1. #79461
    At the very least, Elune appears to have very strong ties to both Life and Light. Shadowlands did more or less state that she's the Winter Queen's sister from the realm of Life, yet Legion showed that she most likely created the Prime Naaru (Khadgar found it as a theory, which was all but confirmed when his idea to use the Tears of Elune on Light's Heart worked). And there's also her relationship with Eonar, who loved her according to the Elun'ahir book.

    Also, didn't the Night Warrior lore from Shadowlands show that she has worshippers on other worlds as well? If I'm remembering that right, that should rule out her being anything too specific to Azeroth in particular.

  2. #79462
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    The next major patch/storyline being Beledar focused would make sense given the hints in 11.0.5 PTR, and the fact that we’ve got a light/holy recolor of the M+ mount.
    If they wish to match the mount with the season themes like they did in DF.
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    what exactly makes Dwarves an underground race?

  3. #79463
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Eh, the English translation team doing the German version would certainly explain it.
    I'm confused, are you talking about WoW or XIV now?

    But ignoring a possible joke, the German localization of WoW was headed by the then-center of Blizzard Europe in Paris. You can tell by the crocolisks - no, really! In both French and German, it's not merging Crocodile and Basilisk into Crocolisk, but Crocilisque/Krokilisk, to this day. Locales using the Latin alphabet that were added later do not do this, it's "Crocolisco" in Spanish, Italian and Portuguese.
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  4. #79464
    It's a bit interesting to consider that Midnight is pretty much TBC 3.0 with a renewed focus on Quel'thalas, and the possibility of a similar off-world adventure with a visit to K'aresh.

    TLT, meanwhile, is sort of like WotLK.

    I think Metzen feels right at home with the old school lore in those expansions.

    Imagine the hype leading up to TLT. They'll want to throw in as many fan favourites as possible, I think, to connect it to the past. Maybe an opening cinematic in which we see Tyr or Odyn summon the Titans from Ulduar?

    Imagine all the cool stuff they'll do. A bunch of proto dragon mounts. Icecrown Citadel torn down or repurposed. Sholazar Basin even more overgrown than previously, even reaching into other zones a bit.

  5. #79465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    It's a bit interesting to consider that Midnight is pretty much TBC 3.0 with a renewed focus on Quel'thalas, and the possibility of a similar off-world adventure with a visit to K'aresh.

    TLT, meanwhile, is sort of like WotLK.

    I think Metzen feels right at home with the old school lore in those expansions.

    Imagine the hype leading up to TLT. They'll want to throw in as many fan favourites as possible, I think, to connect it to the past. Maybe an opening cinematic in which we see Tyr or Odyn summon the Titans from Ulduar?

    Imagine all the cool stuff they'll do. A bunch of proto dragon mounts. Icecrown Citadel torn down or repurposed. Sholazar Basin even more overgrown than previously, even reaching into other zones a bit.
    That is an interesting perspective, yeah re: TBC/WotLK. I do hope they are able to build up and up with those two. The return to Northrend could be absolutely insane - especially if they wreck the place as much as seems to be implied, which could really rule.

    Re: Elune I'm still going with my wife's theory - "Elune is a spaceship" (as in an AI controlling a spaceship), which she came up with in Vanilla and has stuck to ever since! She certainly seems to be Life-aligned more than Light-aligned.
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  6. #79466
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    It's a bit interesting to consider that Midnight is pretty much TBC 3.0 with a renewed focus on Quel'thalas, and the possibility of a similar off-world adventure with a visit to K'aresh.

    TLT, meanwhile, is sort of like WotLK.

    I think Metzen feels right at home with the old school lore in those expansions.

    Imagine the hype leading up to TLT. They'll want to throw in as many fan favourites as possible, I think, to connect it to the past. Maybe an opening cinematic in which we see Tyr or Odyn summon the Titans from Ulduar?

