The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Joshuaj]

When you suggested that there's an eternal one for each cosmic force and there's one called void or shadow my eyes rolled so far back in my head they nearly didn't come back down.

Respectfully, the pot is calling the kettle black.

Can't wait for another cool burger king crown to power us up.

You mean First One?

Also, read Chronicle 4. I'm only going off what that said, and I've questioned it's absolution in terms of how the Progenitors are named before.

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I can send you a screenshot of the page talking about the First Ones if you'd like. I have Chronicle 4.

[Nibelheimy]

You mean First One?

Also, read Chronicle 4. I'm only going off what that said, and I've questioned it's absolution in terms of how the Progenitors are named before.

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I can send you a screenshot of the page talking about the First Ones if you'd like. I have Chronicle 4.

I couldn't care. As much as you'd love to twist even an insult into discussion about them. The topic is uninteresting, dull and irrelevant to me

My point is don't come into the forum saying most people's speculations are dogshit. It's bad enough we have to put up with almost constant de-railment of the thread back into the shadowlands and first ones without you attempting to insult everybody over their ideas.

[Joshuaj]

I couldn't care. As much as you'd love to twist even an insult into discussion about them. The topic is uninteresting, dull and irrelevant to me

My point is don't come into the forum saying most people's speculations are dogshit. It's bad enough we have to put up with almost constant de-railment of the thread back into the shadowlands and first ones without you attempting to insult everybody over their ideas.

Say it to the person who actually brought it up, not me. The only reason I brought up SL even remotely was to use an example as to why I think the Titans aren't so "big" in actuality (I prefer using the Jailer over Argus and N'Zoth, as he's actually a Titan lvl being and not a "low tier Titan lvl" being or something that's debatably Titan lvl).

Suffice to say, calling us ants to the Titans is silly, and I explained why.

[Nibelheimy]

Say it to the person who actually brought it up, not me. The only reason I brought up SL even remotely was to use an example as to why I think the Titans aren't so "big" in actuality (I prefer using the Jailer over Argus and N'Zoth, as he's actually a Titan lvl being and not a "low tier Titan lvl" being or something that's debatably Titan lvl).

Suffice to say, calling us ants to the Titans is silly, and I explained why.

I have no idea why you're trying to engage in Janitor talk with me. These are the posts i will continue to not engage with. To repeat, these discussion are dull and irrelevant to me.

But remember to stop Y'allself from saying everybody else's speculation is bad.

[Joshuaj]

I have no idea why you're trying to engage in Janitor talk with me. These are the posts i will continue to not engage with. To repeat, these discussion are dull and irrelevant to me.

But remember to stop Y'allself from saying everybody else's speculation is bad.

You can't just say something out of nowhere and not try to understand the context of things. Come on now.

[Limayria]

The "seventh" force is going to be the mortals/azeroth and our goal is to keep balance in the universe preventing any one force from totally over taking material reality which is why we (the mortals) can use any other power source. Also void is the source of free will due to the whole multiple timelines thing

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Metzen was not exclusively responsible for Warcraft lore. Writing Reign of Chaos & Frozen Throne was his full time job. That's the whole thing. That's why the Titans & Dragonflights are completely absent from Warcraft 3.~ Two completely different teams of people.

Metzen was the creative director of wow, he would be the one leading the writing team of it not some uninvolved party while they come up with what ever.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Metzen was not exclusively responsible for Warcraft lore. Writing Reign of Chaos & Frozen Throne was his full time job. That's the whole thing. That's why the Titans & Dragonflights are completely absent from Warcraft 3.~ Two completely different teams of people.

The blue Dragonflight, ruled by Malygos, the lord of magic, was all but devastated by the evil Deathwing and his black Dragonflight.

Alexstrasza the Life-Binder, Malygos the Spell-Weaver, Ysera the Dreamer, Nozdormu the Timeless, and Neltharion the Earth-Warder were all empowered by the Titans’ vast powers and charged with the world’s defense.

When I say absent from Warcraft 3 I mean all the details about Titans making constructs & fascilities, any establishment of what they do outside of the origin myth

(T)hey created the dwarves from magical, living stone.

unfathomable, far-sighted plan to create order out of chaos.

