1. #79661
    We already know we don't want an order inclined world either. Are people forgetting Algalon? Aman'thul would not want us on the planet.

    A world fully inclined by order is not a world we belong on. Don't forget the big reset button out in the desert. All of the current playable races exist outside of the titans design and would immediately be reset by the pantheon if they were in any position to do so.

    All of this needs to be viewed from the perspective of the average grunt in Stormwind and Orgrimmar. Do they belong and thrive in any of the theoretical cosmically dominated Azeroth's? The answer is no.

  2. #79662
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I would argue that we actually haven't. The vast majority of societies we've seen doesn't overly lean to any one force.

    And i'm not convinced that a heavily authoritarian society of fanatics is really better, even if it looks that way at a glance.

    For Life, just look at the Botani.
    Every Human kingdom other then Dalaran and KT has been pure light prior to WC3, In day of the Dragon it's even mentioned that light followers outside of Dal think being an arcane user means your soul is going to hell even if your good.

    The both types of Draenei lean super heavy into the light with the shaman part being relatively small.

    If we count arcane as order then we have the night elves night bourn and high elfs's who were all about it.

    if were not counting arcane we have the Earthen both in Northrend and dorn, and the dragon flights.

    There is no lack of societies leaning heavily into light/order

    The Botani are also the way they are because they have a left over link to the sporemound which wasn't pro life and was going to snuff it all out if not for Aggamar. There motives are uqniue to them not because they are life based.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  3. #79663
    Isn't Algalon proof that Order is not just blind obedience?

  4. #79664
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Every Human kingdom other then Dalaran and KT has been pure light prior to WC3, In day of the Dragon it's even mentioned that light followers outside of Dal think being an arcane user means your soul is going to hell even if your good.

    The both types of Draenei lean super heavy into the light with the shaman part being relatively small.

    If we count arcane as order then we have the night elves night bourn and high elfs's who were all about it.

    if were not counting arcane we have the Earthen both in Northrend and dorn, and the dragon flights.

    There is no lack of societies leaning heavily into light/order

    The Botani are also the way they are because they have a left over link to the sporemound which wasn't pro life and was going to snuff it all out if not for Aggamar. There motives are uqniue to them not because they are life based.
    While I think the point they were making was that just because a culture uses a particular kind of magic doesn't mean they represent a specific cosmic force. Can you really imagine the Scarlet Crusade representing the values of the Naaru?

    But what you said did remind me of a theory I had recently: That the Well of Eternity may have been created intentionally, to create elves; mortals attuned to order magic. And that the tree might not be the extent of Freya & Eonar diverting from their prime directive: Harronir could have been created by Freya to be true "Nature Elves"

  5. #79665
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    While I think the point they were making was that just because a culture uses a particular kind of magic doesn't mean they represent a specific cosmic force. Can you really imagine the Scarlet Crusade representing the values of the Naaru?
    that depends, is the Narru Xera? because i'm sure they would aline with her perfectly.

    Though id doubt that aligns with the nature of the light it self where I think the Draenei and second war alliance would be closer.

    But what you said did remind me of a theory I had recently: That the Well of Eternity may have been created intentionally, to create elves; mortals attuned to order magic. And that the tree might not be the extent of Freya & Eonar diverting from their prime directive: Harronir could have been created by Freya to be true "Nature Elves"
    I doubt it was intentional but I'm sure if it wasn't for the WoTA they would have been happy to take over the elves even mabye faking Elune as one of them.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  6. #79666
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    that depends, is the Narru Xera? because i'm sure they would aline with her perfectly.
    X'era let Alleria live.

  7. #79667
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nibelheimy View Post
    We already know we don't want an order inclined world either. Are people forgetting Algalon? Aman'thul would not want us on the planet.

    A world fully inclined by order is not a world we belong on. Don't forget the big reset button out in the desert. All of the current playable races exist outside of the titans design and would immediately be reset by the pantheon if they were in any position to do so.

    All of this needs to be viewed from the perspective of the average grunt in Stormwind and Orgrimmar. Do they belong and thrive in any of the theoretical cosmically dominated Azeroth's? The answer is no.
    The Titans aren't nearly that strict.

    Part of the ordering was seeding life to do as it pleased with the wild gods and there offspring and even in the "Titan Utopia" mortals are more or less left alone and observed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    X'era let Alleria live.
    True, though I think her tune would change post legion defeat.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  8. #79668
    I think the will of Eonar needs to be distinguished from the will of the other Titans.

    For example, is Ulderoth shown in Dragonflight really a world that reflects the will of the Titans? I suspect it's more of a world that reflects Eonar's will, where order and life have come together to influence it. It's also been hinted at in TWW that Eonar has her own plans that are different from the other Titans.

