1. #79401
    Considering how many times Blizzard has retconned (justifiably) TBC's cracked out experimental lore, K'aresh probably still exists in some form and will be an Argus-type exploration area in Midnight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    It's a 6-way FFA, not 3 1vs1s.
    I think there is something to be said about how Chaos and Void seem to be very similar in MO. Similar to how Light and Order seem to be aligned to the point that they use each others powers. Why are the two pairs so buddy buddy?

    Yes, Sargeras hated the Void and started the Crusade to stop them, but demons use shadow magic all the time and both parties are all about ultimate freedom (from titans) at any cost. The only reason the Crusade was as structured as it was because it was ironically created by a Titan.

  2. #79402
    Quote Originally Posted by OCoyne View Post
    K'aresh is completely blew up, extinct. We won't ever see the planet, its a backstory telling you what Dimensius the All Devouring is capable of.
    Yeah, bc we all know Blizz would NEVER retcon anything as significant as an entire landmass/continent/planet righ-

    *looks at the Broken Isles, Zandalar, Outland, Northrend and a couple of others*

    Oh wait. They do it constantly.

    If they want K'aresh, theyll make K'aresh. Simple as that.
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  3. #79403
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    Ny'alotha was, for all intents and purposes, retconned as an "alternate reality" depicting a world of what could be if N'Zoth (or any of the Old Gods) succeeded.

    Then again, any mention of Ny'alotha before 8.3 never described what or where it was... so for all we know, Ny'alotha may have been intended to be this way from the beginning.

    Blizzard could retcon K'aresh to never have been a planet at all, and instead, it's the collective soul of the Ethereal people. K'aresh isn't a place, it's all of us... together!
    Last edited by KOUNTERPARTS; 2024-10-07 at 03:42 PM.

  4. #79404
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    Considering how many times Blizzard has retconned (justifiably) TBC's cracked out experimental lore, K'aresh probably still exists in some form and will be an Argus-type exploration area in Midnight.
    There's a very small line from TBC, could be a mistake but could also let them argue this.

    At the raid event at Bash'ir Landing in Blade's Edge Mountains, the Grand Collector will appear at the end and shouts "They called me down from K'aresh to deal with this band of misfits? Unbelievable! Prepare to be collected!"

    That seems to indicate K'aresh is still present in some form. At least at the time.

    Of course it is a single line from an NPC back in TBC but it is something they can capitalize on.

  5. #79405
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiivar86 View Post
    There's a very small line from TBC, could be a mistake but could also let them argue this.

    At the raid event at Bash'ir Landing in Blade's Edge Mountains, the Grand Collector will appear at the end and shouts "They called me down from K'aresh to deal with this band of misfits? Unbelievable! Prepare to be collected!"

    That seems to indicate K'aresh is still present in some form. At least at the time.

    Of course it is a single line from an NPC back in TBC but it is something they can capitalize on.
    K'aresh could be a perfect opportunity to re-do and fine tune their approach to the "broken planet" design they originally went with for Outland and rehashed in 7.3. for Argus.

  6. #79406
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    K'aresh could be a perfect opportunity to re-do and fine tune their approach to the "broken planet" design they originally went with for Outland and rehashed in 7.3. for Argus.
    This is a really cool idea. That "broken planet" design is pretty huge for WoW, and exploring it further allows for a great ability to build on their scifi aspects.

    I do feel that K'aresh is probably the last opportunity for that, but I really cannot envision a reality where we do not see K'aresh during this saga.

  7. #79407
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    Quote Originally Posted by OCoyne View Post
    K'aresh is completely blew up, extinct.
    You keep saying that, but the lore of K'aresh and the Ethereals is flimsy at best and non-existent at worst.

    Planetary destruction has never prevented any world from being walkable and inhabited in this franchise.
    And the little bit of Ethereal lore we do have has them protect their cities with Arcane barriers.
    We even have Ethereal NPCs that come from there.

    If Blizzard wants it, they will add it and they don't even have to retcon anything to do it.


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  8. #79408
    Karesh is surely a when and not an if at this point.

    Other than to go back in time to it's destruction to see how the void conquered it, I'm not sure right now why we need to go there.

    I'm sure that will become apparent however.

  9. #79409
    Quote Originally Posted by Holdodlig View Post
    Maybe the void isn't eating or destroying anything, but simply relocating everything ? After all, they aren't the enemies of the Titans on the cosmic chart. Chaos is.
    I always liked to headcanon that the Void didn't actually obliterate things, but instead abstracted them into infinite possibility, reducing them to a part of itself in a kind of assimilationist way, which seems aesthetically-compliant with what we see it doing in Mac'aree. That said, I think K'aresh was probably at least heavily damaged in an attempted consumption, looking something like Outland or Telogrus.
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  10. #79410
    Quote Originally Posted by Raetary View Post

    If Blizzard wants it, they will add it and they don't even have to retcon anything to do it.
    Then what's the point in the almost 4000 pages in this thread when to answer to anything is they can retcon it when they want to. You can only act on evidence in the present time.

