The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Golden Yak]

Given how difficult it was for them to get to Hallowfall, i don't think an invasion in either direction makes a whole lot of sense. There's no good way of getting significant forces from either continent to the other.

It was difficult to get across the Maelstrom too, or to Pandaria, or to the Dragon Isles. Until it wasn't.

[Xilurm]

A lot of cool ideas so far. Keep 'em coming!

A pirate adventure involving the Nightsquall leading up to travelling west sounds fun!

Dynamic ship travel let's fucking goooooooo. Sly 3 did it 15 years ago. Black Flag perfected it. Time for WoW to steal it.

[Limayria]

For funsies: what themes do you think we've yet to fully experience in WoW?

In the past, we used to bring up the Dragon Isles, Undermine, the Emerald Dream, etc. as potential expansion settings. But most of it has been done at this point!

Here are some that I'd like to see, either as full expansions or simply as new zones:

• Into the Great Dark Beyond. Sure, why not? Let's planet-hop a bit aboard draenei interdimensional ships. See Argus again, K'aresh, and maybe a couple of new places. It would be difficult to not make it feel very fragmented and stuff. So maybe in the future if they start doing short expansions. A return of the Burning Legion?

I think the pieces are all there for this to be really compelling, fixing up tempest keep, the illidari working on getting their ship working 100%, repairing the exodar and the vindicar (which i think is totally fine? not 100% on its status) + the whole "whats the status quo after tlt gonna look like" i think we're gonna learn that Azeorth and mortals are supposed to be gurdians of the matieral plane keeping everything balanced and preventing any force from causing the universe to enter a death spiral, and us taking it upon ourselves to try and undo some of the damage the legion did planning to slowly spread across the great dark and try to heal the worlds burned by the legions crusade, the last pieces for this really coming together would be forging a relationship with the etherals which im fairly sure will happen in midnight (i think this should be a thing the illidari do, potenitally while resettling onto outland) to try and get their biodome tech, I could also see this being when our trip to K'aresh happens with the etherals giving us the tech to test on draenor in return for us agreeing to help them claw back what remains of their home from the void to begin the long process of healing it, probably with the aid of druids and shaman and maybe the dragons? could easily see this being a place sylavnus shows back up in as well seeing it as part of her penance to try and nurture new life

Given how difficult it was for them to get to Hallowfall, i don't think an invasion in either direction makes a whole lot of sense. There's no good way of getting significant forces from either continent to the other.

I have a crack theory that the hallowfall expedition was actually flung forward in time as well so the actual gap between them leaving and today is larger than they realize. I also hope that once we actually get to wherever the Arathi are now theyre based off a post ww2 style America, with a big focus on a paranoid intelligence apparatus and playing into the lore of like, humans being created by aliens and genetic manipulation by eldritch horrors (that are separate from the alien robots that created them originally) give me wow mj12 + having a large population of Elves native to Avalaorn (or whereever they end up) who were evolved by the sacred flame/azerite like how the nightelves were evolved by the WoE, could have the Arathi even having a secret titan forged facility they found and are keeping secret as the truth of where humans came from would undermine the mythology that has grown about the Arathi emperors, with the current emperor having to fight against the WoW CIA/MJ12 to not be cut out of the discoveries

[Black Rider]

Dynamic ship travel let's fucking goooooooo. Sly 3 did it 15 years ago. Black Flag perfected it. Time for WoW to steal it.

Black Flag model would be more than awesome!
BTW Sea of Thieves has good one too

[Osmeric]

Could be interesting!

Although, I think one lesson learned in Shadowlands is to never go full cosmic.

There was a point when the comic book industry discovered the same thing. I think it was the 1970s?

[FossilFree]

Could be interesting!

Although, I think one lesson learned in Shadowlands is to never go full cosmic. Pretty much all expansions touched on cosmic lore to some degree, but there seems to be a concensus that people still want Azeroth to be prominent.

You know, mountains, rivers, lakes, forests, deserts, jungles, towns and villages, etc.

