser extent SF in general) issue.

It seems they've abandoned Taelia narrative entirely. And I wasn't surprised that they continued this narrative with the Faerin character. Basically, she is Taelia 2.0

Taelia has no place in the world anymore. But in the next expansion we will get a new young protagonist and it will be Salandria.

I think what we're seeing here is essentially Metzen "assuming direct control" (to quote ME2).

I don't think Metzen finds Taelia to be an interesting character, nor her parentage to be a particularly interesting plot thread. Faerin, despite some people's weird hate-boners about her, is a character with a ton more going on, a far more interesting, developed and distinctive visual design, and a character who has ties into likely future content, perhaps even post-Worldsoul-saga stuff, if they save the Arathi Empire for after that (which I think they will, for the most part).

[Lady Atia]

Yes, and well said re: "fantasy worldbuilding in general", because it 100% is a generalized fantasy (and to a lesser extent SF in general) issue.



I think what we're seeing here is essentially Metzen "assuming direct control" (to quote ME2).

I don't think Metzen finds Taelia to be an interesting character, nor her parentage to be a particularly interesting plot thread. Faerin, despite some people's weird hate-boners about her, is a character with a ton more going on, a far more interesting, developed and distinctive visual design, and a character who has ties into likely future content, perhaps even post-Worldsoul-saga stuff, if they save the Arathi Empire for after that (which I think they will, for the most part).

It's great how you guys all seem to know what Metzen thinks or finds lol. Especially after he already said in an interview he will build upon the stuff that was created during his absence instead of retconning / ignoring it.

[Eurhetemec]

It's great how you guys all seem to know what Metzen thinks or finds lol. Especially after he already said in an interview he will build upon the stuff that was created during his absence instead of retconning / ignoring it.

Come on.

You know perfectly well that almost every creator who joins/rejoins a IP says "I will build on existing stuff and I totally 100% won't forget/retcon/ignore it!".

Like, all three modern Dr Who writers said that. All of them immediately then started forgetting, retconning, changing without even a retcon, or just ignoring stuff! Didn't make them bad writers (well, I mean, okay maybe Moffat and Chibnall are lol, but RTD isn't!)

Further, Metzen probably thinks he is doing that. But building on things doesn't mean you have to kick every ball, does it? You don't have to make every character anyone previous was interested in into a major character, do you? You literally cannot possibly play out every potential plot thread. Even trying to do that would be GRRM-style self-harm and bonkers.

[Houle]

It's great how you guys all seem to know what Metzen thinks or finds lol. Especially after he already said in an interview he will build upon the stuff that was created during his absence instead of retconning / ignoring it.

Not saying i really agree with the "Metzen is definitely going to retcon/ignore the Danuser lore" crowd, but what he said in an interview is pretty much irrelevant.

He is not going to publicy say "This sucks, i hate it, ill effectively cut it out in some way", no matter if he actually wants to do that or not. It would not be a good look.

[Murlocos]

I don't think they had any real plans for Taelia that Metzen could scrap in the first place. Shadowlands was her heritage payoff moment, but since Bolvar's mystique was completely gone and he came off like a hapless chump the whole expansion it was less "immortal king of the dead has his humanity exposed by his long lost child" and more "guy gets a call from his estranged daughter right after he got laid off and it's pouring rain outside and he dropped the keys to his car into a drain" energy. Then, like most of the cast at that point, she was just kind of there.

I'm sure they had ideas floating around for her that maybe even made it onto a whiteboard, but that's a far cry from a plan.

[Eurhetemec]

I don't think they had any real plans for Taelia that Metzen could scrap in the first place. Shadowlands was her heritage payoff moment, but since Bolvar's mystique was completely gone and he came off like a hapless chump the whole expansion it was less "immortal king of the dead has his humanity exposed by his long lost child" and more "guy gets a call from his estranged daughter right after he got laid off and it's pouring rain outside and he dropped the keys to his car into a drain" energy. Then, like most of the cast at that point, she was just kind of there.

