The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Joshuaj]

Yeah, man. It's in Chronicles Vol. 1.

Probably not the best thing to use as a primary source...

[Eurhetemec]

The problem with the male vs female characters is mainly that we've been lacking badass male character heroes since legion with Varian or bfa if you count Saurfang (which was sad all the time lol).

Every new "badass" character or cinematic we get is a woman. If a new man character is a bit close to baddass, he's either a villain and/or dies (see Baelgrim). Bolvar had the potential to be one but was nerfed before his cinematic even finished.

Anduin is getting closer to that but neither old or new male characters get classic wow baddass moments anymore.

Instead, we got Jaina, Talanji, Faerin, Alleria, Tyrande, Sylvannas, Xalatath, Orwenya soon... All have their baddass moments.

I'm not against baddass women mind you, it's just that it's all we've been getting for years vs almost 0 male ones.

This isn't really true though, is it?

Faerin isn't a badass in the same sense Varian was, not even slightly.

She's brave, but she's pretty gentle, and like, mostly serves a pretty traditionally feminine role of "healing" Anduin's mental wounds so he can become braver. When is her "badass moment" compared to the others?

Alleria is a badass, but no more so than Khadgar - is he not counted because he's got grey hair and he's a dress-wearing Mage or something lol? Why is he not allowed to be badass - he literally got a badass moment when he saved Alleria at the apparent cost of his own life in this very expansion!

Jaina and Talanji haven't don anything "badass" since what, BfA? Certainly Jaina was a damp squib in SL, and I don't remember her doing anything "badass" in DF or TWW, am I forgetting something? Sylvanas has been a villain since BfA, and her only badass-ness since then has been villain-y. It all went away when she realized she was in the wrong.

And if we're counting badass villains, then presumably The Jailer is getting skipped solely because he looks like Handsome Squidward and/or failed to land as a villain?

Magni apparently gets to suck a fat one for saving the entire Earthen race by doing something he thought would likely result in his own death? Discounted because dwarf?

I do think they could stand to make Anduin into more of a badass sooner rather than later, but I feel like you're wallpapering over some enormous cracks here.

[Chain Chungus]

Man, who let all the incels out of their mothers' basements?

Go eat some more red pills, weirdos.

[Polybius]

Some people seem completely lost. We don't have an imbalance of female and male characters. They just removed the masculinity characters. Nowadays it is commonly called "toxic masculinity" Without such characters, the story seems ridiculous. It's like replacing the gun with confetti in a shooter game.

We need courageous characters who will give epic inspirational speeches.Think about why everyone likes Metzen and his voice. Maybe because he is inspiring and courageous?

They didn't lose their masculinity. Many are either benched (you can't use all characters you have, dev time) or they stopped skipping emotional beats. You don't go from A to C without managing the inevitable emotions of hardship.

[micwini]

They didn't lose their masculinity. Many are either benched (you can't use all characters you have, dev time) or they stopped skipping emotional beats. You don't go from A to C without managing the inevitable emotions of hardship.

You're right, but we've been at B for like 2-3 years now. It is the balance that is off, it's not like one or the other shouldnt exists. Would have been cool to have had Baelgrim around for longer or Olbarig getting a wake up call instead for example.

[Eurhetemec]

Would have been cool to have had Baelgrim around for longer

One thing I will definitely agree on is that Baelgrim's suicide mission seemed like it came too early in the story and wasn't earned well. Like, the dude had redeemed himself already, and stopped being a jerk, and he just immediately suicides before we can even get to like him? Zero emotional impact, and it just felt weird because that's hardly the only way to blow up a whole bunch of explosives in that situation! I think warrior-suiciding out is pretty cool at times (c.f. Varian absolutely badass-maxing on this approach), but it needs to have emotional heft - he could have done it much later in the story.

[Polybius]

You're right, but we've been at B for like 2-3 years now. It is the balance that is off, it's not like one or the other shouldnt exists. Would have been cool to have had Baelgrim around for longer or Olbarig getting a wake up call instead for example.

I blame SL for that, and how badly managed all characters were (Bolvar, Tyrande, Sylvanas, Baine etc). I think this is what so many are upset at, bad writing in SL and DF that we got no development for established characters, but with TWW it feels like we skipped over them.

Anduin is a weird case in which they're somewhat downplaying SL this expansion, or his resolve in SL was not deserved so it seems like he's back to square one. In TWW he was too attached to the light, had high expectations, and he learns to harness (rather than rely on) the light through the Arathi. He sometimes even mirrors Alleria's impatience only Alleria's folly is detachment, or going alone.