I don't think you can call Shadowlands cosmic. Sure, in a purely technical sense of the powers chart maybe, but thematically it has nothing to do with space. The theme is halloween x1000, not outer space.

[huth]

I don't think you can call Shadowlands cosmic. Sure, in a purely technical sense of the powers chart maybe, but thematically it has nothing to do with space. The theme is halloween x1000, not outer space.

Cosmic doesn't generally mean space exploration.

- - - Updated - - -

Black Flag model would be more than awesome!
BTW Sea of Thieves has good one too

As long as they don't go to far after that anyway. Certainly not recent "quadruple" A pirate titles.

[Raetary]

I don't think you can call Shadowlands cosmic. Sure, in a purely technical sense of the powers chart maybe, but thematically it has nothing to do with space. The theme is halloween x1000, not outer space.

"Cosmic" does not just mean outer space exploration, it describes something vast and related to the wider universe, as opposed to something local and earthly.

Shadowlands' main theme is the mechanisms of life beyond death, which is as cosmic as you can get.

[Cheezits]

Shadowlands setting was poor because the idea of an expansion where Azeroth barely matters isn't a great idea. The idea was to show how insignificant we are in the greater universe of extended setting Warcraft: not exactly palatable with some people. Also bad story doesn't help.

If it was set in four-five afterlife pocket realms DIRECTLY connected to Azeroth, that would've done a lot better imo. We could get a glimpse of the greater Shadowlands in a raid or a patch zone instead of being stuck in a land almost completely disconnected from Azeroth and its races.

[Joshuaj]

I don't think you can call Shadowlands cosmic. Sure, in a purely technical sense of the powers chart maybe, but thematically it has nothing to do with space. The theme is halloween x1000, not outer space.

Cosmic in WoW doesn't just mean outer space. It quite literally involves anything that's off world, transcends dimensional boundaries, and/or involves the functionalities of the verses cosmology, which SL does all three.

SL is about the afterlife, the realm of one of the 6 higher forces that shape the Warcraft universe. It is, by definition, cosmic.

- - - Updated - - -

Heck, SL goes DEEP in the cosmology as well, as it has us not only explore the mechanisms of Death and the true nature of the Jailer, but it also has us learn about the powers that be, as well as one of the workshops and machines they created within the universal ether (This workshop being the Death Realm's very origin point, and the machine being located within the cosmic patterns very heart AKA the original fractal where all 6 forces originated btw).

- - - Updated - - -

Shadowlands setting was poor because the idea of an expansion where Azeroth barely matters isn't a great idea. The idea was to show how insignificant we are in the greater universe of extended setting Warcraft: not exactly palatable with some people. Also bad story doesn't help.

If it was set in four-five afterlife pocket realms DIRECTLY connected to Azeroth, that would've done a lot better imo. We could get a glimpse of the greater Shadowlands in a raid or a patch zone instead of being stuck in a land almost completely disconnected from Azeroth and its races.

It's funny, cause SL actually goes out of its way to state the total opposite of what you said regarding Azeroth's significance.

The covenant realms don't need to be connected to Azeroth. This is the Warcraft afterlife, it's okay for things to expand beyond our world. Doesn't change the fact that Azeroth is clearly still important however.

[FossilFree]

Cosmic in WoW doesn't just mean outer space. It quite literally involves anything that's off world, transcends dimensional boundaries, and/or involves the functionalities of the verses cosmology, which SL does all three.

SL is about the afterlife, the realm of one of the 6 higher forces that shape the Warcraft universe. It is, by definition, cosmic.

- - - Updated - - -

Heck, SL goes DEEP in the cosmology as well, as it has us not only explore the mechanisms of Death and the true nature of the Jailer, but it also has us learn about the powers that be, as well as one of the workshops and machines they created within the universal ether (This workshop being the Death Realm's very origin point, and the machine being located within the cosmic patterns very heart AKA the original fractal where all 6 forces originated btw).

- - - Updated - - -

I understand the technical in-universe WoW explanation for "cosmic." That's why I put technically in there. However, if you step back and analyze the big picture, it's clear that the original meaning of cosmic and cosmos is not being thematically shown in Shadowlands. Cosmology is the study of outer space, and heaven and hell have fuck all to do with outer space. All the technicalities in the world aren't going to make the aesthetics of SL into something cosmic.

