The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

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I don't think this has been discussed here yet: how do we feel about the reveal that (Kirin Tor Quest Spoilers)the surviving Mega Mages (Jaina, Kalec, Khadgar, Aethas) have no plans to rebuild Dalaran, citing it as too dangerous of a target for mages, and instead want to disband the Council of Six and reformat the Kirin Tor into something new?

I understand people are gonna be mad about no Dalaran 2 (unless these plans change) but I think it's a genuinely surprising plot that puts mages into an interesting situation in Warcraft instead of "there's a mage city, the mages go there and hang out". I think this may be a plot point they created so that the mages spread out across Azeroth instead of being concentrated in Dalaran. Maybe we get Theramore AND Scholomance revamped into new mage cities? Something interesting done with Dalaran Crater instead of just "Dalaran goes back there lol"?

Also Exodar 2 can now be the exclusive flying city lol

Overall I think this is a net positive for the lore and world even if it is a little unsatisfying in the interim.

It's a late and expedient correction; Dalaran should have remained in the setting, but it also should have never become the "catch-all mage city" to begin with. It should've specifically been the capital of human mages. While it's a shame to lose an iconic and beloved part of the lore, it allows mages of non-human races to have their unique identities back, which was sorely needed.

[Joshuaj]

I don't think this has been discussed here yet: how do we feel about the reveal that (Kirin Tor Quest Spoilers)the surviving Mega Mages (Jaina, Kalec, Khadgar, Aethas) have no plans to rebuild Dalaran, citing it as too dangerous of a target for mages, and instead want to disband the Council of Six and reformat the Kirin Tor into something new?

I understand people are gonna be mad about no Dalaran 2 (unless these plans change) but I think it's a genuinely surprising plot that puts mages into an interesting situation in Warcraft instead of "there's a mage city, the mages go there and hang out". I think this may be a plot point they created so that the mages spread out across Azeroth instead of being concentrated in Dalaran. Maybe we get Theramore AND Scholomance revamped into new mage cities? Something interesting done with Dalaran Crater instead of just "Dalaran goes back there lol"? It also leaves The Last Titan's hub a mystery and makes it more interesting than just Wrath 2 with a Titan coat of paint

Also Exodar 2 can now be the exclusive flying city lol

Overall I think this is a net positive for the lore and world even if it is a little unsatisfying in the interim.

While this does annoy me somewhat (as WoW has no floating city anymore...pain), the idea of us potentially bringing back Scholomance could be cool.

[Hitei]

I have mixed feelings. The Kirin Tor was always playing at being neutral and had a rather obvious preference for the Alliance. Furthermore the Purge of Dalaran remains a complete mess that never led to any real resolution. Vereesa is complicit in overseeing the torture and murder of innocent civilians yet never paid for that. I suspect that's largely why the writers have gone in such a direction to avoid ever having to properly address it.

Lol, yeah. I'm sure it's that they are worried about Vereesa, a relatively minor character, having done moderately questionable shit (like dozens of other more important characters have)... and definitely not just that they realized a fourth version of Dalaran and second "Dalaran is being rebuilt" was repetitive and unnecessary as all hell.

[Hitei]

It's been a pretty controversial aspect in the story for quite some time to the point where it is still a heated point of discussion over on both the American and European story boards on the official forum. Nor did I claim it was the only reason for such a decision.

I think we can very confidently say it was not a factor at all. Starting a massive war didn't stop them from putting Wrathion front and center of plot stuff in DF. Geya'rah being an outspoken pro-Syvlanas sycophant right up until she abandoned the Horde hasn't stopped them from continuing to do Mag'har stuff as major story beats with her in charge or stopped her new role as Thrall's "sister"--without even getting into the fact that a sizable number of the mag'har are clans who actively went along with the Iron Horde. Half the Forsaken command structure has been previously complicit or directly taken part in warcrimes and mass killings against civilians, yet they are still working at rebuilding territory. Illidan's entire retinue of civilian attackers were dismissed to make him a prophetic hero and the Illidari made champions. Maiev's casual murder of highborne civilians was passed over to keep her around and head of the Wardens when they were brought back to the forefront.