[Zardas]

I mean no goalposts were moved.

Yes they were. Nobody specified that it was only about endbosses (because it wouldn't make sens), so the base postulate is that every npc is included. Therefore reducing afterward your sample is goalpost moving.

Again, it is about representivity. Obviously, this means having certain characters being in or ascending to, certain positions is what matters here. Maybe I didn't explain this nuance of my point well enough.

I fail to see how sex has anything to do with "representivity". Or do you feel more or less represented by characters depending on what they have between their legs ?

And again: Seeing as you haven't played it, you can't really validate any data given. I'd gladly provide the full list at some point, maybe if I care enough and have the time to do so and probably in a separate thread.

And until you do so, I'll keep siding with the side of those who provided facts.

About the political thing: I know people here that will just instantly think it is about race/gender, but that's not solely it.

What do you mean "not solely" ? That's not a political thing at all.

It's just the way that lots of storybeats are obviously related to realworld happenings, moral values and virtue signaling. DF was really bad in this regard as well.

I played DF except 10.1 and didn't notice of that. And I wasn't fond of the DF story, but it was just boring, there was no "moral values" or "virtue signaling", at least not anymore than the one wow is about since War3.

Evil characters suddenly switching to good with almost 0 buildup. Instead of "damn we killed them but they were actually slightly right" for example. As I said: It is so bad that you can predict the outcome of questlines if you know what theme/underlying message it is going to be or based on how the character looks. That's just poor writing on top.

But that's just bad writing. There is just bland one-dimensional characters. Nothing "political" about it. Like, can you give concrete example of a specific questline and how it is "political" ?

Also could you answer to the almost half of my points that you convenientely ignored ?

- - - Updated - - -

They just removed the masculinity characters.

What do you mean ? As listed above, there is plenty of characters with a penis.

We need courageous characters who will give epic inspirational speeches.Think about why everyone likes Metzen and his voice. Maybe because he is inspiring and courageous?

For sure, but what does it has to do with "masculinity" ? Can't you give epic inspirational speeches without a penis ?

[Kiivar86]

Christ almighty, are we seriously bickering over the amount of female versus male characters? Seriously?

Anyway.

Orlando Salvatore who was the lead software engineer, as well as the one behind Plunderstorm as well as MoP remix, just left Blizzard.

[Sondrelk]

So we are actually at the point where you want strong male characters. And by strong we mean physically strong, and not strong character archetypes.

It doesnt matter that Anduin is a well fleshed out character with a believable arc of rediscovering his inner strength because he isnt simultaneously physically badass.
Saurfang was only interesting when his character amounted to punching stuff in a cool way. And not when his arc of realizing the flaws inherent to his warrior mentality caused him to endorse a world war for supposed glory.

So basically what some people here want are flatly written men straight out of Conan the Barbarian. Eschewing character growth that cannot be boiled down to whacking big mean enemies with a big stick. Like cavemen.

- - - Updated - - -

Christ almighty, are we seriously bickering over the amount of female versus male characters? Seriously?

Anyway.

Orlando Salvatore who was the lead software engineer, as well as the one behind Plunderstorm as well as MoP remix, just left Blizzard.

Do we know how much his input amounted to though? Was he the main guy spearheading the concept of experimental gameplay, or just the guy who signed off on the developers being let off the leash?

It's seems like a harsh blow. But one can hope that the change in dev time allocation evident by Plunderstorm, MoP Remix, and to a lesser extent the Trading Post, means that the important thing is just continuing to steady the ship on its current course.

[allegrian]

While I think its best if we all move on from the gender discussion derailment.

I think this is a much more valid criticism. Chiefly, the whole whiny, remorseful male character schtick is really, really tiresome at this point.

Sadfang, Bolvar, Wrathion/Sabellian, now Anduin, Thrall and Magni. Shit is very played out after 4 expansions. They need to come up with something fresh at this point.

I agree completely. The three more aggresive/testosterone dudes that I met in this expansion, I expected them to die at some point, and they did (Baelgrim, the Arathi that becomes a dungeon boss and Anu'bazal).

- - - Updated - - -

Christ almighty, are we seriously bickering over the amount of female versus male characters? Seriously?

Anyway.

Orlando Salvatore who was the lead software engineer, as well as the one behind Plunderstorm as well as MoP remix, just left Blizzard.

That sucks, I loved plunderstorm

[Trazzle]

Imagine giving a shit what sex the narrative characters are… try meeting/talking to more people (in person), just generally.

