The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Timester]

This is really going in a direction that will just create a long and annoying discussion that has absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic.

It kinda has with topic that is being debated, about the nuanced Titans, when both representations are used in Warcraft lore, either with the Church of Light and the Titans.

[Makabreska]

Yeah, the expansion where the Orcs wanted to be conquerors and not slaves, showcasing their primal nature and whatnot. The Orcs themselves aren't really evil, and are simply following their "expand and conquer" mindset.

Kinda like real life history, funny enough.

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And just like real life, you have Orcs that don't fw the Iron Horde, like the Frost Wolves, or some of the Laughing Skull clan

Garrosh and the boys slaughter Draenei men, women and children and intend to attack Azeroth, all unprovoked, and it's all fine, because they are simply conquerors?

Massive oooof dude.

[Timester]

That's actually kind of intereting that Metzen saw Blood Elves as being bad. I always thought they were more tragic than evil. Certainly aligning yourself with demons is morally questionable. But ultimatley their actions in WC3 didn't read as evil. That might explain the massive disconnect with the community when he villain batted Kael in TBC though.

It's the core of the twist he wanted to represent. Yes, with the development gained other narratives.

It was the same mindset he used later with "demonic paladins", aka the Draenei.

Found the video (the correct word is actually "crazy" elfs):

[Enrif]

Yeah, my argument is that you're misinterpreting it, and are assuming the Light shards argument applies to all of them, when it specifically talks about the Naaru.

It is clearly written in a way:

The cataclysmic birth of the cosmos also flung shards of Light throughout reality. These shards suffused the matter of myriad worlds with the spark of life, giving rise to creatures of wondrous and terrible diversity.

The most common forms of life to appear were the elemental spirits—primordial beings of fire, water, earth, and air. These creatures were native to nearly every physical world. Many of them reveled in the turmoil that held sway over the early ages of creation.

Occasionally, clouds of fractured Light gathered and gave shape to beings of far greater power, of far greater potential. Among these were the naaru, benevolent creatures composed of scintillating holy energies. When they gazed out across the immeasurable universe, they saw a realm of limitless possibilities. The naaru vowed to use their mastery over holy magic to spread hope and nurture life wherever they could find it.

Even more extraordinary than the naaru were the colossal titans. Their spirits—known as world-souls—formed deep within the fiery core of a small number of worlds. For ages, these nascent titans slumbered, their energies suffusing the celestial bodies they inhabited.

It is a clear escalation of scale from the same source:
Shard of Light flung into reality -> giving rise to creatures -> most common form are elemental spirits -> Cloud gathered of fractured light of far greater powers, the naaru -> Even more extraordinary than the naaru were the colossal titans.

[Joshuaj]

Garrosh and the boys slaughter Draenei men, women and children and intend to attack Azeroth, all unprovoked, and it's all fine, because they are simply conquerors?

Massive oooof dude.

No no. You're right, and much of the Iron Horde is evil. However, some Iron Horde members aren't slaying innocent Draenei, or they defect as soon as they learn about it (Like AU Orgrim), and others are simply in the laboring positions, like many of the Orcs shown at Blackrock Foundry or the pits right outside the Foundry. I wouldn't call them evil or anything.

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It is clearly written in a way:


It is a clear escalation of scale from the same source:
Shard of Light flung into reality -> giving rise to creatures -> most common form are elemental spirits -> Cloud gathered of fractured light of far greater powers, the naaru -> Even more extraordinary than the naaru were the colossal titans.

It says the shards gave rise to life across the beyond, meaning their radiance was so great, that it basically made the Beyond suitable for life. Some life were the Elements, some life involved the shards themselves AKA the Naaru, and the crazier forms of life were the Worldsouls.

And reminder that the Titan origin may not even be true anymore. The Worldsoul stuff definitely isn't true, as Argus' soul seemingly existed before the physical universe itself, which proves true for a lot of cosmic beings in general, such as Zovaal.

[Merryck]

The Titans have never done anything wrong ever.

[Zers Editor]

A little something I came up with regarding the possible turn of events in The Last Titan.

Iridikron does succeed at destroying the Titans upon their arrival at Azeroth, but not so long after, their souls take possession of the Keepers. Aman'thul, inhabiting Odyn, destroys Iridikron and cements himself as the main big bad with Illidan and Sargeras joining forces with us to stop him.

[Joshuaj]

A little something I came up with regarding the possible turn of events in The Last Titan.

Iridikron does succeed at destroying the Titans upon their arrival at Azeroth, but not so long after, their souls take possession of the Keepers. Aman'thul, inhabiting Odyn, destroys Iridikron and cements himself as the main big bad with Illidan and Sargeras joining forces with us to stop him.

Y'all love the idea of making Odyn the final boss of an expansion, huh?

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The Titans have never done anything wrong ever.

Ha.

Ha.

Ha.

[Enrif]

And reminder that the Titan origin may not even be true anymore. The Worldsoul stuff definitely isn't true, as Argus' soul seemingly existed before the physical universe itself, which proves true for a lot of cosmic beings in general, such as Zovaal.

Argus story fits perfectly in there. He was a shard of light, found a nice place near a sun, a world grew around him. Done.

It was energy, spinning out into the cosmos.
Blink.
It found warmth near a sun, and a world formed around it to protect it as it grew.

That still fits with what chronicles implies. energy spining in the cosmos, likte the clouds of light the naaru formed from?

[Joshuaj]

Argus story fits perfectly in there. He was a shard of light, found a nice place near a sun, a world grew around him. Done.



That still fits with what chronicles implies. energy spining in the cosmos, likte the clouds of light the naaru formed from?

