The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Schwert]

I was rather concerned that Blizzard was going to walk away with the wrong understanding of this, willfully or unintentionally; I'm unsure what to make of this on that front. Whether they have the best of intentions or they really are just looking for a craven out from Twitter criticism, I was at least initially worried that they would just boil it down to "we acknowledged rape exists" instead of "we raped people in real life" and refuse entirely to touch dark plotlines with a 50-foot pole for the foreseeable future. Yet, they are at least acknowledging the event, yet only in a very roundabout and indirect way that may not substitute sufficiently unless you know the history behind the quest's alteration. I am hoping they'll touch a bit more on the bit about Alexstrasza's darker history and give her some character rather than throw this out there and never acknowledge it again. It also now fails to accomplish the original intention since it involves you being the great big hero who does a perfectly morally-good thing in your undertaking to preserve the timeways instead of showing how simultaneously horrible and banal the Bronze Dragonflight's charge is. I'm also very happy that they actually kept any variant of the quest to begin with, since that does at least mean that they're leaning further away from what I'm concerned about than I initially though they would, and that they may actually touch on Alexstrasza's history going forward.

As an aside, I'm also somewhat concerned about the professional security of the employee that wrote or designed the original quest. I could see them getting the sack to satiate Twitter's misguided sense of mob justice even if they were only some intern who didn't even think through the implications and just scrolled over Alexstrasza's Wowpedia page to get a general idea of some tragic event in her past they could use. I could see Blizzard's executives throwing the poor moron to the wolves, even though the actual moral fault lies with the executives as the people who coerced the victims and destroyed unions to begin with.

I'm actually concerned about this as well, and I'm a survivor of sexual assault myself.
The tone of the original quest was off, but it's an adult game and we're supposed to be adults and we can have dark senses of humour. "Don't tell Alex." got me a mild chuckle even though I thought the thing was screwed up, and frankly, I expect things to be screwed up in an IP based around war. I'm apparently not as pissed off as I "should be" over the quest's original iteration though, so I've flat out been told I condone the awful crap that's been done to me by people who seriously need to learn how people cope.

I'm just disappointed it was changed entirely.
People can talk as much as they want about wanting complex stories, but the moment it involves something dark, they demand it never happen and those wanting to explore those stories as condoning those things IRL, when it'd be nice for the quest to have been changed to acknowledge how awful things were, and lament that it had to happen because we cannot change the past. XIV does these sort of things, Yotsuyu being a fantastic example, but WoW just refuses to try.

But this is the company that thinks people being mad at their abusers are in the wrong, and we need to forgive the too as of the last couple years.
It's all feel good from here on out. No negative emotions allowed. And no actually exploring these concepts and how it actually impacts real people.

If people think the lore is messed up, I sincerely wonder why the hell they've been playing this game for last couple decades. It's always been there, and not all of us who deal with these things want it brushed under the rug. We want it addressed, and we can make a joke about it too.

- - - Updated - - -

Thinking back on Legion... it was so much better than Dragonflight in nearly every regard.

- Campaign was more rooted in traditional Warcraft lore, while Dragonflight still fumbles and tries to re-invent stuff like Shadowlands did.
- Clear villain in the form of the Legion and Sargeras, the Nightmare, etc., while Dragonflight sort of retreads Cataclysm except we don't know what anyone's end goals are.
- Lots of returning hero characters from the past like Khadgar, Illidan, etc., while Dragonflight barely has any except for the Aspects.
- You had clear personal goals and storylines to keep you engaged with Artifacts, Order Halls, etc., while Dragonflight barely has any character-specific content.
- Zones felt better and more iconic, like Highmountain, while Dragonflight sort of stumbles. Azure Span is beautiful but Dragonriding removes that immensity and immersion.

The returning talent trees is one of the few features DF does better than Legion, I think.

10.2 really needs to deliver, both in terms of lore and narrative, and offering players engaging and meaningful content.

Agreed.

Legion felt like Warcraft, and had every single element that made Warcraft feel like Warcraft in it, even when it wasn't a focus.
Just want to add the faction stuff was fantastic too. wPvP was at it's prime. Warden towers were, to this day, some of the most fun I've had in this game. Defending and making groups to actually take out people camping towers. The NPC banter kept the faction conflict vibe alive, even though it wasn't really there in story past the start. Don't need much to keep such a crucial part of the IP going, and that was near perfection.