    Imagine all the cool stuff they'll do. A bunch of proto dragon mounts. Icecrown Citadel torn down or repurposed. Sholazar Basin even more overgrown than previously, even reaching into other zones a bit.
    I totally agree with the take on Metzen feeling at home here. I think they're going to both be incredible expansions. Doing Ulduar TW this week has made me incredibly excited, but it's also given me another thought;

    While aspects (pun) of Dragonflight were fun, I felt that the overall Titan and Dragon aesthetic was toned down from it's predecessors in earlier expansions.

    Please bear with me because it's the only term that I can think of to describe how I feel, I promise I am not saying this in a provacative way, buuuuut the overall feeling was that it lost a lot of its teeth... the edges smooted out, it was overall far softer than previous. (Again, sorry)

    Adopting modern graphics and sticking to the art style that is currently in game will do that, but I felt the overal armor and weapon designs and color coding of the Dragonflights felt very drab. I've felt that a lot of WoW color palettes have been off lately, there's a reluctancy to move past a two tone pattern and all of the golds/bronzes/silvers have these odd tints to them that don't match anything else.

    But just as much, the Titan constructs felt very clean, which I hope is pivoted from in TLT. Ulduar and Northrend in general really felt so hostile. I hope we can recapture that sense of danger in the landscape first, let alone the enemies we find there.

  7. #79467
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    Quote Originally Posted by milkmustache View Post
    I totally agree with the take on Metzen feeling at home here. I think they're going to both be incredible expansions. Doing Ulduar TW this week has made me incredibly excited, but it's also given me another thought;

    While aspects (pun) of Dragonflight were fun, I felt that the overall Titan and Dragon aesthetic was toned down from it's predecessors in earlier expansions.

    Please bear with me because it's the only term that I can think of to describe how I feel, I promise I am not saying this in a provacative way, buuuuut the overall feeling was that it lost a lot of its teeth... the edges smooted out, it was overall far softer than previous. (Again, sorry)

    Adopting modern graphics and sticking to the art style that is currently in game will do that, but I felt the overal armor and weapon designs and color coding of the Dragonflights felt very drab. I've felt that a lot of WoW color palettes have been off lately, there's a reluctancy to move past a two tone pattern and all of the golds/bronzes/silvers have these odd tints to them that don't match anything else.

    But just as much, the Titan constructs felt very clean, which I hope is pivoted from in TLT. Ulduar and Northrend in general really felt so hostile. I hope we can recapture that sense of danger in the landscape first, let alone the enemies we find there.
    I think that's a pretty reasonable comment re: the Titan aesthetic - I feel like since SL WoW has kind of been in a difficult period look-wise, where they're transitioning to a much higher-res and higher-poly look on both enemies and equipment, and it often ends up being a bit too clean as a result. I don't think it's some EviL BliZarD ManaGeMent deal trying to "dUm4 D0wn" WoW or whatever, but just a matter of an aesthetic that is having difficulty making the leap to "HD" as it were. TWW seems to "get it" a lot more than SL/DF did imho.

    Re: two-tone pattern, that on the other hand is pretty clearly intentional, and I think it is a bit tricky because it's produced some complete masterpieces (honestly the current-tier Monk set is stunning and the Warrior one is awesome too imho, and several others are good - only the DK set stands out as "What the fuck were you thinking?", but that's fair play given DKs have had more great sets than maybe any other class), but also a lot of not-bad but rather yawnsome pieces. I feel you re gold/silver/bronze too - I think they've moved away from that with the current raid Tier (and items), and I expect them to stay away, but they started on that with Maw, doubled down on it with Sepulcher, and kept on with it a bit into DF. I feel like it's forgivable - every MMO does it sooner or later (usually much sooner!) - i.e. goes for a period with an aesthetic that's "not quite right", but I would like to see armour with more like 3+ major tones rather than two, even if it's easier to end up fugly (and it is).

    And yeah, I definitely want TLT Northrend to feel hostile again - hopefully the seemingly-massive disruption will let them achieve that.
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  8. #79468
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    I think that's a pretty reasonable comment re: the Titan aesthetic - I feel like since SL WoW has kind of been in a difficult period look-wise, where they're transitioning to a much higher-res and higher-poly look on both enemies and equipment, and it often ends up being a bit too clean as a result. I don't think it's some EviL BliZarD ManaGeMent deal trying to "dUm4 D0wn" WoW or whatever, but just a matter of an aesthetic that is having difficulty making the leap to "HD" as it were. TWW seems to "get it" a lot more than SL/DF did imho.