This is brutal but very fair lol.

I'm sure they had ideas floating around for her that maybe even made it onto a whiteboard, but that's a far cry from a plan.

Yeah that'd be my assessment too.

[Houle]

I'm sure they had ideas floating around for her that maybe even made it onto a whiteboard, but that's a far cry from a plan.

Yeah, sounds about right.

Kinda a similar case like with Calia. Both had chances to shine in SL, with their connections to Bolvar and Arthas respectively, both werent really utilized, now they are just kinda there.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

The Chronicles are shaky ground as far as sources to rely on.

They are only as shaky as the narrative perspective they are written from. They are from the perspective of the titans-- it's written in their view point and their beliefs as to the who/what/when/where/why of things.

Or, if you are trying to say "shaky ground" as to say any lore/story coming from Blizzard is to be considered shaky because you just don't like it, just say that so we can ignore it.

It's okay not to like the story/lore coming out, and maybe not even agree with the direction for certain aspects. But to called Chronicles "shaky" for those reasons is silly.

[Sondrelk]

I really hope Delves stick around honestly. A bit of growing pains now at the start, but honestly it has such potential. Delves set in the actual zone for isntance, rather than just inside a cave. It really can be what MoP scenarios and BfA island expeditions never managed to be.

[Makabreska]

I really hope Delves stick around honestly. A bit of growing pains now at the start, but honestly it has such potential. Delves set in the actual zone for isntance, rather than just inside a cave. It really can be what MoP scenarios and BfA island expeditions never managed to be.

They were announced as a feature to stay and Blizz knew they would be issues at launch. They will defo stay.

[Sondrelk]

They were announced as a feature to stay and Blizz knew they would be issues at launch. They will defo stay.

What they say and what will be isn't necessarily the same.
M+ was announced as a fun side activity in Legion and ended up a core gameplay loop.

There is a chance that the issues present in Delves right now will mean less effort will be out into it later. Similar to how Islands in BfA and Torghast in SL had issues that made them effectively abandoned by the end.

[Makabreska]

What they say and what will be isn't necessarily the same.
M+ was announced as a fun side activity in Legion and ended up a core gameplay loop.

There is a chance that the issues present in Delves right now will mean less effort will be out into it later. Similar to how Islands in BfA and Torghast in SL had issues that made them effectively abandoned by the end.

Was it really? With the ilvl gear it awarded from the start?

[huth]

What they say and what will be isn't necessarily the same.
M+ was announced as a fun side activity in Legion and ended up a core gameplay loop.

There is a chance that the issues present in Delves right now will mean less effort will be out into it later. Similar to how Islands in BfA and Torghast in SL had issues that made them effectively abandoned by the end.

Islands was BFA and Torghast was an SL only feature from the start, though. Delves are designed as a permanent addition.

A new feature having some issues at the start is hardly surprising, either.

[Dracullus]

How people still can't see difference between Delves and Torghast/Islands? Delves are alternative progression path, Torghast/Islands were required step of everyone progression whether you liked them or not (especially Torghast, Islands were just most efficient way to grind AP). Content was never big problem, reward structure killed both.

[allegrian]

The base expansion feels a bit like Danuser's leftovers. When Metzen came in it was very deep in development so he couldn't change much even if he tried to shoehorn it in his titan trilogy. We can see stuff that makes little sense and is not too connected to the world soul stuff like the Arathi on the other side of the planed, who created hallowfall in less than 20 years and the nerubians who are kinda just there and dealt with. There's not even a quest that sends you there to kill the queen, who does basically nothing as she was basically replaced by xalatath in all cinematics where she should've shown up.

The story doesn't currenlty have any direction after defeating the queen, as we don't know what xalatath will do and she could just go elsewhere. In DF we knew we'd have to deal with the incarnates, in SL we were advancing towards the jailer + sylvannas... We could just end the expansion here and move to Midnight where Xalatath will make her next voidy move, so I fear the content patches in TWW will feature heavy "filler" stories like the datamined goblin patch and Haranir for another druid patch to feature more of Danuser's lore leftovers.