Love the dropboxes and gearing they've done for wPvP in Dragonflight, but nothing beats objectives, and the rage people had when they realized they actually had to fight in the PvP areas.

Dragonflight just feels like a typical fantasy MMORPG for the most part. Not Warcraft.
I've been thinking about it for a while, but there's just so much stuff that has nothing to do with our characters and factions, it all feels disconnected. I'd care far more about this expansion if the NPC races were the actual player ones, and the world building we got - which was frankly actually pretty good, just something I can't care about - was invested into things we actually play and get invested in.

Also, still don't like how as an Alliance main in particular, I'm supposed to just be okay with working with the Horde again and it's all good? Like, no? This feels completely off base for this game? There's barely any tension, and I'm not expecting conflict during a peacetime expansion, but it just feels like this game was made for literal children now and there's none of that fun edge or rivalry that made things fun in the past.

[Hitei]

The issue is just that they sort of kept much of the vague and cosmic storytelling from Shadowlands, since we never seem to be getting any resolutions or meaningful story progression, just more clues about the Titans, the Void, and so on. And they hyper-focused on dragons, which is like... one specific slice of old Warcraft lore, and one which was always rather one-dimensional as well. It works better to have an island populated 90% by the same species when it's a more interesting and culturally rich species, like the Pandaren. The dragons are literally just... dragons, with some extra flavour thrown in. They all sound and look mostly the same, and their individual storylines all tend to circle back to the same few topics:

It's a real weird take to claim Dragons are too samey in the same paragraph where you're praising Pandaren.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I'm actually concerned about this as well, and I'm a survivor of sexual assault myself.
The tone of the original quest was off, but it's an adult game and we're supposed to be adults and we can have dark senses of humour. "Don't tell Alex." got me a mild chuckle even though I thought the thing was screwed up, and frankly, I expect things to be screwed up in an IP based around war. I'm apparently not as pissed off as I "should be" over the quest's original iteration though, so I've flat out been told I condone the awful crap that's been done to me by people who seriously need to learn how people cope.

Oh, you've had the bitter drink of a self-righteous Twitter mob explaining to you how you and people in your situation ought to feel rather than acknowledging that you are a sample of that demographic? Emphatically sincere condolences. Always rather tough when you get on the wrong side of people who treat people with any kind of trauma as a medium to preserve their own comfort. It's an unfortunate trend, and privileged Twitterati pull no punches in telling anybody of any given group they nominally crusade for how they ought to feel, and disowning or dismissing them when they dare to deviate from their expectations. Though I'm certain a number were well and truly offended, I wouldn't be surprised if the vanguard was from people who wanted to use the suffering of others to prop up their own comfort. It's a tragically common problem these days, and I'm lucky to be in the privileged position where I only have reason to be frustrated by it. Given what you've evidently gone through, I couldn't hope to understand just how bitter I would have to guess it feels for you or people in the same circumstances.

I confess I was actually rather uncomfortable with it myself on account of Blizzard's history, but I really took it more as a nasty fumble than anything really malicious. As I said earlier, I think it's probably just that some poor intern cobbled the quest together on whatever union-free, 15-hour weekend workdays they probably have at Blizzard. The only reason it struck me as off was because it's rather difficult not to have the conduct of the executives at Blizzard—the same executives, of course, who may throw the poor bastard under the bus despite it being their own lot that enabled the abuse—come to mind.

But this is the company that thinks people being mad at their abusers are in the wrong, and we need to forgive the too as of the last couple years.
It's all feel good from here on out. No negative emotions allowed. And no actually exploring these concepts and how it actually impacts real people.

Isn't that a striking parallel? Blizzard wants to project goodfeels at the expense of profundity, and their audience wants to be comfortable regardless of the feelings of the people they speak for.

I confess it's nice to have the opinion of somebody who's actually gone through this sort of thing, because I'm not in a position to know how they feel otherwise. There's a lot of lobbing around opinions projected onto the population in question and not quite listening to their own views on the matter.

We want it addressed, and we can make a joke about it too.

