The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Joshuaj]

December Trading Post is W3 focused:

You mean November?

- - - Updated - - -

Also "Crests of the Kingdom" is funny considering there is only 1 Kingdom crest there...

[micwini]

IMO it should be spelled PhOMO. It's clearly not a rational thing.

I mean it is very much a personal thing. No one needs to care about missing out on pixels in a video game.

[huth]

I mean it is very much a personal thing. No one needs to care about missing out on pixels in a video game.

Even in general it makes little rational sense. You will always have things you miss out on because you did something else instead. That's just life. Time is a finite resource.

[Dancaris]

You mean November?

- - - Updated - - -

Also "Crests of the Kingdom" is funny considering there is only 1 Kingdom crest there...

And it is Durotar crest btw. Back in a day of WC3 Durotar was considered kingdom, you know?

After the battle of Mount Hyjal, Thrall led his orcs to the south of Kalimdor. There he founded the kingdom of Durotar

Other is crest of fallen kingdom of Lordaeon. So its slightly counts too.
NE is not even crest. NEs didn't have kingdom in a first place. Scourge had Lich King, so it was kingdom?

[milkmustache]

Sounds like an argument of popularity then, which doesn't really apply to in-universe debates. Dunno how the presentation feels like they're "cosmos-coded" tho, as they very clearly have their own unique aesthetic, one that's showcased quite a bit in SL prior to Zereth Mortis (Namely VIA Oribos, the covenant soulbinding technology, the "soul conduit" stuff, Korthia, the Waystones, etc). In presentation, this stuff has always been Progenitor-coded, not the other way around.

And fair enough, but at the very least, I do see us going to different Zereths in the coming sagas, primarily as "end of saga" or "end of expac" events.

I agree that the Progenitor stuff has an aesethetic. I think what I'm having difficulty saying is that I think in-universe doesn't apply here. I know they were written to be the end all be all in-universe, but the real world reception to them was not very positive and it seems like Blizzard is shying away from it, so I think no matter how they are situated in-universe (which is already written and cannot be changed without a retcon of sorts) they will always take the back seat to any of the cosmo forces because those ones have far more involvement in the creation of the world over the past decades.

I just really, really do not see them ever returning, except maybe in the form that the Titans are actually the First Ones and have control or subjugation over all the cosmic forces (as our TLT conspiracy?). I'm not sure.

Instead of us visiting the Zereths, I'd like to see more Argus type situations. Not a separate plain or reality of the cosmic force, but a location in the universe of it's utmost power manifested. I think Midnight would bring us K'aresh for the Void in that sense. A more realized Ulduar or certain Titan facilities/seat of the pantheon could be that in TLT. I just think tying the forces to real accesible places to show their entire power without fully pulling back the curtain is a far more rewarding situation.

[Joshuaj]

I agree that the Progenitor stuff has an aesethetic. I think what I'm having difficulty saying is that I think in-universe doesn't apply here. I know they were written to be the end all be all in-universe, but the real world reception to them was not very positive and it seems like Blizzard is shying away from it, so I think no matter how they are situated in-universe (which is already written and cannot be changed without a retcon of sorts) they will always take the back seat to any of the cosmo forces because those ones have far more involvement in the creation of the world over the past decades.

I just really, really do not see them ever returning, except maybe in the form that the Titans are actually the First Ones and have control or subjugation over all the cosmic forces (as our TLT conspiracy?). I'm not sure.

Instead of us visiting the Zereths, I'd like to see more Argus type situations. Not a separate plain or reality of the cosmic force, but a location in the universe of it's utmost power manifested. I think Midnight would bring us K'aresh for the Void in that sense. A more realized Ulduar or certain Titan facilities/seat of the pantheon could be that in TLT. I just think tying the forces to real accesible places to show their entire power without fully pulling back the curtain is a far more rewarding situation.

Why do y'all want the First Ones to be retconned into "oh, they were the Titans all along"? That is such a lazy and boring mindset to have. Are we not allowed to expand beyond the Titans? To explore higher levels of the cosmology we've yet to see?

- - - Updated - - -

I do like the idea of there being more Argus-like situations tho.

- - - Updated - - -

And it is Durotar crest btw. Back in a day of WC3 Durotar was considered kingdom, you know?