The characer story of Anduin, Alleria and the bronzebeards is good and it at least makes you feel it's more connected to the classic WoW universe, even if it's just alliance.

Xalatath just keeps looking at the camera and I hope this time blizzard actually knows what her plan is, unlike in legion/bfa with Sylvannas.

Right now, it doesn't really feel like a part of a bigger saga with a connected story, as TWW's story could basically end here and there isn't any build up for more stories here.

[Khaza-R]

Sylvanas story was a mess because they were making massive changes to it as far back as the Legion beta. And then with each expansion it kept shifting and getting more inconsistent. The whole point of the WSS is avoid something like that. So I wouldn't say Xal is the same at all.

Just because she hasn't telegraphed her entire plan to us doesn't mean she doesn't have one. I understand people are very weary of a drip fed story. But part of that is simply the medium its being told in.

[Worldshaper]

Do we know why they changed the lore of the Arathi between BlizzCon and launch, so that they arrived in Hallowfall 15 years ago instead of hundreds?

Because hundreds made a lot of sense. Time enough to construct buildings and cathedrals, to develop their own culture in the darkness, and to become hardened over generations of fighting the increasingly hostile Nerubians and Kobyss. Also worked nicely with the half-elf ears we saw in Alpha, a way to live longer lives and counteract a dwindling population etc.

But something obviously made them change it. Does the Beledar lore need to feel more current to fit any other lore? Did they require Avaloren to be different somehow to fit TLT, for example by ensuring any possible corruption was pretty recent?

[Dracullus]

Nitpicking bros: "you cannot make city in 15 years, learn some logic bluzzard"

Meanwhile Theramore 4 years after mortal races banded together and stand united againt the might of burning legion:

[Nymrohd]

Nitpicking bros: "you cannot make city in 15 years, learn some logic bluzzard"

Meanwhile Theramore 4 years after mortal races banded together and stand united againt the might of burning legion:

To nitpick on that, Jaina and her allies could probably summon enough Earth Elementals to build that city in a few weeks. The Arathi have no magic other than Holy which isn't really that great utility; sure it can probably keep workers active for a long time but that's it.

[Sondrelk]

Do we know why they changed the lore of the Arathi between BlizzCon and launch, so that they arrived in Hallowfall 15 years ago instead of hundreds?

Because hundreds made a lot of sense. Time enough to construct buildings and cathedrals, to develop their own culture in the darkness, and to become hardened over generations of fighting the increasingly hostile Nerubians and Kobyss. Also worked nicely with the half-elf ears we saw in Alpha, a way to live longer lives and counteract a dwindling population etc.

But something obviously made them change it. Does the Beledar lore need to feel more current to fit any other lore? Did they require Avaloren to be different somehow to fit TLT, for example by ensuring any possible corruption was pretty recent?

They never changed the lore, players just misunderstood what the Arathi are.

The impression some players had was that the Arathi had arrived from the Eastern Kingdom 15 years ago, and that there was some mystery as to how they arrived from the past or whatever.
What the lore was, and which some players got confused by, is that the Hallowfall expedition arrived 15 years ago from the Arathi empire, which is somewhere we have not yet seen.

Adn sure, the giant cathedral is a bit of a stretch. But we know that they were more or less at peace until Sargeras' sword hit, and that they had plenty of trade with the Earthen. It's not unthinkable that being such a zealous people, that they focused on making the Priory with the help of the Earthen to get it up quickly.

Also, they don't really have their own culture beyond what is reasonable. They are zealous, like what the Arathi empire at large likely is. And they were all part of an expeditionary fleet mostly comprised of military personnel.
The biggest difference is them not being overtly xenophobic, which is fairly easily explained by years of trade with the earthen combined with their need to be pragmatic against the Kobyss and Nerubians.