This is quite the indication of a strong personal character on your part. As for the message proper, can't take it as indicative of the population as a whole, but it's very good to have a much stronger sample to help frame this problem from the perspective of people whose opinions are most valuable on the matter. Perhaps I and all the rest of us could do a little better to listen to how people feel instead of ascribing them an opinion ahead of time.

[Skildar]

I was rather concerned that Blizzard was going to walk away with the wrong understanding of this, willfully or unintentionally; I'm unsure what to make of this on that front. Whether they have the best of intentions or they really are just looking for a craven out from Twitter criticism, I was at least initially worried that they would just boil it down to "we acknowledged rape exists" instead of "we raped people in real life" and refuse entirely to touch dark plotlines with a 50-foot pole for the foreseeable future. Yet, they are at least acknowledging the event, yet only in a very roundabout and indirect way that may not substitute sufficiently unless you know the history behind the quest's alteration. I am hoping they'll touch a bit more on the bit about Alexstrasza's darker history and give her some character rather than throw this out there and never acknowledge it again. It also now fails to accomplish the original intention since it involves you being the great big hero who does a perfectly morally-good thing in your undertaking to preserve the timeways instead of showing how simultaneously horrible and banal the Bronze Dragonflight's charge is. I'm also very happy that they actually kept any variant of the quest to begin with, since that does at least mean that they're leaning further away from what I'm concerned about than I initially though they would, and that they may actually touch on Alexstrasza's history going forward.

It's a weird decision because they do have part of their player base that is looking for gritty scenari such as the former version of the quest. And I'm quite convinced that both dailies and sidequests are the place to tell such stories.

As an aside, I'm also somewhat concerned about the professional security of the employee that wrote or designed the original quest. I could see them getting the sack to satiate Twitter's misguided sense of mob justice even if they were only some intern who didn't even think through the implications and just scrolled over Alexstrasza's Wowpedia page to get a general idea of some tragic event in her past they could use. I could see Blizzard's executives throwing the poor moron to the wolves, even though the actual moral fault lies with the executives as the people who coerced the victims and destroyed unions to begin with.

I'm not sure we should speculate on what blizzard management practices are like or what they could do, etc.
What they should do though is learn from this by encouraging their employees that like this kind of story telling to explore them by providing them opportunities to do so.

[RahEndymion]

I don't think it's weird at all.

Dragons are a very generic fantasy species. In WoW, they're one of the few major species not based on any distinct real life culture, which makes them just dragons with some flavour added. At most, you could say each flight and its members draw inspiration from their Aspect. So most Red dragons feel a bit like an extension of Alex's personality, most Black dragons feel like an extension of Neltharion, etc.

The Pandaren however, are basically a mix of cultures from real life South East Asia, so you can really feel that rich culture all over Pandaria. The music, the cuisine, the farming, the art, the folklore, the environment, their values, and so on.

Bold here is, to me, precisely what is absent from Dragonflight and I think that remains true with all of the races and factions except the Tuskarr. Unfortunately, the Tuskarr play such a minor role in a few very secluded sections of two zones that it's effectively an absence itself.

There seems to be such a glaring absence of culture, history and discovery in Dragonflight which is quite an achievement considering it's supposed to be the long lost homeland of the dragon civilization. It's weird. In both Legion and BFA, despite the issues with the later, the world actually felt like a viable civilization. Dragonflight feels a lot more like Shadowlands than it does either. It's unfortunate and it does really feel like a waste of potential.

Here's hoping Avaloren / 11.0 and whatever it may be actually does some work to build factions and civilizations and return some of the exploratory feeling to the game.

[Schwert]

Oh, you've had the bitter drink of a self-righteous Twitter mob explaining to you how you and people in your situation ought to feel rather than acknowledging that you are a sample of that demographic? Emphatically sincere condolences. Always rather tough when you get on the wrong side of people who treat people with any kind of trauma as a medium to preserve their own comfort. It's an unfortunate trend, and privileged Twitterati pull no punches in telling anybody of any given group they nominally crusade for how they ought to feel, and disowning or dismissing them when they dare to deviate from their expectations. Though I'm certain a number were well and truly offended, I wouldn't be surprised if the vanguard was from people who wanted to use the suffering of others to prop up their own comfort. It's a tragically common problem these days, and I'm lucky to be in the privileged position where I only have reason to be frustrated by it. Given what you've evidently gone through, I couldn't hope to understand just how bitter I would have to guess it feels for you or people in the same circumstances.