Other is crest of fallen kingdom of Lordaeon. So its slightly counts too.
NE is not even crest. NEs didn't have kingdom in a first place. Scourge had Lich King, so it was kingdom?

Eh I guess, don't like the idea of calling Durotar a "kingdom" though. Granted, it's not wrong to call it that, so fair enough.

And as for the Scourge? Ehhh, outside of the Lich King name, the Scourge didn't really have a kingdom in WC3. I guess it became a Kingdom MUCH later (With the creation of ICC around the Frozen Throne and whatnot), but that's it.

[milkmustache]

Why do y'all want the First Ones to be retconned into "oh, they were the Titans all along"? That is such a lazy and boring mindset to have. Are we not allowed to expand beyond the Titans? To explore higher levels of the cosmology we've yet to see?

Perhaps it's just preference. The Titans are already at the godly level and have been for the entirety of the franchise, adding in a layer just above them didn't feel interesting, it felt diminishing. I'm all for expanding beyond the Titans and looking at other forces, namely Elune (while I still think keeping her mostly shrouded in mystery is beneficial), but looking at beings that are like the Titans but a level up would be lazy to me. So preference it seems.

[Joshuaj]

Perhaps it's just preference. The Titans are already at the godly level and have been for the entirety of the franchise, adding in a layer just above them didn't feel interesting, it felt diminishing. I'm all for expanding beyond the Titans and looking at other forces, namely Elune (while I still think keeping her mostly shrouded in mystery is beneficial), but looking at beings that are like the Titans but a level up would be lazy to me. So preference it seems.

Eh, I get your PoV. I just like the idea that there's a supreme being known as Death out there.

[huth]

Eh, I get your PoV. I just like the idea that there's a supreme being known as Death out there.

I'm on board as long as it's an overall nice guy in a black robe riding a white horse named Binky.

[Nightshade711]

Unless they retcon it, Blizzard kinda made it to where the First Ones are engraved in the Cosmology no matter what (Especially since the pattern is their design, and the cosmic forces are quite literally portions of themselves).

So, like it or not, they're here to stay.

New retcon:
“The First Ones are actually just a conspiracy theory and the real ‘first ones’ were just the titans ordering the cosmos”

[Joshuaj]

New retcon:
“The First Ones are actually just a conspiracy theory and the real ‘first ones’ were just the titans ordering the cosmos”

That's silly.

[Khaza-R]

And it is Durotar crest btw. Back in a day of WC3 Durotar was considered kingdom, you know?



Other is crest of fallen kingdom of Lordaeon. So its slightly counts too.
NE is not even crest. NEs didn't have kingdom in a first place. Scourge had Lich King, so it was kingdom?

You know I just realized the Night Elf one is missing the owl for some reason why the other 3 are pretty accurate to their WC3 depiction.

[Joshuaj]

I'm on board as long as it's an overall nice guy in a black robe riding a white horse named Binky.

I totally forgot, that was the Grim Reapers Horse, wasn't it?

Lmao, imagine if Progenitor Death shows up in the Mortal realm someway somehow, and it takes a Grim Reaper esc appearance with an automa horse named Binky LMAOOO! Tbf here, if the Progenitors had a non-High Table appearance for mortal conversation and whatnot, I could definitely see them as hooded figures, much like the dark rider statues on the Dark Portal, or the hooded figures at Torghast and the Everliving Statuette, etc.

[Xilurm]

New retcon:
“The First Ones are actually just a conspiracy theory and the real ‘first ones’ were just the titans ordering the cosmos”

That's silly.

There's actually a whole theory video from Xaxas about that.

[Nymrohd]

New retcon:
“The First Ones are actually just a conspiracy theory and the real ‘first ones’ were just the titans ordering the cosmos”

While First Ones seem to be a reprise of the Pantheon's theme, aesthetically they are clearly distinct from the Pantheon. Aesthetics matter for a visual medium like a game, probably quite more than narrative redundancy. Plus the First Ones lock in perfectly with Legion lore about the conflict between Void and Light (and by extension the Six Forces) being far older than the Pantheon.

[Alanar]

There's actually a whole theory video from Xaxas about that.

People still do that...? What a waste of time.

- - - Updated - - -

December Trading Post is W3 focused:

Its because of the anniversary. Its not really w3 focused at all, just this as a nod.