I promise you, the writers do not care about a handful of forum posters who, in their desperation to prove "both factions are the bad guys!", are unable to let go of an extremely minor event. They keep controversial figures and places in the limelight all the time, they have no problem bringing outright villainous characters to a neutral or even friendly level. The Purge is nothing. They're not bringing Dalaran back because it's already been brought back multiples times and it's time to move on rather than creating a whole new Exodar situation when they are still working their way out of the first one nearly 20 years later.

[Foolicious]

"Beware the eyes of green" and all that. Orwenya has green eyes; is Gallywix's eyes also green?

Freya is also mentioned in one of those slates on the isle of dorne to have green eyes. Weird thing to point out for no reason. Gallywix has more yellow/brown ones, but maybe he gets a new model for the raid that changes them.

[Enrif]

On the Dalaran stuff

i think it is bad to not bring it back. It is one city less in the world, and thus makes the world smaller. To remind how many cities were lost over the years in Warcraft canon that were not rebuild: Darnassus, Theramore, Stratholme, Southshore, Andorhal, Grim Batol, Nethergarde Keep, Auberdine, Duskhaven, Taurajo and now also Dalaran

Destroying only for destroying's sake and shock value is not good storytelling in the long run. There is a good reason why people are mayorly pissed at Teldrassils destruction and are very much unhappy with Bel'amath as a replacement. A full fledged city, replaced with some huts. It's would be like, if after Siege of Orgrimmar the whole city would have been flattened and the new horde capital would be the Valley of Trials with two more tents.

Not rebuilding Dalaran or at least fixing the dalaran crater and making it a city would be such a disservice to the world these characters live in.

Or we one day end up with only Stormwind and Orgrimmar as the only cities left in the world.

[Nibelheimy]

Freya is also mentioned in one of those slates on the isle of dorne to have green eyes. Weird thing to point out for no reason. Gallywix has more yellow/brown ones, but maybe he gets a new model for the raid that changes them.

Freya would make sense, the supposed treachery is her realising the roots of Elun'ahir survived and not telling Aman'thul. She would also be suitably described as a 'Vassal of Life'.

[Eldryth]

I don't think this has been discussed here yet: how do we feel about the reveal that (Kirin Tor Quest Spoilers)the surviving Mega Mages (Jaina, Kalec, Khadgar, Aethas) have no plans to rebuild Dalaran, citing it as too dangerous of a target for mages, and instead want to disband the Council of Six and reformat the Kirin Tor into something new?

I understand people are gonna be mad about no Dalaran 2 (unless these plans change) but I think it's a genuinely surprising plot that puts mages into an interesting situation in Warcraft instead of "there's a mage city, the mages go there and hang out". I think this may be a plot point they created so that the mages spread out across Azeroth instead of being concentrated in Dalaran. Maybe we get Theramore AND Scholomance revamped into new mage cities? Something interesting done with Dalaran Crater instead of just "Dalaran goes back there lol"? It also leaves The Last Titan's hub a mystery and makes it more interesting than just Wrath 2 with a Titan coat of paint

Also Exodar 2 can now be the exclusive flying city lol

Overall I think this is a net positive for the lore and world even if it is a little unsatisfying in the interim.

I'm waiting to see how the story continues (and hoping the Kirin Tor actually stay in focus) to see if they a good storyline planned to make this worth it, but so far the in-universe justification is incredibly weak.

They treat it as the Kirin Tor learning from their past mistakes, but didn't really manage to make any of it actually seem like a mistake. Dalaran's interventions were critical for saving Azeroth several times over, and they have always seemed to do a great job as the world's guardians. We wouldn't have stood a chance in Legion or Wrath without them. So what exactly do they think they need to fix with this big change? This doesn't address anything to do with their actual mistakes, like falling for Xal'atath's trap, turning a blind eye to the Sunreavers' actions in MoP until it was too late, or letting the Silver Covenant go way too far in their retaliation. If anything they need to increase oversight, not abandon what organization they do have.

[Nymrohd]

I'm waiting to see how the story continues (and hoping the Kirin Tor actually stay in focus) to see if they a good storyline planned to make this worth it, but so far the in-universe justification is incredibly weak.