That second one's a bit disingenuous, but it does relate.

[Joshuaj]

Metzen was not exclusively responsible for Warcraft lore. Writing Reign of Chaos & Frozen Throne was his full time job. That's the whole thing. That's why the Titans & Dragonflights are completely absent from Warcraft 3.~ Two completely different teams of people.

~(just to defer the pedantic comments: Yes, Metzen himself probably wrote the original origin myth, including the Titans & the associated terminology. For example, Sargaras is called the Dark Titan in Warcraft 3, in the only use of that word in the entire game. When I say absent from Warcraft 3 I mean all the details about Titans making constructs & fascilities, any establishment of what they do outside of the origin myth, was almost completely the creation of the writers working on the World of Warcraft team.)

Honestly the fact that the Dragonflights weren't involved in Archamonde's attack on Hyjal should be considered a massive plot hole.
Considering the Titans as cosmic horrors rather than benevolent saviors seems to be consistent with Metzen's writing, cause Metzen was writing for Wotlk. But Metzen also does lean into these things being a matter of perspective: Good because they did stop the Old Gods from taking over. Bad because they prioritize themselves. Uncaring gods. Existentialism.

Actually when you take all this into consideration, it becomes clear the Eternal Ones & First Ones seem to be trying to recreate what Metzen did with the original origin myth before WoW made the Titans' lore pedestrian: A more mysterious creator after they took away the mystery of the Titans.

The Titans and their works are talked about a ton in the WC3 manual btw

[Ersula]

The Titans and their works are talked about a ton in the WC3 manual btw

Yeah, like I said, only in their relation to Warcraft's origin Myth. (They also call it "The Ordering" which you were just berating me for calling it several pages ago.) Creating armies of constructs that would eventually become sapient races, making the Dragonflights, building fascilities to fight the old gods, Worldsouls in general, that was all the WoW team's doing. The Warcraft 3 manual only mentions the Titans making Azeroth, (???) "empowering the sentient races" (???), imprisoning the Elemental Lords and Sargeras betraying them. Only half of those things actually happened in the current lore.

The likely reason they're doing "the worldsoul saga" because Metzen (and I) are sick & tired of that entire aspect of the lore, so they're putting it to bed.

[Joshuaj]

Yeah, like I said, only in their relation to Warcraft's origin Myth. (They also call it "The Ordering" which you were just berating me for calling it several pages ago.) Creating armies of constructs that would eventually become sapient races, making the Dragonflights, building fascilities to fight the old gods, Worldsouls in general, that was all the WoW team's doing. The Warcraft 3 manual only mentions the Titans making Azeroth, (???) "empowering the sentient races" (???), imprisoning the Elemental Lords and Sargeras betraying them. Only half of those things actually happened in the current lore.

The likely reason they're doing "the worldsoul saga" because Metzen (and I) are sick & tired of that entire aspect of the lore, so they're putting it to bed.

I berated you in regards to you saying the First Ones ordered the cosmos. I never berated you in saying the Titans ordered it. The Titans ordering the cosmos has been a thing in the story from the beginning. That has actual narrative weight to it even before Chronicle.

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Also, I just read the WC3 manual, and it states that the Titans found Azeroth. It never says they created it. It also says that, after the defeat of the Old Gods, the Titans empowered races to help shape the orld of Azeroth in their image. This could simply imply they created and empowered their own races, or they went and empowered races that showed up naturally on Azeroth. Either way, it's not really something the current lore really contradicts, especially with the implication that the Titans take from other things and utilize them, which could include Azeroth's early forms of intelligent life.

Them creating the dwarves straight up tho was a retcon, as that's been changed to them making the Earthern. And some of those Earthern would eventually end up becoming the dwarves via the Curse/Gift of Flesh.

[Nymrohd]

Honestly the fact that the Dragonflights weren't involved in Archamonde's attack on Hyjal should be considered a massive plot hole.
Considering the Titans as cosmic horrors rather than benevolent saviors seems to be consistent with Metzen's writing, cause Metzen was writing for Wotlk. But Metzen also does lean into these things being a matter of perspective: Good because they did stop the Old Gods from taking over. Bad because they prioritize themselves. Uncaring gods. Existentialism.