Energy =/= A shard.

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We've seen the energies of Argus and Azeroth. They're not Light shards.

[Enrif]

Energy =/= A shard.

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We've seen the energies of Argus and Azeroth. They're not Light shards.

You have seen argus after millenia of torment by the legion, pumped to the brim with death magic. And azeroth is quite literally a radiant flaming orb

[Joshuaj]

You have seen argus after millenia of torment by the legion, pumped to the brim with death magic. And azeroth is quite literally a radiant flaming orb

Azeroth's soul quite literally looks similar to Argus', except it's gold lol. This is the case in both the Titan Archives stuff, as well as the beginning section of the Echos of Azeroth cinematic. Obviously it's much bigger and more evolved now (To the point where it actually looks like a planets core, which is cool), but it definitely isn't a light shard.

[Zers Editor]

Y'all love the idea of making Odyn the final boss of an expansion, huh?

Having his (Aman'thul's) body slowly transform by the course of the expansion into the one that fully resembles his original self would be neat.

[Joshuaj]

And even if you wanted to argue it's a Light shard, which is possible but I doubt it (Note that I've been wrong before), then you can just say that's the first step in a Worldsouls growth.

[Enrif]

Azeroth's soul quite literally looks similar to Argus', except it's gold lol. This is the case in both the Titan Archives stuff, as well as the beginning section of the Echos of Azeroth cinematic. Obviously it's much bigger and more evolved now (To the point where it actually looks like a planets core, which is cool), but it definitely isn't a light shard.

Azeroth is golden... like the light .. duh!
Wait, do you think "shards" of light, means actually shards? like a crystal shard? or the shards of a naaru? Shards of light is most likely a metaphor. Like speckles of light, or traces of light, or drops of light. Not quite literarily shards

[Ersula]

Argus story fits perfectly in there. He was a shard of light, found a nice place near a sun, a world grew around him. Done.

You're conflating origin myths. For one, we know the shards hit planets that don't have worldsouls, like Draenor. According to Chronicles, the Naaru sent out shards that seeded planets with sentient life. The exact logistics of that is ambiguous (like, did the crystal shards stimulate the brains of the normal living organisms, or where these planets going to be completely devoid of life, besides the nascent world souls within?) But nowhere does it say the shards literally became the planets.

We were led to believe the planet (azeroth) completely absorbing the elemental motes of life is what created its worldsoul but with today's information all that is thrown into question.

Azeroth is golden... like the light .. duh!
Wait, do you think "shards" of light, means actually shards? like a crystal shard? or the shards of a naaru? Shards of light is most likely a metaphor. Like speckles of light, or traces of light, or drops of light. Not quite literarily shards

Why should we assume its a metaphor? It might be, but considering Literal Giant Crystalized Light Shards hitting planets are a common thing in this franchise, there's no reason not to think "shard of light" is literal.

[Enrif]

You're conflating origin myths. For one, we know the shards hit planets that don't have worldsouls, like Draenor. According to Chronicles, the Naaru sent out shards that seeded planets with sentient life. The exact logistics of that is ambiguous (like, did the crystal shards stimulate the brains of the normal living organisms, or where these planets going to be completely devoid of life, besides the nascent world souls within?) But nowhere does it say the shards literally became the planets.

We were led to believe the planet (azeroth) completely absorbing the elemental motes of life is what created its worldsoul but with today's information all that is thrown into question.

The shards of light are from the big bang of the warcraft universe, they didn't started after the worlds were already there. They created life (from chronicles)

Also, Azeroth didn't consume life, but the element of spirit. Not quite the same.

[Ersula]

The shards of light are from the big bang of the warcraft universe, they didn't started after the worlds were already there. They created life (from chronicles)

Also, Azeroth didn't consume life, but the element of spirit. Not quite the same.

For one thing, The elemental essence of spirit, is life; at least in terms of the warcraft chronology, They're the same thing.

Second of all, you're conflating two completely separate events in warcraft history. The Naaru sent out the shards for the expressed purpose of seeding life on planets. Before that, the First Ones concieved of their plan to create the chronology, including separating the realms of the living from the realms of the dead. And then before that the metaphysical conflict between Light & Void brought the universe into being. You're talking about things that happened eons later. Because, obviously, how do you seed life on planets before planets even exist?

[Enrif]

For one thing, The elemental essence of spirit, is life; at least in terms of the warcraft chronology, They're the same thing.

Second of all, you're conflating two completely separate events in warcraft history. The Naaru sent out the shards for the expressed purpose of seeding life on planets. Before that, the First Ones concieved of their plan to create the chronology, including separating the realms of the living from the realms of the dead. And then before that the metaphysical conflict between Light & Void brought the universe into being. You're talking about things that happened eons later. Because, obviously, how do you seed life on planets before planets even exist?

What are you on about. Life and spirit are not the same. Life is a Cosmic Force, Spirit is a element.

Also, no, the Shard of light are not send by the naaru. They are, according to chronicles, part of the big bang, and the shards formed Naaru, not the other way around.

[Joshuaj]

For one thing, The elemental essence of spirit, is life; at least in terms of the warcraft chronology, They're the same thing.

Second of all, you're conflating two completely separate events in warcraft history. The Naaru sent out the shards for the expressed purpose of seeding life on planets. Before that, the First Ones concieved of their plan to create the chronology, including separating the realms of the living from the realms of the dead. And then before that the metaphysical conflict between Light & Void brought the universe into being. You're talking about things that happened eons later. Because, obviously, how do you seed life on planets before planets even exist?

What do you mean the essence of Spirit is life? You're not talking the cosmos force, yeah?