They treat it as the Kirin Tor learning from their past mistakes, but didn't really manage to make any of it actually seem like a mistake. Dalaran's interventions were critical for saving Azeroth several times over, and they have always seemed to do a great job as the world's guardians. We wouldn't have stood a chance in Legion or Wrath without them. So what exactly do they think they need to fix with this big change? This doesn't address anything to do with their actual mistakes, like falling for Xal'atath's trap, turning a blind eye to the Sunreavers' actions in MoP until it was too late, or letting the Silver Covenant go way too far in their retaliation. If anything they need to [I]increase[/I] oversight, not abandon what organization they do have.

Also it ignores all the civilians who survived the crash or were rescued and are now homeless. Their government just gave up on them, go be refugees.

[Jaggler]

Also it ignores all the civilians who survived the crash or were rescued and are now homeless. Their government just gave up on them, go be refugees.

TBH They would be homeless for the forseeable future anyways. I am sure their factions and race's would gladly provide a space for skilled mages.

While i am sad to see Dalaran gone, I think it is ultimately not a bad move. The city has become a powerhouse to a ridiculous extent. And it kinda makes sense, that you maybe do not want to rebuild a city which has been nuked to oblivion for the second time in like 20 years considering the insane amount of deaths it caused.

I'm interested in how a decentralized Kirin Tor would work out.

[Golden Yak]

I wonder how dungeons and raids are going to be handled in TLT.

This isn't like Quel'thalas where it's only a couple of instances (Sunwell, Terrace, ZA)

Northrend has an entire expansion's worth of content. Much of it Scourge focused. Are we going to get radically altered and re-imagined dungeons, or a completely new crop?

Utgarde Keep/Pinnacle - Huge Scourge presence, would need massive overhaul
Nexus/Oculus - Blue dragons are on our side currently, irrelevant now?
Azjol-Nerub/Ahn'Kahet - Scourge/Old God presence, needs overhaul, maybe turned into an underground zone (the true Spider Kingdom at last?)
Drak'tharon Keep/Gundrak - Frost troll/Scourge presence, irrelevant now?
Halls of Stone/Lightning - Titan presence, but major relevance to the Yogg-Saron storyline, would need an overhaul
Violet Hold - Gone...

To say nothing of all the Icecrown dungeons, all the raids...

Just not feasible to update that stuff. We're gonna need a whole new slew of stuff. Where is it going to go?

[Nibelheimy]

I wonder how dungeons and raids are going to be handled in TLT.

This isn't like Quel'thalas where it's only a couple of instances (Sunwell, Terrace, ZA)

Northrend has an entire expansion's worth of content. Much of it Scourge focused. Are we going to get radically altered and re-imagined dungeons, or a completely new crop?

Utgarde Keep/Pinnacle - Huge Scourge presence, would need massive overhaul
Nexus/Oculus - Blue dragons are on our side currently, irrelevant now?
Azjol-Nerub/Ahn'Kahet - Scourge/Old God presence, needs overhaul, maybe turned into an underground zone (the true Spider Kingdom at last?)
Drak'tharon Keep/Gundrak - Frost troll/Scourge presence, irrelevant now?
Halls of Stone/Lightning - Titan presence, but major relevance to the Yogg-Saron storyline, would need an overhaul
Violet Hold - Gone...

To say nothing of all the Icecrown dungeons, all the raids...

Just not feasible to update that stuff. We're gonna need a whole new slew of stuff. Where is it going to go?

I've been wondering this more and more..

Silvermoon and Quelthalas being updated to an expansion size zone makes sense in this regard, but Northrend is already massive. I don't see them cutting zones out so to speak, but I don't know how they are going to bring relevant storylines into the fold with all the area space we're aware of.

I don't see them doing an underground expansion again, but I do think its possible we could be going underneath Northrend instead. Azj'ol Nerub and lots of Manifold zones could be possible. There is a very small part of me that thinks the expansion intro alone will be in Northrend, and we lift a section of Ulduar into the air akin to Odin as a home city after the intro cinematic, in order to go somewhere else to find a possible "Last Titan" elsewhere in the world. However I do think that is very very unlikely. I doubt they'd drop returning to Northrend and then not truly return.