    Re: two-tone pattern, that on the other hand is pretty clearly intentional, and I think it is a bit tricky because it's produced some complete masterpieces (honestly the current-tier Monk set is stunning and the Warrior one is awesome too imho, and several others are good - only the DK set stands out as "What the fuck were you thinking?", but that's fair play given DKs have had more great sets than maybe any other class), but also a lot of not-bad but rather yawnsome pieces. I feel you re gold/silver/bronze too - I think they've moved away from that with the current raid Tier (and items), and I expect them to stay away, but they started on that with Maw, doubled down on it with Sepulcher, and kept on with it a bit into DF. I feel like it's forgivable - every MMO does it sooner or later (usually much sooner!) - i.e. goes for a period with an aesthetic that's "not quite right", but I would like to see armour with more like 3+ major tones rather than two, even if it's easier to end up fugly (and it is).
    I should have left a footnote stating that TWW has massively improved over DF in this regard. The tier sets for the most part look incredible (I'm a big time hater of the Paladin set, I feel like their aesthetic is completely lost at the moment).

    I generally love the more traditional armor look (the conquistador looking store set does this very well), but the lack in differentiation on it somtimes is intense. Also, just because it's plate doesn't mean that every piece of it has to be plate. Throw in a leather strap or two please! But as I said, we're getting better.

  9. #79469
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    Quote Originally Posted by milkmustache View Post
    I should have left a footnote stating that TWW has massively improved over DF in this regard. The tier sets for the most part look incredible (I'm a big time hater of the Paladin set, I feel like their aesthetic is completely lost at the moment).
    Oh my god that set is so dopey. It really feels like Paladins and DKs are paying for having like a zillion great Tier sets (seriously, no other class is even close) with practically "DERP" level Tier sets this time! The DK one looks like the lovechild of a Lego skeleton and a cast-iron fence, and the Paladin one just looks like really bad cosplay. Those wings particularly look and move like they're made of cheap foam. My wife literally gasped when she saw them and then couldn't stop laughing.

    Quote Originally Posted by milkmustache View Post
    I generally love the more traditional armor look (the conquistador looking store set does this very well), but the lack in differentiation on it somtimes is intense. Also, just because it's plate doesn't mean that every piece of it has to be plate. Throw in a leather strap or two please! But as I said, we're getting better.
    Agree re: plate (same for other amour types, just because it's leather doesn't mean it can't have a metal breastplate or something). The Warrior plate looks cool AF imho so there's that.
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  10. #79470
    I agree with the above posts.

    The thing I care the absolute most for, though, is world design.

    Old expansions had amazing ambience. The zones felt like they existed, not for us to see them but because they're part of a world.

    The music also had a major impact on this; it was simpler back in the day. Especially between Vanilla - WotLK.

    I'm newer expansions, like the story, it got so bombastic, always demanding your attention. Zones became more like themeparks as a result. Great the first time but quickly got old.

    They started returning to form a bit with Dragonflight though. But The War Within instead suffers from having hyper-stylised zones in the underground biome. In a sense, they have the same effect as Outland and the Shadowlands. It takes you out of the world, a bit.

    For Midnight and especially TLT, I hope we get really low key ambient music, regular skyboxes, and natural biomes.

  11. #79471
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    Oh my god that set is so dopey. It really feels like Paladins and DKs are paying for having like a zillion great Tier sets (seriously, no other class is even close) with practically "DERP" level Tier sets this time! The DK one looks like the lovechild of a Lego skeleton and a cast-iron fence, and the Paladin one just looks like really bad cosplay. Those wings particularly look and move like they're made of cheap foam. My wife literally gasped when she saw them and then couldn't stop laughing.
    Let's be honest though. If we didnt get the Arathi plate set available to start with, then it would have been a Paladin set and everyone would have talked about how it was one of the best ones in the game.