    Besides, what would actually be the purpose, because as far as I'm concerned there wouldn't be any. By then the Void will be subjugated and another cosmic force will be causing havoc, the expansion doesn't end with Dimensius dies and everyone lives happily ever after because the Void and it's opposite cosmic force cannot live with each other, therefore Light needs the Void to exist.

    And thematically Blizzard has always jumped from one cosmic force to another per expansion - All the way from Vanilla til now every expansion so far in order has been Death, to Disorder, to Death, to Void to Disorder, to Void, to Death now we're back to Void.

    Which means the next saga is either Disorder or Death - The former makes more sense considering what the Last Titan entails but that's exactly why they kept Denathrius alive for a new storyline regarding Death.

    I thought it was obvious as the colour of my next turd the next planet being visited would be Nathreza considering it got huge mentions in the Antorus raid also.
    Last edited by OCoyne; 2024-10-08 at 03:02 AM.

  11. #79411
    The Lightbringer Nightshade711's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raetary View Post
    You keep saying that, but the lore of K'aresh and the Ethereals is flimsy at best and non-existent at worst.

    Planetary destruction has never prevented any world from being walkable and inhabited in this franchise.
    And the little bit of Ethereal lore we do have has them protect their cities with Arcane barriers.
    We even have Ethereal NPCs that come from there.

    If Blizzard wants it, they will add it and they don't even have to retcon anything to do it.
    What’s funny is that he’s even wrong there.
    There have been Ethereals that have mentioned K’aresh still being inhabited in some way or form. (Like the one Ethereal mentioning he had to come down from K’aresh etc)


    Though I do think that Telogrus is one part of K’aresh, given what little lore we know of Telogrus does line up a bit with what little we know of K’aresh.


    I could absolutely see a K’aresh final patch for Midnight where we actually kill Dimensius. (Or contain him like Sargeras but that’d just make Midnight even more like Legion than it already sounds.)
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  12. #79412
    Wowhead posted about some new dialogue in Dornogal on the PTR, and it sounds like rather than Undermine, or Goblins in the Rootlands, the Goblin and Arathi plotlines might be coming together in a new area that I haven't seen predicted.

    Gazlowe's Goblins discovered a big crystal that seems to be calling to them on a nearby island, they plan to go back and investigate more, rumors are starting to spread, the Arathi are building a new airbase on the surface for a mysterious journey, and the Earthen formed a new group called the Stormrangers to act as scouts and explore.

    Even with that little information, an obvious major likely possibility stands out- the Goblins found the top of Beledar on another island, and we'll be going there with various groups to investigate. And with the Goblin involvement, it seems like the datamined Goblin raid will be there.

    And if that's 11.1, that leaves the Rootlands for 11.2. And maybe Azeroth's core and Titan stuff will be present there, since that seems like the obvious climax of TWW?


    Quote Originally Posted by OCoyne View Post
    Then what's the point in the almost 4000 pages in this thread when to answer to anything is they can retcon it when they want to. You can only act on evidence in the present time.

    Besides, what would actually be the purpose, because as far as I'm concerned there wouldn't be any. By then the Void will be subjugated and another cosmic force will be causing havoc, the expansion doesn't end with Dimensius dies and everyone lives happily ever after because the Void and it's opposite cosmic force cannot live with each other, therefore Light needs the Void to exist.

    And thematically Blizzard has always jumped from one cosmic force to another per expansion - All the way from Vanilla til now every expansion so far in order has been Death, to Disorder, to Death, to Void to Disorder, to Void, to Death now we're back to Void.

    Which means the next saga is either Disorder or Death - The former makes more sense considering what the Last Titan entails but that's exactly why they kept Denathrius alive for a new storyline regarding Death.

    I thought it was obvious as the colour of my next turd the next planet being visited would be Nathreza considering it got huge mentions in the Antorus raid also.
    All of this kind of misses the point that people are expecting us to visit K'aresh during this Void-heavy Saga, not after it. Personally, I think it would fit best during Midnight, as the climax of the war with the Void. It seems like a good fit when we're dealing with the same threat that destroyed it and Xal'atath seems to be working for Dimensius.

    And its current state is vague enough that it wouldn't really need a retcon. Yes, it was destroyed, but so was Draenor, yet Draenor's remnants were still inhabitable enough to have an expansion there. And in K'aresh's case, we already have at least one character referencing returning there already.
    Last edited by Eldryth; 2024-10-08 at 04:54 AM.