I confess I was actually rather uncomfortable with it myself on account of Blizzard's history, but I really took it more as a nasty fumble than anything really malicious. As I said earlier, I think it's probably just that some poor intern cobbled the quest together on whatever union-free, 15-hour weekend workdays they probably have at Blizzard. The only reason it struck me as off was because it's rather difficult not to have the conduct of the executives at Blizzard—the same executives, of course, who may throw the poor bastard under the bus despite it being their own lot that enabled the abuse—come to mind.



Isn't that a striking parallel? Blizzard wants to project goodfeels at the expense of profundity, and their audience wants to be comfortable regardless of the feelings of the people they speak for.

I confess it's nice to have the opinion of somebody who's actually gone through this sort of thing, because I'm not in a position to know how they feel otherwise. There's a lot of lobbing around opinions projected onto the population in question and not quite listening to their own views on the matter.



This is quite the indication of a strong personal character on your part. As for the message proper, can't take it as indicative of the population as a whole, but it's very good to have a much stronger sample to help frame this problem from the perspective of people whose opinions are most valuable on the matter. Perhaps I and all the rest of us could do a little better to listen to how people feel instead of ascribing them an opinion ahead of time.

I've gone through a lot worse than just "explaining" over the last while to the point I've begun to question a lot of things as of late and stepped away from certain social media platforms as a whole, and no longer check my DMs anywhere. Not really a discussion for here though.

There are going to be people who have gone through what I have that do not want these topics touched at all, and are seriously offended by dark humor being a comfort - been there, done that, and the harassment it brings is actually beyond ridiculous as of late, but the middleground does exist - which the changes feel appropriate for.
I just wish people would stop being extreme about adults enjoying adult concepts in media that are for adults. This is a space that people should be able to explore these topics in, and when I don't want to be surrounded by war and the grit, I literally have two other MMOs I pick up to get away from it.

Just seriously hoping they knock this off in the future.
Forgiveness has never helped me as a survivor. It never will. Nor does ignoring it. And I'm just glad it's not being ignored and brushed aside quickly like the Dragonmaw were before this.

[Santandame]

Bold here is, to me, precisely what is absent from Dragonflight and I think that remains true with all of the races and factions except the Tuskarr. Unfortunately, the Tuskarr play such a minor role in a few very secluded sections of two zones that it's effectively an absence itself.

There seems to be such a glaring absence of culture, history and discovery in Dragonflight which is quite an achievement considering it's supposed to be the long lost homeland of the dragon civilization. It's weird. In both Legion and BFA, despite the issues with the later, the world actually felt like a viable civilization. Dragonflight feels a lot more like Shadowlands than it does either. It's unfortunate and it does really feel like a waste of potential.

Here's hoping Avaloren / 11.0 and whatever it may be actually does some work to build factions and civilizations and return some of the exploratory feeling to the game.

Agreed. Valdrakken doesn’t feel like the capital of dragonkind. The city itself looks cool but it feels devoid of any culture or life. It’s certainly a step up from Oribos, that’s for sure. But it doesn’t compare to Boralus, Dawn’s Blossom or Halfhill as a living, breathing place where people make it their home and go about their business.

[Hitei]

I don't think it's weird at all.

Dragons are a very generic fantasy species. In WoW, they're one of the few major species not based on any distinct real life culture, which makes them just dragons with some flavour added. At most, you could say each flight and its members draw inspiration from their Aspect. So most Red dragons feel a bit like an extension of Alex's personality, most Black dragons feel like an extension of Neltharion, etc.

The Pandaren however, are basically a mix of cultures from real life South East Asia, so you can really feel that rich culture all over Pandaria. The music, the cuisine, the farming, the art, the folklore, the environment, their values, and so on.

What? The Pandaren are a generic Asian-inspired fantasy species. It's bundled orientalism. They have vaguely Chinese art and vaguely Chinese architecture and vaguely Chinese music and folklore, and vaguely Chinese, faux orthography. They speak in vaguely Confucianist proverbs, use vaguely Chinese diminuitives, honorifics and names and live in a place with a bunch of vaguely Chinese environmental snapshots. Their enemies are vaguely Mongol steppe tribes on the other side of a great wall.