[Jaggler]

I wonder how dungeons and raids are going to be handled in TLT.

This isn't like Quel'thalas where it's only a couple of instances (Sunwell, Terrace, ZA)

Northrend has an entire expansion's worth of content. Much of it Scourge focused. Are we going to get radically altered and re-imagined dungeons, or a completely new crop?

Utgarde Keep/Pinnacle - Huge Scourge presence, would need massive overhaul
Nexus/Oculus - Blue dragons are on our side currently, irrelevant now?
Azjol-Nerub/Ahn'Kahet - Scourge/Old God presence, needs overhaul, maybe turned into an underground zone (the true Spider Kingdom at last?)
Drak'tharon Keep/Gundrak - Frost troll/Scourge presence, irrelevant now?
Halls of Stone/Lightning - Titan presence, but major relevance to the Yogg-Saron storyline, would need an overhaul
Violet Hold - Gone...

To say nothing of all the Icecrown dungeons, all the raids...

Just not feasible to update that stuff. We're gonna need a whole new slew of stuff. Where is it going to go?

If Northrend get's updated, I think it's a given, that dungeons/raids would get that treatment as well. You have lots of spaces you could explore. Coldarra, Iridikron's old lair. Whatever Titan machinery/halls lie under Ulduar and the Storm Peaks. Vrykul and scourged Drakkari remnants, Scourge remnants, Nerubians. They don't have to align with the old dungeons of WotLK at all.

I've been wondering this more and more..

Silvermoon and Quelthalas being updated to an expansion size zone makes sense in this regard, but Northrend is already massive. I don't see them cutting zones out so to speak, but I don't know how they are going to bring relevant storylines into the fold with all the area space we're aware of.

I don't see them doing an underground expansion again, but I do think its possible we could be going underneath Northrend instead. Azj'ol Nerub and lots of Manifold zones could be possible. There is a very small part of me that thinks the expansion intro alone will be in Northrend, and we lift a section of Ulduar into the air akin to Odin as a home city after the intro cinematic, in order to go somewhere else to find a possible "Last Titan" elsewhere in the world. However I do think that is very very unlikely. I doubt they'd drop returning to Northrend and then not truly return.

I think it's fairly certain that zones will be merged and of course reimagined. Northrend is big, but there is also a lot of empty space. I don't think zones would be cut but there will certainly be mergers to cut Northrend into about 4-5 zones, which shouldn't be too hard.

[huth]

Freya is also mentioned in one of those slates on the isle of dorne to have green eyes. Weird thing to point out for no reason. Gallywix has more yellow/brown ones, but maybe he gets a new model for the raid that changes them.

Gallywix makes little sense from a narrative PoV. We really don't need to be told to be wary of him.

[Nymrohd]

I think it's fairly certain that zones will be merged and of course reimagined. Northrend is big, but there is also a lot of empty space. I don't think zones would be cut but there will certainly be mergers to cut Northrend into about 4-5 zones, which shouldn't be too hard.

I don't know, Northrend often has adjacent zones that just don't look similar and don't flow well into each other. What are you pairing Sholazar with? Is Grizzly Hills going with Zul'Drak or with Howling Fjord? (and if the latter, what would you ever pair the other zone with then?) What happens to Crystalsong? I think unlike Kalimdor and EK where I could very easily group zones in groups of 2-4 and make a megazone, Northrend (and Outland to be fair) has harsh thematic differences between zones

[Enrif]

I wonder how dungeons and raids are going to be handled in TLT.

This isn't like Quel'thalas where it's only a couple of instances (Sunwell, Terrace, ZA)

Northrend has an entire expansion's worth of content. Much of it Scourge focused. Are we going to get radically altered and re-imagined dungeons, or a completely new crop?