——————

With amazons new game out and the 20th anniversary around the corner and still no confirmed news for what’s around the corner… I’m thinking Blizzard COULD/SHOULD have something big planned. To retain and gain attention/audience. I think there’s plenty of bread crumbs laid for my dream but what do you think they’ve got planned?

They’ve mentioned a Warcraft Direct (unless that was just the 20th anniversary show case), some sort of global event we haven’t heard anything about recently…

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It's all fine my guy. I'm talking about side questlines like the demented earthen being replaced by a woman, the zeppelin captain, etc. stuff like that. Just the 2 most memorable to me because the questlines were good.

Been nagging at me so I figured screw it id just go through every thing.

alive named characters count Isle of dorn side quest.

Spoiler: 

Spores of Dread 1/1 male/female

Behind Closed Doors 6/7

Seven Soldiers 5/6

Lost Lord of the Storm 7/4

Hope, An Anomaly 1/1

The Hermit 1/1

A Titanic Expedition 3/1

Remember Me, Earthen 1/1

Brotherhood in the Skolzgal Wood 3/0

Gems Are Forever 2/2

All Ore Nothing 0/3

Total males 31, Total females 27.


Ringing Deeps

Spoiler: 

The Caretaker of Brunwin's Terrace 0/1

Routine Maintenance 2/0

Envenomed Invasion 2/0

Into the Fog 1/1 duck with shoes/female

Kobold Culture and Integration 6/4

Abysmal Extraction 2/2

Tired of Rest 2/1

Discarded and Broken 1/0

Dread in the Den/Fearbreaker 1/1

Magma-nificence 0/1

Rampage at Nibelgaz Mine 3/2

Revenge in the Rumbling Wastes 0/2

Frolicking in the Fetid Grotto 2/0

Total males 21, Total females 15, 1 duck with shoes.

Hallowfall

Spoiler: 

Light to Velhan's Claim 4/1

Striking Steel 1/5

The Sky's the Limit 4/4

The Last Mage of Hallowfall 1/0

Apart for Purpose 1/0

An Orphan's Dilemma 1/1

What Grows in the Dark 1/1

Memories of the Sky 2/5

The Priory 0/1

Lost in the Darkness 1/1

Crushing Depths 1 male 1 fish

The Weight of Duty 2/0

Rest at Last 2/2

The Mysterious Chef 1/1

Suspicious Neighbors 1/1

Total males 23, Total females 23, 1 fish

Totaling at 75 males 65 females 1 duck with shows and 1 fish, across all the side quest in those 3 zones.

This is every npc the wiki list that you pick up quest from, turn quest into, has dialog, a quest tells you to talk to/buy something from. no accounting for whos important or the like just raw numbers of named male and female npc's to see the ratio and I left out repeat characters which would be an extra 5-6 to both category's across all the zones.

and I skipped Azj-Kahet because screw trying to figure out spider genders.

[allegrian]

Been nagging at me so I figured screw it id just go through every thing.

alive named characters count Isle of dorn side quest.

Spoiler: 

Spores of Dread 1/1 male/female

Behind Closed Doors 6/7

Seven Soldiers 5/6

Lost Lord of the Storm 7/4

Hope, An Anomaly 1/1

The Hermit 1/1

A Titanic Expedition 3/1

Remember Me, Earthen 1/1

Brotherhood in the Skolzgal Wood 3/0

Gems Are Forever 2/2

All Ore Nothing 0/3

Total males 31, Total females 27.


Ringing Deeps

Spoiler: 

The Caretaker of Brunwin's Terrace 0/1

Routine Maintenance 2/0

Envenomed Invasion 2/0

Into the Fog 1/1 duck with shoes/female

Kobold Culture and Integration 6/4

Abysmal Extraction 2/2

Tired of Rest 2/1

Discarded and Broken 1/0

Dread in the Den/Fearbreaker 1/1

Magma-nificence 0/1

Rampage at Nibelgaz Mine 3/2

Revenge in the Rumbling Wastes 0/2

Frolicking in the Fetid Grotto 2/0

Total males 21, Total females 15, 1 duck with shoes.

Hallowfall

Spoiler: 

Light to Velhan's Claim 4/1

Striking Steel 1/5

The Sky's the Limit 4/4

The Last Mage of Hallowfall 1/0

Apart for Purpose 1/0

An Orphan's Dilemma 1/1

What Grows in the Dark 1/1

Memories of the Sky 2/5

The Priory 0/1

Lost in the Darkness 1/1

Crushing Depths 1 male 1 fish

The Weight of Duty 2/0

Rest at Last 2/2

The Mysterious Chef 1/1

Suspicious Neighbors 1/1

Total males 23, Total females 23, 1 fish

Totaling at 75 males 65 females 1 duck with shows and 1 fish, across all the side quest in those 3 zones.