It's only a mix of cultures in the exact same way nearly every generic depiction of "Asian fantasy" the west has produced (that isn't about Samurai) is a standardized mixture of largely Chinese culture with odds and ends thrown in.

Their values are completely lacking in variety, because they barely have any characterization outside of their stereotypes. They exist in basically two forms: Jovial, good-natured, sort of silly Chen Pandaren dealing with problems, and stern and stoic, vigilant, wise monk Pandaren dealing with problems.

There is more variety in visuals, culture, personality, tone and voice in just the Aspects, Chromie and the three heirs of Neltharion than there is in the entirety of the Pandaren race. I don't understand how you think most red dragons are just Alex, but then are unironically praising a race whose named NPCs are 70% reskinned Chen. And whose singular storyline, across the entire race, is basically "we had a good, steady life but now it's disturbed".

They are an entire race that does not vary from the singular identity of "Fantasy Chinese". Living on a continent where, Zandalari aside, every other race, zone, musical track, beast, weapon and armor appearance, historical lore point, and mount is also just "Fantasy Chinese". MoP has some of the least variety of any expansion the game has ever released. It's distinct from the other expansions, sure, but internally homogenized to an insane degree, because it is literally nothing but fantasy China. It's entire gimmick is that it ISN'T a mix, or diverse, or varied. It's just a singularly orientalized wow expansion.

[Jekyll]

What? The Pandaren are a generic Asian-inspired fantasy species. It's bundled orientalism. They have vaguely Chinese art and vaguely Chinese architecture and vaguely Chinese music and folklore, and vaguely Chinese, faux orthography. They speak in vaguely Confucianist proverbs, use vaguely Chinese diminuitives, honorifics and names and live in a place with a bunch of vaguely Chinese environmental snapshots. Their enemies are vaguely Mongol steppe tribes on the other side of a great wall.

It's only a mix of cultures in the exact same way nearly every generic depiction of "Asian fantasy" the west has produced (that isn't about Samurai) is a standardized mixture of largely Chinese culture with odds and ends thrown in.

Their values are completely lacking in variety, because they barely have any characterization outside of their stereotypes. They exist in basically two forms: Jovial, good-natured, sort of silly Chen Pandaren dealing with problems, and stern and stoic, vigilant, wise monk Pandaren dealing with problems.

There is more variety in visuals, culture, personality, tone and voice in just the Aspects, Chromie and the three heirs of Neltharion than there is in the entirety of the Pandaren race. I don't understand how you think most red dragons are just Alex, but then are unironically praising a race whose named NPCs are 70% reskinned Chen. And whose singular storyline, across the entire race, is basically "we had a good, steady life but now it's disturbed".

They are an entire race that does not vary from the singular identity of "Fantasy Chinese". Living on a continent where, Zandalari aside, every other race, zone, musical track, beast, weapon and armor appearance, historical lore point, and mount is also just "Fantasy Chinese". MoP has some of the least variety of any expansion the game has ever released. It's distinct from the other expansions, sure, but internally homogenized to an insane degree, because it is literally nothing but fantasy China. It's entire gimmick is that it ISN'T a mix, or diverse, or varied. It's just a singularly orientalized wow expansion.

As an Asian, I love MoP, and pls don't get offended on behalf of us and pls don't use the word orientalism. Your bigotry and racism is showing Hope that helps.

[Hitei]

As an Asian, I love MoP, and pls don't get offended on behalf of us and pls don't use the word orientalism. Your bigotry and racism is showing Hope that helps.

You're projecting. Nowhere did I say I was offended, nor do I care if you are. Orientalism accurately describes exactly what MoP was.

[Schwert]

MoP actually taking a whole expansion to focus on a singular culture, and the variety of aesthetics within it, was actually a good thing, and it had a ton of variety within it's theme, which is what an expansion - and all things related to an in game race - should be. You're telling me Throne of Thunder looks exactly the same as the Jade Forest? Kun Lai Summit has the same aesthetic as the Heart of Fear?