Utgarde Keep/Pinnacle - Huge Scourge presence, would need massive overhaul
Nexus/Oculus - Blue dragons are on our side currently, irrelevant now?
Azjol-Nerub/Ahn'Kahet - Scourge/Old God presence, needs overhaul, maybe turned into an underground zone (the true Spider Kingdom at last?)
Drak'tharon Keep/Gundrak - Frost troll/Scourge presence, irrelevant now?
Halls of Stone/Lightning - Titan presence, but major relevance to the Yogg-Saron storyline, would need an overhaul
Violet Hold - Gone...

To say nothing of all the Icecrown dungeons, all the raids...

Just not feasible to update that stuff. We're gonna need a whole new slew of stuff. Where is it going to go?

They may revamp one or two of the old dungeons, but i don't think they will touch upon all of them.

Of the old dungeons, i think Halls of Stone will be the most important, especially with its forge of wills. After that, perhaps one of the Troll Dungeons. The remaining six will likely be new ones.

We can also compare that to TBC and WoD which had only one dungeon in common, Auchindoun, and even than, they are very very different.

As for Quel'Thalas, all new dungeon. I don't think they will make Zul'aman a dungeon for the third time, Magisters Terrace could be fair game for a dungeon though. The rest would be all new. Deathholme could easily work as a dungeon too.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't know, Northrend often has adjacent zones that just don't look similar and don't flow well into each other. What are you pairing Sholazar with? Is Grizzly Hills going with Zul'Drak or with Howling Fjord? (and if the latter, what would you ever pair the other zone with then?) What happens to Crystalsong? I think unlike Kalimdor and EK where I could very easily group zones in groups of 2-4 and make a megazone, Northrend (and Outland to be fair) has harsh thematic differences between zones

i think people already made some maps how things could flow, i did it like this some time ago

[Nymrohd]

i think people already made some maps how things could flow, i did it like this some time ago

Doesn't really help explain how the zones fit together thematically though. What zone storyline are you telling when part is in Zul'drak and the rest in Storm Peaks?

[Dracullus]

Why people talk about a Northrend 'update'? It isn't WoTLK remaster folks. We expect to see familiar places like Utgarde Keep or Ulduar, but builded from scratch, with different enemies, different functions - I suspect one of them could be Northrend city and for example I would love to see Utgarde Keep as full Vrykul raid.

As for zones, we probably will see some merging - Howling Fjord + Grizzly Hills are basically same zone, some could be reserved for patches (Storm Peaks? depends how Last Titan is builded, with Titans as enemies - last raid - or allies - Ulduar as capital city). Not to mention every zone will go through massive changes, 3.0 ones in many places are simply too empty. They could be filled by new places like Iridikron's lair.

And of course after Azj'Kahet many expect Azjol-Nerub to be big new underground zone.

[Enrif]

Doesn't really help explain how the zones fit together thematically though. What zone storyline are you telling when part is in Zul'drak and the rest in Storm Peaks?

Stormpeaks is the likely place to house big titan machines in northrend. I imagine it could break the stormpeaks and have it crumble towards Zuldrak. In this revealing titan machines, but also troll ruins. It could even be a combo titan-troll dungeon in there.

[Jaggler]

I don't know, Northrend often has adjacent zones that just don't look similar and don't flow well into each other. What are you pairing Sholazar with? Is Grizzly Hills going with Zul'Drak or with Howling Fjord? (and if the latter, what would you ever pair the other zone with then?) What happens to Crystalsong? I think unlike Kalimdor and EK where I could very easily group zones in groups of 2-4 and make a megazone, Northrend (and Outland to be fair) has harsh thematic differences between zones

Current zones also have rather big aesthetic differences. Azure span goes from the Decay infested West over Grizzly Hills 2.0 to the snow and ice covered east. Waking Shores united erupting volcanoes and overflowing life.

You can have the Sholazar go wild with the Life forces rampaging into the Borean Tundra or the glacier from Icecrown consuming large parts of the zone. You can have Zul'Drak being (re)setteled by Zandalari restoring it's glory and merging it with Storm Peaks to create a new Troll civilization at the foothills of the Peaks. Howling Fjord and Grizzly Hills are already flowing into each other very well, which leaves combining Icecrown and Dragonblight: Both rather desolate zones with a few points of resistance against the scourge which could be expanded.