  13. #79413
    Hm.

    The Earth Mother mythology states that:

    - She was giant.

    - She roamed the land pretty much alone at first, with only the Elementals to accompany her.

    - It was during a time when the Old Gods were lurking below Azeroth. Interestingly, they are described as "trapped," which would seem to suggest that this was after the Titans had already been there and left a host of Titan-forged in their wake. Unless the Old Gods were sort of trapped before the Black Empire, but that would seen strange.

    - She created day and night, winter and summer.

    - She shaped the land.

    - She created fire.

    - When she slept (winter) new life emerged. Plants and animals.

    I don't think the story is literal history of course. It's the way Tauren make sense of the ancient past, before they had any written accounts of history. They're storytellers and nomads, so allegory, stories around the campfire and animistic beliefs probably works for them.

    That said, it almost sounds a bit like Eonar or Freya are the Earth Mother. Or, God forbid, a "First One," if that lore is still accurate.

    The myth goes on to say that she created the Tauren, and that there would be an eventual darkening.

    One theory could be that a First One, the Worldsoul, or something else very ancient walked Azeroth between the time it was struck by a Shard of Light, and just prior to the rise of the Black Enpire. Heck, she might even have arrived inside the Shard, as a creature of pure Light sent to bring Life to Azeroth.

    Another theory could be that she is Eonar or Freyja, and that once the Titans had trapped the Old Gods beneath Azeroth, she aided in the Shaping of Kalimdor, and ensured the world resembled more of what we have today, with a day and night cycle, seasons, abundant life, etc.

    When Kalimdor was "finished," it says the world entered twilight. But was this literal twilight before Nightfall, or was it figurative meaning a long period of time before Midnight happens?

    Descriptions of the Well of Eternity in the history of the Trolls says that Elune slept in the waters by day and danced in it by night. Then, obviously, Dark Trolls turned into Night Elves. So there was day and night by that point.

    But we know Eonar is meant to be Elune's great love or something to that degree. So, unless that means "mother," I'm going to assume Eonar and Freyja are not the Earth Mother.

    Maybe it goes a bit like this, in terms of hierarchy: Earth Mother (whatever she is) > Elune and the Winter Queen > Eonar > Freyja > Alexstrasza and Ysera > various Druids.

    The Earth Mother might just be an amalgamation of different stories from the past, though. A bit of Elemental lore, a bit of Elune lore, a bit of Titan and Old God lore.
    Last edited by Worldshaper; 2024-10-08 at 05:41 AM.

  14. #79414
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldryth View Post
    Wowhead posted about some new dialogue in Dornogal on the PTR, and it sounds like rather than Undermine, or Goblins in the Rootlands, the Goblin and Arathi plotlines might be coming together in a new area that I haven't seen predicted.

    Gazlowe's Goblins discovered a big crystal that seems to be calling to them on a nearby island, they plan to go back and investigate more, rumors are starting to spread, the Arathi are building a new airbase on the surface for a mysterious journey, and the Earthen formed a new group called the Stormrangers to act as scouts and explore.

    Even with that little information, an obvious major likely possibility stands out- the Goblins found the top of Beledar on another island, and we'll be going there with various groups to investigate. And with the Goblin involvement, it seems like the datamined Goblin raid will be there.

    And if that's 11.1, that leaves the Rootlands for 11.2. And maybe Azeroth's core and Titan stuff will be present there, since that seems like the obvious climax of TWW?




    All of this kind of misses the point that people are expecting us to visit K'aresh during this Void-heavy Saga, not after it. Personally, I think it would fit best during Midnight, as the climax of the war with the Void. It seems like a good fit when we're dealing with the same threat that destroyed it and Xal'atath seems to be working for Dimensius.

    And its current state is vague enough that it wouldn't really need a retcon. Yes, it was destroyed, but so was Draenor, yet Draenor's remnants were still inhabitable enough to have an expansion there. And in K'aresh's case, we already have at least one character referencing returning there already.
    Not sure what to think of the idea that the Beledar top would be just on another new random island, does that even work with the implied scale of the current zones when layered on top? Also, why would no one have found that island before?

    Maybe they always intended to do the Beledar sidepatch with the Megadungeon (hence the stairs connecting it to hallowfall) but because of technical issues they went with the island route (and also to give us a break from underground stuff). Still could lead us from Beledar Island (1.7) to Undermine (2.0) and than us coming back to the Rootlands (2.5 or 2.7?) (although again there must have been some change since the rootlands seemingly were supposed to be much earlier originally??) and the Coreway / Heart of Azeroth / Under Silithus (3.0) for the finale?

  15. #79415
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Not sure what to think of the idea that the Beledar top would be just on another new random island, does that even work with the implied scale of the current zones when layered on top? Also, why would no one have found that island before?