It's a fantasy game. Of course it's not going to be an accurate representation of a real world culture. None of them ever will be. And don't look at what Koren and Chinese MMOS do with western culture. It's literally the same thing. Nobody's actually upset by it. The exchange is lovely and fun.

Dragonflight has just been lava and rocks in regards to it's raids, and the dragons don't actually delve into the world building regarding their culture. There's a bit of it, but it's not anything related to the actual player races, so I'm supposed to care, why? There's barely any hubs to hang out, it doesn't feel like a lived in world outside a couple spots.
Pandaria felt like an actual place, and it's characters felt like ones my own could relate to.

I want that level of world building back.
And I want it to be for something I can actually invest into, not NPC Walruses and boring Centaur, and dragons that have nothing to do with the races and factions I play.

[Jekyll]

You're projecting. Nowhere did I say I was offended, nor do I care if you are. Orientalism accurately describes exactly what MoP was.

Yikes. Imagine calling the Asian guy calling you out for hating Asian inspired in-game as projection. YIKES. TY for whitesplainig it to me lol

[Hitei]

I mean, I'm not a huge fan of "Asia" normally, if that makes any sense. I'm a generic European who loves LotR-esque fantasy which is losely based on Europeran medieval history and folklore. I don't really watch Anime, play JRPGs, or eat a lot of Asian food. I've never been to Asia. That's not to say I dislike Asia or any cultures found therein, it's just not something I've had a lot of exposure to growing up, and hence I've never really developed any particular feelings towards it. Beyond the normal "Oh, how exotic and mysterious" sensation many people might feel when thinking of Asia as depicted in films and books.

What I'm trying to say is, I couldn't really tell if the Pandaren is a silly depiction of "real Asian culture" or not. It might be? All I know is that wandering around Pandaria and taking it all in, feels amazing. It feels like I'm there. That's enough for me.

By the way, I would argue all real life-inspired cultures in WoW are sort of "cartoonified", if that makes any sense. The Vrykul are sort of based on Scandinavia, and they definitely fit the description of "here's an American's view of Vikings, and it couldn't be further from the historical truth". But that doesn't really matter in the end. Because exploring that stylised version of Scandinavia known as Northrend is still an absolute delight. We can all sort of recognize what it is, because we all have a general idea of the Vikings from films and books, and other media, and the place is so well made it's just feels real and natural.

That's fine. You like what it did. I'm not arguing you shouldn't have. I'm just saying that there isn't anything deep or masterful about the cultural, visual or tonal variety of Pandaren, such that it makes sense to laud their depiction when complaining about the lack of variety amidst dragons. Dragons are significantly more varied even with their lack of specific cultural than Pandaren, who are just wholly copy pasted from that singular fantastical culture depiction in every capacity.

The differences between Kalec, Chromie and the lesser bronzes, Alex, Majordomo Selistra, Wrathion, Ebonhorn and Merithra's group are larger than the variation across the whole Padaren race. So it's weird to take issue with them all "sounding and looking alike" when that is a fundamental problem with the Pandaren depiction; that they all lean so heavily into that one cartoony cultural depiction.

Yikes. Imagine calling the Asian guy calling you out for hating Asian inspired in-game as projection. YIKES. TY for whitesplainig it to me lol

Imagine having no actual argument to provide, assuming someone is white, and having such poor reading comprehension you think that the issue here had anything to do with the content being Asian specifically rather than being a shallow copy paste of generic culture adaptation.

Yes, you getting offended because you saw the words "Asian" and "Orientalism" being used and then projecting that offense taken onto me as if I were the offended one is indeed: projection.

[Jekyll]

That's fine. You like what it did. I'm not arguing you shouldn't have. I'm just saying that there isn't anything deep or masterful about the cultural, visual or tonal variety of Pandaren, such that it makes sense to laud their depiction when complaining about the lack of variety amidst dragons. Dragons are significantly more varied even with their lack of specific cultural than Pandaren, who are just wholly copy pasted from that singular fantastical culture depiction in every capacity.

The differences between Kalec, Chromie and the lesser bronzes, Alex, Majordomo Selistra, Wrathion, Ebonhorn and Merithra's group are larger than the variation across the whole Padaren race. So it's weird to take issue with them all "sounding and looking alike" when that is a fundamental problem with the Pandaren depiction; that they all lean so heavily into that one cartoony cultural depiction.