[Joshuaj]

There's actually a whole theory video from Xaxas about that.

I'm aware. I talked with him about it, and he quite literally made it because he didn't like the idea of the First Ones being above the Titans. The video was made VIA emotional reasons, rather than logical ones, and it very much shows.

"Zereth Mortis was made in the Nether" is not really a good argument to make.

- - - Updated - - -

Reminder, I can clearly tell he likes the lore, hell, I've seen other videos from him, and I can very much see he has passion and can lock in when he needs to, but you can tell that Progenitor video, as well edited as it is, was also made VIA wishful thinking and emotional bias.

- - - Updated - - -

There are a lot of reasons for why the First Ones can't logically be the Titans. One of the many factors is that, well, their architecture is quite literally different. Unless you're going to tell me that the Titans made it different intentionally, which I then have to ask: Why?

If they made it different across the Shadowlands alone, I can sort of see an argument to be made there (granted, I have some big counters regarding that as well), but it's different across Zereth Mortis as well, and the Eternal Ones are forbidden from entering there. If the Titans are the First Ones, and they forbid the Eternal Ones from entering Zereth Mortis, they wouldn't have much reason to worry about them seeing their technology and whatnot. But then that raises the question, why is it still different?

And how the hell can they make forges as powerful as the Forge of Afterlives, or the Machine of Origination? And what's up with the Heart of the Sepulcher being in the very heart of the cosmic design, where all 6 forces are shown in their most primal state?

Lots of things don't add up when arguing "Titans = First Ones" BS, or so. Also, didn't Xaxas argue that the Titans made the First Ones as pure "arcane" beings? Cause there is a big issue with that as well, primarily the fact that everything the First Ones' creations have utilized so far is anything BUT arcane. In fact, it's a whole different magic entire, AKA Creation Magic.

[SkyTides]

I think the first ones will not be retconned, but just left where they are - in history.
I imagine whatever they set up or created, they gave their whole being to, and are now basically gone. That way there doesn't need to be any more bigger bads than the cosmic forces.

I agree with previous posts that it would be fun to visit other worlds taken over by other cosmic forces. Personally I really enjoyed visiting the shadowlands in terms of the visuals and initial lore (excluding the jailor and some nonsense plot etc) Even though its clearly ordered, and probably not the 'real' force of Death

[Raetary]

Unless you're going to tell me that the Titans made it different intentionally, which I then have to ask: Why?

This is pretty silly.

The Titans repeatedly diverge from their primary Ulduar aesthetic.
Engine of Nalak'sha and the rest of Pandarias titan machinery, Uldir and its seals, all of Uldum, Stormheim and the Halls of Valor (which itself was even a section of Ulduar)

Even the Seat of the Pantheon is pretty distinct compared to what else we see on Azeroth.

Zereth Mortis also has a lot of overlapping aesthetic details to that of Titans facilities.
The highly geometric machinery and buildings, the runed and knotted accents, the energy beams that line their walls, the orbs with twisted surfaces and gyroscopic rings. (seriously, the Forge of Afterlives might as well just be a giant, repurposed Titan Orb)

It also doesn't help that the most recent titan facility we discovered, the Hall of Awakening, also has a distinct look but has the same diamond knots that we see in Zereth Mortis and its concept arts. (including an anima mote, which i feel like people are not talking about enough)

That said, i don't think they are the same.
The addition of Odyns propaganda notes and the connection that ZM has to the other Zereths very much establishes them as seperate entities.
The former because they are speficially mentioned as something different, the latter because that would mean the Titans would've already ordered the entire universe by now.

But its not exactly hard to come to the conclusion and i don't think Blizzard would have a hard time justifying it, if they do choose that route.
ZMs visuals are however not an argument, when the Titans themselves change their own visuals whenever they feel like it.

[Joshuaj]

This is pretty silly.

The Titans repeatedly diverge from their primary Ulduar aesthetic.
Engine of Nalak'sha and the rest of Pandarias titan machinery, Uldir and its seals, all of Uldum, Stormheim and the Halls of Valor (which itself was even a section of Ulduar)

Even the Seat of the Pantheon is pretty distinct compared to what else we see on Azeroth.