Legion is cosmic. SL is halloween, death metal, pumpkins, and bat wings. Simple as that.

[Cheezits]

The covenant realms don't need to be connected to Azeroth. This is the Warcraft afterlife, it's okay for things to expand beyond our world. Doesn't change the fact that Azeroth is clearly still important however.

Conceptually and on paper I would agree, but I think the response from the fanbase shows that it doesn't work for this series. Even the prior craziest expansions, TBC and Mists, were based heavily on concepts and races that already existed in Warcraft 1-WOW. Mists was a real gamble and still a lot of casual fans did not like it as it felt too "random", to this day even, despite it tying heavily to wild gods, titans and old gods.

They TRIED with SL- each zone is based off something that appears in Warcraft: Spirit Healers/Valkyr, the Scourge/Cult of the Damned, Elune/Faeries, Nathrezim. But in each case the lore reason they are like that is that THEY came first, meaning they really aren't those things at all (to the point that the Nathrezim connection is a fucking patch reveal when it should've been at launch) and it feels alien and disconnected. Its not World of Warcraft at that point, its Universe of Warcraft, because barely any of those things besides the Cult and the Nathrezim played into the events of WC.

[Joshuaj]

I think SLs TRUE issue as a setting is something a lot of people aren't saying, but are very much thinking. And it's not that it isn't JUST connected to Azeroth or anything, as universal settings like the afterlife can clearly work setting wise.

It's that the Shadowlands as shown in the expac HASN'T BEEN PROPERLY BUILT UP AT ALL PRIOR!

Throughout WoW, we've been told that the Shadowlands were nightmarish realms of decay, we've been told that it was the spirit realm, Dave Kosak originally wrote the Shadowlands as a Deathly reflection of Azeroth, etc. Heck, in the game, we've been to the "Shadowlands" on multiple occasions, from Death Knights entering there in Wrath, to us going there in BFA, to us going there whenever we die basically.

It was never implied prior to SL as being a place of infinite afterlives (these afterlives basically being made up of anything you imagine an afterlife to be, really, from personal paradise realms to bad realms, to religious or spiritual realms, etc), and that's what gets people so confused, so out of tuned from the expac. That, combined with the poor narrative choices of the expac and the clear lack of a proper blueprint to build the story and content forward, combined with questionable game design choices, and you have the makings of an expansion that, sadly, was never going to succeed.

The lack of Azeroth wasn't the problem for me, as I'm a fan of going off-world, so long as Azeroth holds some importance still throughout (which is what SL did, funny enough). The problem was that there wasn't any build up to the afterlife we now know about.

Seems Blizzard is rectifying that with 10.2 building up the Life Realm more, the Worldsoul Saga expanding upon Light and Shadow's rivalry, and the Worldsoul Saga expanding upon not just the Pantheon of Order's true intentions for Azeroth, but the Prime Worldsouls true nature entire.

- - - Updated - - -

Conceptually and on paper I would agree, but I think the response from the fanbase shows that it doesn't work for this series. Even the prior craziest expansions, TBC and Mists, were based heavily on concepts and races that already existed in Warcraft 1-WOW. Mists was a real gamble and still a lot of casual fans did not like it as it felt too "random", to this day even, despite it tying heavily to wild gods, titans and old gods.

They TRIED with SL- each zone is based off something that appears in Warcraft: Spirit Healers/Valkyr, the Scourge/Cult of the Damned, Elune/Faeries, Nathrezim. But in each case the lore reason they are like that is that THEY came first, meaning they really aren't those things at all (to the point that the Nathrezim connection is a fucking patch reveal when it should've been at launch) and it feels alien and disconnected. Its not World of Warcraft at that point, its Universe of Warcraft, because barely any of those things besides the Cult and the Nathrezim played into the events of WC.

Kinda doesn't help that the Shadowlands stuff makes the Legion seem more incompetent than they already are lol.