    It's possible that the Titans as we know them, especially their benevolent and positive side, are actually purely Eonar's traits.

  9. #79669
    Quote Originally Posted by hattahat View Post
    It's possible that the Titans as we know them, especially their benevolent and positive side, are actually purely Eonar's traits.
    If that's the case, it would make for an incredibly irritating change. The original portrayal of the pantheon was pretty decent—they were prone to being beneficial to mortals, but had an unfamiliar and highly utilitarian sense of morality driven mainly by the desire to impose order. Their embodiment of order was consistent, representing both the good and the bad that could come out of it. If all their benevolent traits were dropped on Eonar and they were reduced to "haha big bad evil tyrants!!" it would be a tremendous step forward in shriving the cosmic forces of what few interesting traits they had.
    Last edited by AOL Instant Messenger; 2024-10-17 at 01:29 AM.
    "We will soon be in a world in which a man may be howled down for saying that two and two make four."
    — G.K. Chesterton, 1926
    The frozen Mind cracks between the mineral staves which close upon it. The fault lies with your mouldy systems, your logic of 2 + 2 = 4.
    — Antonin Artaud, 1956

  10. #79670
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hattahat View Post
    It's possible that the Titans as we know them, especially their benevolent and positive side, are actually purely Eonar's traits.
    Aggamar seems pretty benevolent with his actions on Draneor as well.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  11. #79671
    Quote Originally Posted by AOL Instant Messenger View Post
    If that's the case, it would make for an incredibly irritating change. The original portrayal of the pantheon was pretty decent—they were prone to being beneficial to mortals, but had an unfamiliar and highly utilitarian sense of morality driven mainly by the desire to impose order. Their embodiment of order was consistent, representing both the good and the bad that could come out of it. If all their benevolent traits were dropped on Eonar and they were reduced to "haha big bad evil tyrants!!" it would be a tremendous step forward in shriving the cosmic forces of what few interesting traits they had.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Aggamar seems pretty benevolent with his actions on Draneor as well.
    Yes. I mean, Eonar is such a key character that I was talking about just her. But I think it's probably going to end up being more of a civil war between the Titans.

    In the end, I personally expect the final boss of TLT to be either Aman'thul or a Titan siding with him.

  12. #79672
    Quote Originally Posted by AOL Instant Messenger View Post
    You're entirely right about that. Unfortunately, some executions are more palatable than others. In TBC, as bad as the story itself was, the worldbuilding was generally very palatable and didn't feel wholly anathema to what the setting used to be. Conversely, recent executions in science-fantasy concepts in WoW have not been as palatable as they were then.
    What concepts are you talking about btw? The First Ones? Cause y'all already know how I feel about that

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    Quote Originally Posted by hattahat View Post
    I think the will of Eonar needs to be distinguished from the will of the other Titans.

    For example, is Ulderoth shown in Dragonflight really a world that reflects the will of the Titans? I suspect it's more of a world that reflects Eonar's will, where order and life have come together to influence it. It's also been hinted at in TWW that Eonar has her own plans that are different from the other Titans.

    It's possible that the Titans as we know them, especially their benevolent and positive side, are actually purely Eonar's traits.
    Or, some Titans actually are chill like that? For example: Aggramar

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    Quote Originally Posted by hattahat View Post
    Yes. I mean, Eonar is such a key character that I was talking about just her. But I think it's probably going to end up being more of a civil war between the Titans.

    In the end, I personally expect the final boss of TLT to be either Aman'thul or a Titan siding with him.
    I think Iridikron is gonna be the final boss of TLT. Just makes sense

    I do however want to battle the Titans "trials of the twelve" style in TLT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    X'era let Alleria live.
    Didn't Turalyon literally beg Xe'ra not to kill Alleria tho? Or?

  13. #79673
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuaj View Post
    Didn't Turalyon literally beg Xe'ra not to kill Alleria tho? Or?
    Yes. Along with Lothraxion.

    A great and terrible presence filled the hall. Turalyon felt holy wrath coalescing around Alleria. He
    stepped next to her. "Xe'ra, please, show mercy," he said.

    I warned her what would happen if she tolerated the Shadow. And now she would defile this place.

    Lothraxion knelt before the whirling power of the Mother of Light. "Hear my words. Lady Alleria
    Windrunner came back to save us, knowing that she would not be accepted here. Courage, honor,
    selflessness… these virtues still reside in her heart."

    Virtues count for nothing if you stray from the path the Light has chosen for you.

    And yet, despite her anger, Xe'ra hesitated.

    Turalyon opened his mind to her, letting her see his doubts, anguish, and resolve. "I beg you, Xe'ra, do
    not harm her."

    Xe'ra's merciless regard examined his soul, and then turned back to the woman he loved.