Imagine having no actual argument to provide, assuming someone is white, and having such poor reading comprehension you think that the issue here had anything to do with the content being Asian specifically rather than being a shallow copy paste of generic culture adaptation.

Yes, you getting offended because you saw the words "Asian" and "Orientalism" being used and then projecting that offense taken onto me as if I were the offended one is indeed: projection.

Please calm down and stop being emotional and get back to the topic. Sure, we get it, you hate Asian-inspired cultures in-game. I meet with people like you like during MoP, It's ok, I understand, you don't like WoW to pander to people like me and just stick to its 'medieval' theme which somehow involves Arabic space goat. Welp, I'm sorry you feel offended to be called out for your racist view but I think we should get back to the topic at hand and pls stop explaining asian stuff to asian people like lol.

[Jekyll]

By the way, any news about Archaeology yet?

I was just watching this ambient video of Zuldazar on YouTube, and man what a zone. The density of the zone paired with the immersive weather effects and stellar music just knocks it out of the park, easily among my top 10 zones.

But that got me thinking, why the hell do we still not have any game features that send you to a few different legacy zones every day? Just something simple, like collect an old kind of herb or take a photo of a waterfall or something.

It would make soooooo much sense if the Dragonscale Expedition, along with all its quirky World Quest content, basically replaced Archaeology. It could simply send you to different old continents every day to do little fun chores, and you get some type of "Explorer Renown" or something. Some of the activities might involve treasure seeking and let you unearth ancient treasure, just like Archaeology. Some of it might give you additional lore which is entered into a book. Others may simply be for the fun of exploration.

I want archeology to be the 'puzzle' profession; by solving digging and solving puzzles, you gain w/e skills and w/e we are trying to dig.

[Raetary]

Please explain the Incarnates' grand plan to me, and where you learned it from?

They hate the titans, view them as tyrants who upheaved the natural order of things and are trying to dismantle their hold onto Azeroth.
They want the planet to return to a primordial state ruled by the elementals.

That's made abundantly clear in every single instance of us dealing with primalist forces.
From every bit of quest text, from every bit of dialogue they yell at you, from the literal potential future timeline that exists of them winning which we visit like 15 times a week.

[huth]

They hate the titans, view them as tyrants who upheaved the natural order of things and are trying to dismantle their hold onto Azeroth.
They want the planet to return to a primordial state ruled by the elementals.

That's made abundantly clear in every single instance of us dealing with primalist forces.
From every bit of quest text, from every bit of dialogue they yell at you, from the literal potential future timeline that exists of them winning which we visit like 15 times a week.

Yeah, it's not like they're making any effort to be discreet about it. If you don't know what they want by now, the fault is entirely on you for not paying attention.

[Santandame]

Dragonflight also has Gnolls, Tuskarr, Titan stuff, the Emerald Dream and the Titan influenced stuff of it, etc. Hell, we also got some unique spiritual quests also which bring back the older roots of WoW. And this isn't even all the examples lol.

And the Incarnates want to bring Azeroth back to its Elemental Freedom? Without Old God, or Titan influence. This is quite literally explored in game by like...everyone ever lol.

Also, you do realize you can just use a Ground Mount then, yeah? Or If you want to wait a lil bit longer, you'll get regular flight back later on in the expac.

That is pure assumption on your part. None of us know the end goal of the Incarnates, and each Incarnate seems to have different motivations - they aren’t on the same page.

Iridikron clearly has his own machinations going on, with an entirely different motive to the other Incarnates who he is clearly using and manipulating. We have no idea what he wants to achieve but the popular consensus amongst those discussing lore theories is that he is on a mission to consume the power of each of the cosmic forces.

Raszageth seemed to be operating purely on revenge due to her being imprisoned for all that time. We know at some point, that she and the other Incarnates opposed the rule of the titans during the War of the Scaleborn. However, after her escape from her prison on the Forbidden Reach, she seemed to be operating on freeing her fellow Incarnates whilst also seeking revenge on the Aspects.

Vyranoth seems to be the more “rational” of the Incarnates. It has been confirmed that at one point she opposed the War of the Scaleborn and sought to achieve a peaceful resolution. Though we know now that she wants revenge on the Aspects but still seems to be grappling with the loss of Razsageth but also seemingly her lost friendship with Alexstrasza.