    DK sets though really jsut need to stop focusing on skulls all the time. Really feels like the designers are too lazy with getting across the theme of death in their DK sets.
    Rusted armour. Plagued dragon scales. Wells of diseased water. Dead trees. etc. All of these could make for the basis for a great set, and yet we always fall back on either skulls, or a variant on the Arthas appearance.


    Other sets look great though. The Evoker sets are a bit tied down to the idea of looking like a dragon aspect. But at least the one we got for this tier with it being Deathwing inspired is absolutely amazing. Even if the set suffers immensely from not being able to transmog outside Visage form.
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  12. #79472
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Let's be honest though. If we didnt get the Arathi plate set available to start with, then it would have been a Paladin set and everyone would have talked about how it was one of the best ones in the game.

    DK sets though really jsut need to stop focusing on skulls all the time. Really feels like the designers are too lazy with getting across the theme of death in their DK sets.
    Rusted armour. Plagued dragon scales. Wells of diseased water. Dead trees. etc. All of these could make for the basis for a great set, and yet we always fall back on either skulls, or a variant on the Arthas appearance.


    Other sets look great though. The Evoker sets are a bit tied down to the idea of looking like a dragon aspect. But at least the one we got for this tier with it being Deathwing inspired is absolutely amazing. Even if the set suffers immensely from not being able to transmog outside Visage form.
    Great point about the Paladin sets, the Arathi sets across the board (except for cloth) are incredible and a real treat. Cloth is a bit much and stale, IMO, but I appreciate the attempt.

    I agree about Death Knights... it seems like "death" is the only part they can remember. The skulled candleabra set is a really strange design choice. Death Knights have incredible lore. Theres a general lack of darkness and eeriness to them. I feel like I still see a lot of DK players using the Acherus set as a transmog option because it does such a good job at portraying this fallen knight image.

  13. #79473
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldryth View Post
    Wowhead posted about some new dialogue in Dornogal on the PTR, and it sounds like rather than Undermine, or Goblins in the Rootlands, the Goblin and Arathi plotlines might be coming together in a new area that I haven't seen predicted.

    Gazlowe's Goblins discovered a big crystal that seems to be calling to them on a nearby island, they plan to go back and investigate more, rumors are starting to spread, the Arathi are building a new airbase on the surface for a mysterious journey, and the Earthen formed a new group called the Stormrangers to act as scouts and explore.

    Even with that little information, an obvious major likely possibility stands out- the Goblins found the top of Beledar on another island, and we'll be going there with various groups to investigate. And with the Goblin involvement, it seems like the datamined Goblin raid will be there.

    And if that's 11.1, that leaves the Rootlands for 11.2. And maybe Azeroth's core and Titan stuff will be present there, since that seems like the obvious climax of TWW?




    All of this kind of misses the point that people are expecting us to visit K'aresh during this Void-heavy Saga, not after it. Personally, I think it would fit best during Midnight, as the climax of the war with the Void. It seems like a good fit when we're dealing with the same threat that destroyed it and Xal'atath seems to be working for Dimensius.

    And its current state is vague enough that it wouldn't really need a retcon. Yes, it was destroyed, but so was Draenor, yet Draenor's remnants were still inhabitable enough to have an expansion there. And in K'aresh's case, we already have at least one character referencing returning there already.
    Guess Blizz is saving Undermine and Kezan as a scraping the bottom of the barrel expansion idea for the future

  14. #79474
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    I have the feeling that Metzen might not be the biggest fan of this robo elune idea, so I think they still most likely find a way to make that "sister" a bff or something.
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  15. #79475
    Quote Originally Posted by Pheraz View Post
    I have the feeling that Metzen might not be the biggest fan of this robo elune idea, so I think they still most likely find a way to make that "sister" a bff or something.
    Although I feel we will never truly find out what Elune is (and maybe we shouldn't). Making her into anything resembling shadowlands robots is absolutely the last thing they should do.

  16. #79476
    Quote Originally Posted by Telogrus View Post
    Guess Blizz is saving Undermine and Kezan as a scraping the bottom of the barrel expansion idea for the future
    Tbh, Undermine has a lot potential if they treat it like a Hearthstone Gadgetzan on crack. I think people are a little too stuck on the idea its all just goblins and sludge.