    Alleria Windrunner. Will you renounce the Void and pledge obedience to the Light?

    Alleria spoke without fear. "I will fight the Burning Legion until it is dust."

    Answer my question.

    "We walk different paths, but we are not enemies. I have seen it. I will join the Army of the Light in the
    final battle against the Legion, and together we will bring the demons down."

    No, Alleria. You will not. You will remain here, imprisoned, until you accept the path of righteousness
    once again. I will not allow you to taint what I have foreseen.


    "Do what you must."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Every Human kingdom other then Dalaran and KT has been pure light prior to WC3, In day of the Dragon it's even mentioned that light followers outside of Dal think being an arcane user means your soul is going to hell even if your good.

    The both types of Draenei lean super heavy into the light with the shaman part being relatively small.

    If we count arcane as order then we have the night elves night bourn and high elfs's who were all about it.

    if were not counting arcane we have the Earthen both in Northrend and dorn, and the dragon flights.

    There is no lack of societies leaning heavily into light/order

    The Botani are also the way they are because they have a left over link to the sporemound which wasn't pro life and was going to snuff it all out if not for Aggamar. There motives are uqniue to them not because they are life based.
    I think this is just more evidence to the contrary, tbh.

    What you're seeing is that good and regular societies (who use or follow those powers) can exist. But we have that exact case with the other three as well. Following and using Death hasn't corrupted the Night Fae, or the Kyrian, or the less greedy of Maldraxxus' houses, or Bwonsamdi's priesthood. Following Shadow didn't make the Arrakoa Outcasts evil, and it wasn't what made the AU Shadowmoon hostile. The Illidari retained their purpose despite rampant fel-magic usage, and Blood Elves were all also dosed with Fel but only the ones specifically politically motivated via Kael'thas' machinations started doing shady shit.

    Worshipping and using the Light hasn't stopped a bunch of civilizations from becoming just as murderous and vicious as the "bad" cosmic forces.

    I think you can basically treat every cosmic power the same:

    •Mortal groups will do whatever good or evil they want with the power.

    •Distilled in its pure form, the power is increasingly dangerous the more of it there is, and increasingly benign the less of it there is.

    •At the Pantheon Level, every power seems basically to want to control all of existence. Light, Order and Void are especially aggressive in this. Life seems content to subtly try amassing power (? it's hard to guage what Elune is really up to, fucking around with all the other powers), Death has a mix of both (Zovaal was like Light, Order and Void, the others seem content with maintaining the status quo). Chaos seemed to lack a pantheon prior to Order taking over, but it was, true to its nature, just doing whatever and running around conquering stuff.

  14. #79674
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Every Human kingdom other then Dalaran and KT has been pure light prior to WC3, In day of the Dragon it's even mentioned that light followers outside of Dal think being an arcane user means your soul is going to hell even if your good.
    I don't think we can have any kind of meaningfull discussion about the lore if we have to include the pre-WC3 version of Light which was vastly different from the current. Not that i'd agree with your claim to begin with; they were most certainly not "pure light". It was the most dominant force, but that's all. Warlocks, rogues, mages etc. didn't just suddenly spring up out of nowhere.

    For the Botani, that's kinda the point. Unrestrained Life is self-destructive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Isn't Algalon proof that Order is not just blind obedience?
    If anything, it's the opposite. We had to beat the realisation that blind obedience could be a bad thing into him.

  15. #79675
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    If anything, it's the opposite. We had to beat the realisation that blind obedience could be a bad thing into him.
    But we still could. So there is no actual compulsion of obedience. He is not some incarnate creature of Law that has to behave by a rigid set of rules; he has the option of free will. Now we still don't know what the Constellar exactly are (are they from Order itself, are they an older race of physical reality, where they created by the Titans?) but have we seen any creature of the Titans that completely lacked free will?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Yes. Along with Lothraxion.
    I'm just saying, X'era was willing to compromise to some extent. And she was probably far more on edge because of how laser-focused she was on her specific prophecy with Illidan (and being stuck in the middle of a war where she was vastly outnumbered). My general point is, even the creatures closest to their individual Forces that we have interacted with still have some level of deviation. So Warcraft immortals are not like D&D or Biblical immortals were to forsake any tenet of the concept you are supposed to incarnate completely alters you. They can be altered but that's usually through direct exposure (e.g. Sargeras bathing in the Fel of innumerable demons)

  16. #79676
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    But we still could. So there is no actual compulsion of obedience. He is not some incarnate creature of Law that has to behave by a rigid set of rules; he has the option of free will. Now we still don't know what the Constellar exactly are (are they from Order itself, are they an older race of physical reality, where they created by the Titans?) but have we seen any creature of the Titans that completely lacked free will?