Actually when you take all this into consideration, it becomes clear the Eternal Ones & First Ones seem to be trying to recreate what Metzen did with the original origin myth before WoW made the Titans' lore pedestrian: A more mysterious creator after they took away the mystery of the Titans.

Also I know there are book sources that suggest otherwise but FAR MORE people have heard this by doing the boss during Wrath, later on or just watching it on Youtube:

I have seen worlds bathed in the Makers' flames, their denizens fading without so much as a whimper. Entire planetary systems born and razed in the time that it takes your mortal hearts to beat once. Yet all throughout, my own heart devoid of emotion... of empathy. I. Have. Felt. Nothing. A million-million lives wasted. Had they all held within them your tenacity? Had they all loved life as you do?
Perhaps it is your imperfections... that which grants you free will... that allows you to persevere against all cosmically calculated odds. You prevail where the Titan's own perfect creations have failed.

and EVERYONE who played during Wrath knows this

Citizens of Dalaran! Raise your eyes to the skies and observe!
Today our world's destruction has been averted in defiance of our very makers!
Algalon the Observer, herald of the titans, has been defeated by our brave comrades in the depths of the titan city of Ulduar.
Algalon was sent here to judge the fate of our world.
He found a planet whose races had deviated from the titans' blueprints. A planet where not everything had gone according to plan.
Cold logic deemed our world not worth saving. Cold logic, however, does not account for the power of free will. It's up to each of us to prove this is a world worth saving.
That our lives... our lives are worth living.

So yeah. These are things every player who was around with Wrath either directly lived through or eventually saw because of youtube. And I am sure they outnumber people who actually read the interactible books or actually read the Chronicle.
So what we know is that the Titans have killed trillions of people and wiped out entire planetary systems because they deviated from their plans. So . . . yeah they don't seem that benevolent to me.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

that was all the WoW team's doing.

Again Metzen was not only was on the wow team but was the creative director of it and stayed that way through wrath and mop when you know we got Ulduar and the “rebuild the final titan” stuff.

If he didn’t personally write all the lore for the titans which there’s a good chance he did, then her personally directed those who did.

[Nymrohd]

Imagine if Elune is a worldsoul that defied Aman'Thul and is now chilling inside the moon.

Like, a nice auntie looking out for Azeroth to ensure she remains free.

Elunaria might be her homeworld, which she was able to leave.

Yeah that was my suggestion. Either defied him or simply had her own path before she met him. Would immediately explain Elunaria, explain her relation with Eonar, why she is an "upstart".

[Nymrohd]

Would be cool.

The Brokers say someone with her origins is not to be trusted. I wonder what that means.

Plus her "sisterhood" with the Winter Queen.

If the WQ is a robot created by those who are not to be named in order to watch over Ardenweald and its souls... did they somehow inject her with the soul of a real creature, or is her kinship with Elune more of an alliance? Sort of like Eonar being her great love, or whatever it was.

Is Elune setting up all these alliances over vast aeons of time, in order to achieve her goals?

Or sisterhood is metaphoric and Elune is a sister to the Winter Queen in the same way she is with Eonar; she has fostered a strong relationship with her.

[Eldryth]

Would be cool.

The Brokers say someone with her origins is not to be trusted. I wonder what that means.

Plus her "sisterhood" with the Winter Queen.

If the WQ is a robot created by those who are not to be named in order to watch over Ardenweald and its souls... did they somehow inject her with the soul of a real creature, or is her kinship with Elune more of an alliance? Sort of like Eonar being her great love, or whatever it was.

Is Elune setting up all these alliances over vast aeons of time, in order to achieve her goals?

Maybe Elune is a Worldsoul that wasn't forced to any single Cosmic force, and ended up born as a truly free deity that can act independently and can make use of all cosmic powers? And is working to ensure Azeroth is properly born with that same freedom?

It would make sense of her seeming distinct yet connected to so many different forces. She could freely bond with the Winter Queen (and potentially have an even stronger connection to her as sisters, like being born from worlds in the same solar system or moons of the same planet) and Eonar. Take a part of the Realm of Life as her own, with or without Life's permission (the Titans were able to take over a part of it to make the Emerald Dream so it's not unprecedented, and as far as I remember the information we got on her during Shadowlands never got more specific than "the Winter Queen's sister in the realms of Life, who maintains the Cycle with the Winter Queen"- nothing about her being part of a Pantheon).