Fyrakk is the wild card. Even before his absorption of shadowflame, he seemed extremely chaotic. It seems he just relishes in causing chaos and destruction wherever he goes.

No where in game has it been explained what the Incarnates are currently trying to achieve as of now. You can’t just pass up your speculation as fact and say that it exists in game - it doesn’t.

The only thing we’re certain of is that Iridikron is using the other Incarnates for his own nefarious ends.

[Sondrelk]

By the way, any news about Archaeology yet?

I was just watching this ambient video of Zuldazar on YouTube, and man what a zone. The density of the zone paired with the immersive weather effects and stellar music just knocks it out of the park, easily among my top 10 zones.

But that got me thinking, why the hell do we still not have any game features that send you to a few different legacy zones every day? Just something simple, like collect an old kind of herb or take a photo of a waterfall or something.

It would make soooooo much sense if the Dragonscale Expedition, along with all its quirky World Quest content, basically replaced Archaeology. It could simply send you to different old continents every day to do little fun chores, and you get some type of "Explorer Renown" or something. Some of the activities might involve treasure seeking and let you unearth ancient treasure, just like Archaeology. Some of it might give you additional lore which is entered into a book. Others may simply be for the fun of exploration.

Well for one we currently don't have Dragonriding in old zones, and depending on the expansion it's not even guaranteed that everyone even can fly.
Even assuming we had that though you would still potentially have to fly across the entirety of an old continent for just a handful of zones.

My guess would be that the developers assume (quite rightly in my opinion) that there is no point in sending players back to old zones repeatedly unless it's for a large amount of content, and its centered on a single zone.
So we would need a framework that says that say, Tirisfal is designated the endgame zone for a set period, and that all content of that type I'll take place in that zone, rotating to new ones at set intervals.

It sounds like this is a concept that is being considered for the improvements to Timewalking, which I think would be the best way to go about it.

[Santandame]

I'd argue the 10.1 launch trailer is extremely vague, especially if you're not keeping up with discussions online.

The Incarnates arrive somewhere (again) and mumble a bunch of obscurities. "Absorb the power, awaken the Elders, we've got shit to do elsewhere". Like, okay, we're about 1/3 through the expansion and we still don't know more about their ultimate goal other than they're doing some stuff here, doing some stuff over there, and then they'll do some more stuff later.

We didn't get closure by killing Razageth, because she basically just got replaced by even more Incarnates we knew we had to do something about (and we failed yet again), and then we didn't get closure by killing Sarkareth, because he just mumbled something about the Void and scene. To the point where people started imagining seeing eyes in the background and what not, just to find some meaning and story progression there.

Compare that to 7.0 when we, IIRC, killed Xavius and effectively ended the Emerald Nightmare, or 7.2 when we ended Kil'Jaeden and prevented the Legion from destroying Dalaran, and Argus appeared in the sky to reveal our next destination, etc. Seriously, go to YouTube right now and watch the trailers from that expansion. They're so story rich, and everything is easy to understand and follow along to.

Not only that, but also the fact that it has been remarked that Iridikron fully embraced the war of dragonkind, rather than fully supporting the intitial stance the Incarnates took. In the process making dark bargains with god knows who as it hasn’t been revealed, receiving god knows what as it hasn’t been revealed, all with the aim of god knows what as this also hasn’t been revealed.

The only thing that’s been made clear to us about the Incarnates end goal is that each clearly has different motivations from the other, with Iridikron very clearly using the others for his own end goal.

@Cosmicpreds can respond with his aggressive, defensive replies all he wants. It doesn’t change the fact that nothing has been confirmed in game about the Incarnates end goal. We know that they initially opposed titan rule 20,000 years ago (and even then it’s implied pretty clearly that Iridikron had his own ulterior motivations for embracing the war of dragonkind). It’s pretty clear that each Incarnate is operating on completely different wavelengths from the other.

We can make educated guesses on where Iridikron’s story is leading, as well as potential ideas on Vyranoth’s future alignment. Yet none of that changes so far, we’ve received very little, if any resolution to the Incarnate storyline, with no true representation of where it is heading.