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    I'm just saying, X'era was willing to compromise to some extent. And she was probably far more on edge because of how laser-focused she was on her specific prophecy with Illidan (and being stuck in the middle of a war where she was vastly outnumbered). My general point is, even the creatures closest to their individual Forces that we have interacted with still have some level of deviation. So Warcraft immortals are not like D&D or Biblical immortals were to forsake any tenet of the concept you are supposed to incarnate completely alters you. They can be altered but that's usually through direct exposure (e.g. Sargeras bathing in the Fel of innumerable demons)
    Yeah, but was she really "willing to compromise" or was she basically forced to compromise, precisely because the battalion was isolated in enemy territory with no hope for reinforcements and vaporizing Alleria could have very well turned Turalyon and Lothraxion, the leader of her forces and one of its lieutenants, against her and completely fractured their forces? Would she have let Alleria walk if the Xenedar was just one of a dozen ships and there were a bunch more Naaru such that Turalyon was just some captain? Would she have let Alleria walk if Alleria weren't Turalyon's beloved wife? Being convinced to spare her isn't much more moral weight than Zovaal entertaining Sylvanas' request to allow her the chance to try and convince Anduin to willingly aid them rather than just being forcibly dominated.

    I'm not arguing Xe'ra was evil or anything. Just that "she let Alleria live and instead was going to imprison her for all of eternity until she converted to the Light" isn't necessarily strong evidence that Xe'ra wouldn't be the sort to align with the Scarlets. She didn't spare Alleria because she couldn't bare to kill a decent person or something, she was going to murder Alleria--an ally, who had done nothing other than use the enemy's power to save important allies and get them back to safety--but was convinced to just imprison her instead.

    I'd sort of argue that situation is evidence that she is morally and ideologically aligned with a group like the Scarlets. Your first response to a good ally saving your people being to execute that ally on the spot for the "heresy" of using a forbidden power seems like something a Scarlet higherup would do.
    Last edited by Hitei; 2024-10-17 at 09:40 AM.

  17. #79677
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaggler View Post
    As I said I think part of it is that we already saw the worst the Void, Chaos and Death have to offer. But they are also needed opposites to they "good" counterparts if you want to say that.

    If you want creation, you need destruction to make room for new things.

    If you want life, you need death otherwise soon enough nothing will have room to grow.

    If you want the order of the Light you need dissent to evolve, change and adapt to new challenges.
    This is a great interpretation! It doesn't require anything to even be good or evil, they are all aspects of reality that are necessary for balance.

  18. #79678
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    I'd sort of argue that situation is evidence that she is morally and ideologically aligned with a group like the Scarlets. Your first response to a good ally saving your people being to execute that ally on the spot for the "heresy" of using a forbidden power seems like something a Scarlet higherup would do.
    I think the issue of the Void for Naaru is a really interesting discussion (that I don't think Blizzard has handled sufficiently) and that it justifies their extreme aversion and reaction. They are immortal creatures that are doomed, if wounded or exposed, to turn into their very opposite. The Void is not just something that the Naaru oppose; it is probably something that terrifies them. So I think X'era's response to Alleria is not a response to heresy; it is a response to a zombie or someone with open sores and deeply contagious walking into your sterile room.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2024-10-17 at 10:58 AM.

  19. #79679
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think the issue of the Void for Naaru is a really interesting discussion (that I don't think Blizzard has handled sufficiently) and that it justifies their extreme aversion and reaction. They are immortal creatures that are doomed, if wounded or exposed, to turn into their very opposite. The Void is not just something that the Naaru oppose; it is probably something that terrifies them. So I think X'era's response to Alleria is not a response to heresy; it is a response to a zombie or someone with open sores and deeply contagious walking into your sterile room.
    While this is true, we know that Naaru can return to the light. We saw it in the Priest Orderhall and in the WoD Shadowmoon Questline. But i would assume, even if it is possible for a Naaru to become a light creature again, they still would not take the risk of turning to the void.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If we somehow do get a void Hunter class, I’ll be the first one to post in this thread to admit my error.
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    I mean, trying to worm out of the way it's the WORLDSOUL saga... yah. It's Azeroth reaching out, not some light fairy.
    Enforcer (Warden/Spellbreaker) Class Idea , Naga using Worgen Rig Mockup, Blizz Class Survey

  20. #79680
    Quote Originally Posted by Enrif View Post
    While this is true, we know that Naaru can return to the light. We saw it in the Priest Orderhall and in the WoD Shadowmoon Questline. But i would assume, even if it is possible for a Naaru to become a light creature again, they still would not take the risk of turning to the void.
    Also both times it was extraordinarily difficult. First time it took numerous extraordinarily powerful priests, second time it took probably the strongest priest in Warcraft canon sacrificing himself.

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