Create the Naaru out of Light- which could completely recontextualize the mystery of Beledar, come to think of it. The fact that it looked so much like a Naaru thing but the Archives strongly implied that it was a crystalized manifestation of the Worldsoul's power seemed to be in conflict, but if Naaru are created by independent Worldsouls... could Azeroth be creating her own Naaru, with Beledar being an egg, or the first phase of its life cycle, or something?

I actually really like this idea now that I'm thinking of it. It fits everything I can remember very well, gives Elune the significance she deserves after decades of buildup, and creates a great example of what Azeroth can become if all the forces fighting to control her are defeated.

[Timester]

Guys, what's with this idea that Metzen wasn't involved with the lore writting or decisions? He said in the WoWCast he was hyper-prescriptive as a Creative Director in the past.



Yes, people like Knaak, Golden and Kosak might had influenced the expansion of the lore, but at the end of the day, it was all up to Metzen's head and idea of direction. The Titans are his creation after all, as they were first mention in the Warcraft III manual (all written by Metzen to justify Sargeras, also Metzen's creation in Warcraft II) and weren't even part of the game itself.

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Also, I just read the WC3 manual, and it states that the Titans found Azeroth. It never says they created it. It also says that, after the defeat of the Old Gods, the Titans empowered races to help shape the orld of Azeroth in their image. This could simply imply they created and empowered their own races, or they went and empowered races that showed up naturally on Azeroth. Either way, it's not really something the current lore really contradicts, especially with the implication that the Titans take from other things and utilize them, which could include Azeroth's early forms of intelligent life.

Them creating the dwarves straight up tho was a retcon, as that's been changed to them making the Earthern. And some of those Earthern would eventually end up becoming the dwarves via the Curse/Gift of Flesh.

Yes, the Ordering, nothing new. They found Azeroth and ordered it as they wanted. But the dwarves were created by the Titans, that's not retcon:

To help them dredge out the fathomless caverns beneath the earth, they created the dwarves from magical, living stone.

[Nymrohd]

Guys, what's with this idea that Metzen wasn't involved with the lore writting or decisions? He said in the WoWCast he was hyper-prescriptive as a Creative Director in the past.

This forum is obsessed with who is responsible for WoW lore at any given time, mostly in the context of placing all the hate on someone they dislike (usually Afrasiabi and/or Danuser) or excusing someone they do like (Metzen or Danuser)

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That's what I was getting at, yeah.

Could she once, long ago, have approached her to ensure Wild Gods or Night Elves recieved preferential treatment, perhaps.

Could also be that Elune is how in TLT we will be able to stand up to Titans. We've faced super powerful bosses before but always we were empowered in a relevant way. Elune seems to have opposed Aman'thul forcing Order on the other World Souls which would make sense why she waited for the Pantheon to be away to approach Azeroth and explains why she approached Eonar. Her being a World Soul explains her power level without creating yet another form of being in the setting while also showing a version of World Soul that did not align with Order and become a Titan. And with her backing we should be able to take on the Pantheon (though alternatively we could have Eonar and Aggramar on our side).

[Xilurm]

Honestly the fact that the Dragonflights weren't involved in Archamonde's attack on Hyjal should be considered a massive plot hole.

Tyrande actually does mention both Ysera and Alexstrasza about healing Nordrassil in WC3, but she gets cut off before finishing her thought.

Actually when you take all this into consideration, it becomes clear the Eternal Ones & First Ones seem to be trying to recreate what Metzen did with the original origin myth before WoW made the Titans' lore pedestrian: A more mysterious creator after they took away the mystery of the Titans.

Yeah, but it feels weird and rushed. First time I came across Titan lore was in Uldaman back in the day and I was fascinated reading the discs. Didn't feel the same when we were introduced to the concept of the First Ones.

[Nerdslime]

Imagine if Elune is a worldsoul that defied Aman'Thul and is now chilling inside the moon.

Like, a nice auntie looking out for Azeroth to ensure she remains free.

Elunaria might be her homeworld, which she was able to leave.

This sounds very plausible.