Zereth Mortis also has a lot of overlapping aesthetic details to that of Titans facilities.
The highly geometric machinery and buildings, the runed and knotted accents, the energy beams that line their walls, the orbs with twisted surfaces and gyroscopic rings. (seriously, the Forge of Afterlives might as well just be a giant, repurposed Titan Orb)

It also doesn't help that the most recent titan facility we discovered, the Hall of Awakening, also has a distinct look but has the same diamond knots that we see in Zereth Mortis and its concept arts. (including an anima mote, which i feel like people are not talking about enough)

That said, i don't think they are the same.
The addition of Odyns propaganda notes and the connection that ZM has to the other Zereths very much establishes them as seperate entities.
The former because they are speficially mentioned as something different, the latter because that would mean the Titans would've already ordered the entire universe by now.

But its not exactly hard to come to the conclusion and i don't think Blizzard would have a hard time justifying it, if they do choose that route.
ZMs visuals are however not an argument, when the Titans themselves change their own visuals whenever they feel like it.

Nice argument, but you forget 1 major factor: Those different Titan designs all still possess a couple major similarities:

1. They all have Keepers.

2. They're all made for the process of providing Order in some way.

And 3. They're all taken from different types of real life Mythology. Ulduar, Uldaman, etc take from Greek Myth (although the Keepers are named after Norse Myth). The Halls of Valor and Helheim take from Norse Myth (and, funny enough, the Halls of Valor were made after Odyn peered into the Shadowlands and took inspiration from Bastion, so there's that), Uldum and the Forge of Origination take from Egyptian Myth, literally any Titan machine and creation in Pandaria is taken from Chinese myth, and Uldir is taken from Aztec myth.

There is not anything close to stuff relating to Progenitor architecture in their designs. They can take influence from the Progenitors (as we've seen in the game quite a bit, tbh), but that's it.

Heck, all cosmic forces displayed so far take from different things, both IRL and fictional. The Shadowlands in particular take from different Deathly concepts (Such as 80s rock cover necrotic battlefields, a realm that's inspired by Elysium, Castlevania but WoW, a Celtic Miyazaki inspired eternal forest, and literal Super Hell that's based off different beliefs (Such as Christian Hell (Namely Dantes Inferno), and Tartarus). Oribos does also take from Greek Myth as well, but it's namely done VIA the infinite cycles and the whole "Arbiter" thing, with judgement. Even then, the Ouroboros is a thing that applies to every force, and the stuff shown at Oribos very much ain't Titan related, and is Death-focused.

But that's my point. It's different, they're used for different things, and no matter the influence or inspiration, they all come from the same source, and we see the other influences take from said source quite a bit. I'm surprised you and others haven't properly seen that yet.

Call it silly if you like, but that's on you. The game itself has quite literally told you the purposes of the forces and whatnot, and DF doubled down on the Progenitor stuff by having Odyn call the First Ones the actual makers. If you don't want to belief anything that's shown there, go on ahead.

Heck, I apparently didn't need to mention this, cause you yourself mention it in your reply to me lmao. And you also think they're different, so why make the counterargument? For Devils Advocate? Don't answer that. I can play along.

But don't say I didn't try to inform you on this stuff IF they double down on the Progenitor stuff again later on.

- - - Updated - - -

As for the seat of the pantheon? That's still very Greek lol. Heck, pretty sure it's set up very much like the Greek Pantheons seat atop Olympus.

- - - Updated - - -

And for the Halls of Awakening? I can see the similarities, but reminder that the Halls of Awakening stuff is also shown a lot with the Earthern and whatnot (Primarily with the Coreway). Could just be an architectural inspiration from the Titans? Though, I can also argue that the Halls of Awakening look VERY Aggramar inspired, whereas places like Oribos and Korthia have a different vibe altogether. I mean, for other examples of seeming inspiration or progeny, a lot of the Black Empires architecture is very much Progenitor inspired, namely with the stones and obelisks.

So, who knows? The Titans taking inspiration from their creators is definitely a good argument to make, especially if they want to spread a narrative that they themselves are "the creators", as to them, Order and Creation are one in the same, and they don't want mortals to know of the ACTUAL creators.

Also, what Anima mote? Cause it wouldn't be the first time the Titans studied anima (Ik they tried to say the MoP anima was different, but let's be real lol). Also, they worked with Death before, so them having some Anima would make sense.