    But also, a completely abandoned island doesn't really sound like patch zone material.

    Maybe the next patch takes place entirely inside the Beledar? That would definitely be the most unique zone they've ever done.

  17. #79477
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    Quote Originally Posted by Telogrus View Post
    Guess Blizz is saving Undermine and Kezan as a scraping the bottom of the barrel expansion idea for the future
    An expansion would be preferable TBH. An expansion would give that area the justice it deserves as a continent-sized city as intended by Blizzard in vanilla. It would also facilitate the Tinker class.

    That said, if 11.1 isn't Undermine, I do wonder when they plan on implementing it. It's clearly coming at some point, since it's getting name dropped rather consistently, and Gazlowe is moving into a more visible role.

  18. #79478
    Quote Originally Posted by Pheraz View Post
    I have the feeling that Metzen might not be the biggest fan of this robo elune idea, so I think they still most likely find a way to make that "sister" a bff or something.
    Life deity that was sent to the Shadowlands in ages past to help her sister uphold the balance. Her spirit went into that robotic form as a sort of avatar. Boom, fixed.

    That, or Elune simply makes allies everywhere, and they treat her like close family or a lover. Eonar from Order, the Winter Queen from Death, etc.

  19. #79479
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    An expansion would be preferable TBH. An expansion would give that area the justice it deserves as a continent-sized city as intended by Blizzard in vanilla. It would also facilitate the Tinker class.

    That said, if 11.1 isn't Undermine, I do wonder when they plan on implementing it. It's clearly coming at some point, since it's getting name dropped rather consistently, and Gazlowe is moving into a more visible role.
    It would be pretty easy to fit Gazlow and goblins in an underground expansion without "wasting" Undermine. They could very well just pull out a smaller goblin town or outpost from their ass and make it zone, that would be a nice way to test the water for the appeal of goblins for the general playerbase.
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  20. #79480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    I'm newer expansions, like the story, it got so bombastic, always demanding your attention. Zones became more like themeparks as a result. Great the first time but quickly got old.
    I would say, having played since Vanilla, this isn't as true as you're suggesting. The music in more recent expansions does tend to draw more attention to itself, but in the older expansions it just varied wildly. Even in Vanilla there was music that was incredibly bombastic and overwhelming, like the old Ironforge music, which was I swear the number 1 reason people turned off the music in WoW (given Ironforge was the "default" city for most Alliance players, not Stormwind, in Vanilla).

    TBC has a lot of sort of almost ghostly pieces which really do fit into the background, because Matt Uelman did a bunch of them, and he's always been good at music that's memorable and effective,

    WoW has always had pretty themepark-y zones too, by older MMO standards. It was literally one of the first criticisms of the game. Cataclysm's approach to quest design and it loving pop culture jokes more than anything else in the world really pushed WoW over the edge, theme-park-wise, not any music changes. Redridge Classic vs Redridge Cataclysm is a great example of this. You're basically forced to re-enact an entire particularly dumb Rambo movie, which is incredibly unimmersive and against any kind of real "WoW" vibes (despite some people loving it), and that turns the whole zone into a themepark. Where before it had been one of the more mysterious and less theme-park-y zones.

    But as early as WotLK there was a lot of WoW zone music that was shouting LOOK AT ME, and some of it is much-praised (like Grizzly Hills - it's extremely distinctive and makes you focus on it, but again some people love that).

    And really people consistently praising many of the most bombastic pieces, rather than the most atmospheric ones has I think steered Blizzard towards making pretty bombastic music.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    An expansion would be preferable TBH. An expansion would give that area the justice it deserves as a continent-sized city as intended by Blizzard in vanilla. It would also facilitate the Tinker class.
    There's literally no possibility of them doing an entire expansion that is "GOBLIN CITY" as the core-four zones. It would never happen. They just don't do zone themes/scales like that. Never have.

    Realistically Undermine would be one zone of the four. Which would be pretty similar in scale to it appearing as a new zone added in a content patch within a different expansion, though probably a bit more "in-depth" if an expansion zone rather than a content patch.
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