This is every npc the wiki list that you pick up quest from, turn quest into, has dialog, a quest tells you to talk to/buy something from. no accounting for whos important or the like just raw numbers of named male and female npc's to see the ratio and I left out repeat characters which would be an extra 5-6 to both category's across all the zones.

and I skipped Azj-Kahet because screw trying to figure out spider genders.

It's not about the numbers, it's about being cool (and not dying the moment you start being slightly cool). We have lots of cool ladies now but all men are kept depressed with not many action/baddass scenes. I don't even care that much but it's weird to not have baddass men in wow when this was like the testosterone game at each cinematic until Legion.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It's not about the numbers,

No it was very much about numbers.

Females are already overrepresented this expansion. Pass.

Most of the male characters are already established ones.
Like, where's all the dungeon bosses, sidequest characters, etc? You said you explicity didnt name these, but that is where the balance falls off imo.

[allegrian]

No it was very much about numbers.

Oh yeah you're right about those users lol.

[Khaza-R]

Orlando Salvatore who was the lead software engineer, as well as the one behind Plunderstorm as well as MoP remix, just left Blizzard.

Unfortunate. I hope we still get a WoD remix at some point

[Scyth]

Well, my ignore list just increased, thanks for that I guess.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

The problem isn't the gender of the writers nor gender of the characters, it's a general problem with the tone and spirit of the game being lost (exacerbated by but not caused by the writing team's Twitter use). You can see elements of fandom culture in the current lore, as well as excessive tonal modernism (not in the sense of the presence of minorities, but in the sense of the setting just never really feeling like a medieval fantasy setting in any capacity—thanks, selfie cam) in some spots, but this only compounds a gradual degradation of the game's initial tone and especially aesthetic that's really been going on since Legion (earlier in the latter case). I'd rather a bulk of female characters acting like Warcraft III wrote female characters than a bulk of male characters written as modern WoW writes characters (some exceptions; nerubian psychologist is great and gets to stay, I would die and kill for him if only he would want that), whether it be the blustering "cool" characters that are allegedly female-dominant or the "sad eyes at the camera" type characters that are allegedly male-dominant now.

[Worldshaper]

Probably not the best thing to use as a primary source...

Eh, we still use it as a source for lots of things regarding the formation of Azeroth.

Still, though, I keep coming back to Kalimdor's name. Why was Azeroth's "Pangea" known as the Land of Eternal Starlight?

Here's from a Wiki, which presumably quotes Chronicles:

Ordering Azeroth

After battling and imprisoning the Old Gods, the titanic Keepers set out to repair the damage Y'Shaarj's death had caused.

At the continent's center, where Y'Shaarj had settled, an immense hole was torn as Aman'thul ripped Y'Shaarj from the planet's crust, and from which tremendous amounts of arcane energy - the very lifeblood of the world-soul - now seeped.

The Keepers closed the wound in the form of a massive lake of scintillating energies. The lake, which they named the Well of Eternity, was to be the fount of life for the world.

Its potent energies would nurture the bones of the world and nourish life to take root in the land's rich soil. Over time, plants, trees, monsters, and creatures of every kind began to thrive on the primordial continent.

As twilight fell on the final day of their labors, the Titans named the continent Kalimdor: "land of eternal starlight" in their language.

The waters of the Well of Eternity would coalesce in a select few places and create gigantic enclaves of life that Keeper Freya would take care of.

It is from these magically nurtured places - the Un'goro Crater, the Vale of Eternal Blossoms, Sholazar Basin - that the Wild Gods would eventually emerge.

So by the time the Titan-forged finished their work of shaping Azeroth and taking care of the Well of Eternity, day turned into night.

And for some reason, they described it as "eternal".

But every landmass anywhere, and on any planet, should have access to a night sky, so that's not unique to Kalimdor.

Why was this piece of land associated specifically with eternal starlight?

Why did Dark Trolls roam Azeroth at the time, and why did they turn into Night Elves when influenced by the Well of Eternity?

Was darkness, i.e. the night, Azeroth's natural state at the time? Is Midnight, the thing which presumably happens in the expansion with the same name (unless the name simply suggests a state of despair in general, when things are at their darkest), just a return to what it was like back then?

Did Elune sort of constantly watch over this continent?

Had the Old Gods covered it in darkness in a final and desperate act?

Did the Well cause arcane stars to show in the heavens?