    Maybe they always intended to do the Beledar sidepatch with the Megadungeon (hence the stairs connecting it to hallowfall) but because of technical issues they went with the island route (and also to give us a break from underground stuff). Still could lead us from Beledar Island (1.7) to Undermine (2.0) and than us coming back to the Rootlands (2.5 or 2.7?) (although again there must have been some change since the rootlands seemingly were supposed to be much earlier originally??) and the Coreway / Heart of Azeroth / Under Silithus (3.0) for the finale?
    The way the goblins talk about the island seems to imply they feel compelled to turn back as soon as they set foot on the island. Or that something prevents them from staying there long.

    Mostly I am just slightly disappointed we don't seem to be approaching the Beledar from below. As that seemed like the way the story was going, what with being able to see the Beledar from Hallowfall, along with the Dawnbreaker presumably being able to fend off the attacks as they cross the Sunless sea.
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  16. #79416
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    In other news, shouldn't we getting the release date for the patch this week if it's gonna come out on the 23rd?

    Also I guess they will do a 1.7 reveal shortly afterwards so that warcraft direct can focus on the roadmap and 2.0? It seems too early to announce Midnights features as well, but on the other hand, they can't wait till winter next year for that either. Since we already know the basic premise, maybe they end the show with a features teaser like "class halls coming back, all classes for all races and housing" or something? So they can do the proper zones preview later, while giving us stuff to look forward that's not interfering with TWW's content patches anyways.

  17. #79417
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    Yeah, bc we all know Blizz would NEVER retcon anything as significant as an entire landmass/continent/planet righ-

    *looks at the Broken Isles, Zandalar, Outland, Northrend and a couple of others*

    Oh wait. They do it constantly.

    If they want K'aresh, theyll make K'aresh. Simple as that.
    Quote Originally Posted by OCoyne View Post
    Then what's the point in the almost 4000 pages in this thread when to answer to anything is they can retcon it when they want to. You can only act on evidence in the present time.
    I point this out every time this argument is brought up, but people need to stop conflating "destroyed" with "erased from existence".

    There is no need to retcon anything. K'aresh isn't a small village, it's an entire planet. 99.999% of it could have been reduced to atoms, and that tiny shielded fragment left behind would still be thousands of square miles. Draenor was destroyed and we still had Outland.

    A planet torn to shreds, half-suspended out of the Void is a perfect Ethereal setting and a ready-made visual setpiece for skyboxes.

  18. #79418
    New island is obviously the top part of beledar. Could be entrance to mecha dungeon. Might be a forbidden reach typed zone for 0.7? could also be a pathway from surface down into hallowfall. Not sure if they are doing a megadungeon in 0.7, but might have a closed door that opens later or something.
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  19. #79419
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Not sure what to think of the idea that the Beledar top would be just on another new random island, does that even work with the implied scale of the current zones when layered on top? Also, why would no one have found that island before?

    Maybe they always intended to do the Beledar sidepatch with the Megadungeon (hence the stairs connecting it to hallowfall) but because of technical issues they went with the island route (and also to give us a break from underground stuff). Still could lead us from Beledar Island (1.7) to Undermine (2.0) and than us coming back to the Rootlands (2.5 or 2.7?) (although again there must have been some change since the rootlands seemingly were supposed to be much earlier originally??) and the Coreway / Heart of Azeroth / Under Silithus (3.0) for the finale?
    It would be south of Silithus, but for it to be the tip of Beledar it would have to be at the bottom of a deep cave reaching the bottom of the ocean. It does sound like Beledar though, given the call the goblins heard. Notably it sounds like it has been discovered in the past but has been abandoned, so it could've spilled out some void creatures when it turned the first time and killed everyone there.

  20. #79420
    Hmm.

    Airships could suggest two things. Either the skies above this island will become relevant, or they need a way to travel faster than what regular ships would allow, implying that the island is far away, or simply that it's a race against time.

    But building an entire new airbase for airship construction seems costly and slow if they just want to get there right away. Why not use the Alliance and Horde ships that just arrived?

    The tip of the Beledar makes sense, but I'm not sure if it fits since Hallowfall is pretty deep into the planet. Still, it's probably the most logical guess at this point.

    An Oshu'gun type scenario would be pretty neat. But would they want to mimic the battleground Seething Shore so closely?

    It would be neat if it was a patch mostly set in the sky, perhaps if the crystal caused unexpected properties for the surround area's physics. Island floating like Pandora or Nagrand.

    Or at least if the island felt a bit exotic, in stark contrast with Khaz Algar in general. Lush jungles, tropical beaches, etc.

    The goblin involvement makes me think there might be digging and machinery involved. Perhaps they're even trying to mine the crystal.

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