But a lot of these things existing before the things we see on Azeroth can work. No need to assume there's no clear connection there, as there very much is. And while the focus has expanded on the universe entire, SL has made it very clear that the world of Azeroth is still important. Heck, Azeroth is quite literally the Jailer's final prize, the thing he's trying to claim throughout the expac.

New and different is fine imo, a lot of fans may or may not like it, but I'm not them. But it needs to be built up properly first. And, as I've said before, SLs biggest issue in all of these, with the Necrolords, the First Ones, etc, is that none of it had any build up. There wasn't anything to imply these things existed, because prior to DF and the Worldsoul Saga, Blizzard didn't think so far ahead in their stories.

Now, they do, and I bet they feel much better as a result.

[Cheezits]

I think it's cool, but also insanely telling, that they have introduced ways for both Nzoth and now Kel Thuzad to return. They are aware how badly they fumbled both characters.

[Joshuaj]

I think it's cool, but also insanely telling, that they have introduced ways for both Nzoth and now Kel Thuzad to return. They are aware how badly they fumbled both characters.

Tbf here, the way they re-introduced those characters is fine, and it doesn't diminish their deaths in any way. This is how they should handle legacy characters lol.

Heck, of all the issues I had with SLs narrative, how they handled Arthas WASN'T one of them. Bro was an evil monster, and got what he deserved. Fuck that guy.

Sylvanas having the final say while he evaporates on the other hand? Yeah nah that was stupid.

[Cheezits]

Tbf here, the way they re-introduced those characters is fine, and it doesn't diminish their deaths in any way. This is how they should handle legacy characters lol.

Heck, of all the issues I had with SLs narrative, how they handled Arthas WASN'T one of them. Bro was an evil monster, and got what he deserved. Fuck that guy.

Sylvanas having the final say while he evaporates on the other hand? Yeah nah that was stupid.

I think the TWS intro is a hint that Arthas still lives on in Anduin.

[Joshuaj]

I think the TWS intro is a hint that Arthas still lives on in Anduin.

Always felt that was just Anduin having a PTSD attack post-domination. Reminder that the magic is terrifying as it is. Imagine being forced into being what is essentially the Devil's puppet for lord knows how long (since time means nothing in the Shadowlands, and the Jailer can very much make these things last for however long he wishes). That would break any man. The fact it still haunted Anduin 3-4 years after the ordeal is insane. Kinda shocked he was able to sort of bounce back the way he did this expac.

- - - Updated - - -

Luckily for Anduin, Death isn't a stronger power than Light (nor vice versa), and I think he knows that now, especially within areas where the Light is strongest.

[Ersula]

I understand the technical in-universe WoW explanation for "cosmic." That's why I put technically in there. However, if you step back and analyze the big picture, it's clear that the original meaning of cosmic and cosmos is not being thematically shown in Shadowlands. Cosmology is the study of outer space, and heaven and hell have fuck all to do with outer space. All the technicalities in the world aren't going to make the aesthetics of SL into something cosmic.

Legion is cosmic. SL is halloween, death metal, pumpkins, and bat wings. Simple as that.

When the devs talk about Cosmic, they're usually talking in the way the devs, at least until the Worldsoul Saga, they would alternate between Cosmic & Martial themes in for expansions. Basically in other words, they mean material versus immaterial. Martial themes are homesteads, building, crafting, ground warfare, wilderness, survival etc. Cosmic is space, but also spirituality, emotions, planes of existence.

By the devs own definitions, BC, Cataclysm, WoD, BFA and Dragonflight are martial. Wrath, MoP, Legion & Shadowlands are Cosmic.

[Joshuaj]

I understand the technical in-universe WoW explanation for "cosmic." That's why I put technically in there. However, if you step back and analyze the big picture, it's clear that the original meaning of cosmic and cosmos is not being thematically shown in Shadowlands. Cosmology is the study of outer space, and heaven and hell have fuck all to do with outer space. All the technicalities in the world aren't going to make the aesthetics of SL into something cosmic.

Legion is cosmic. SL is halloween, death metal, pumpkins, and bat wings. Simple as that.

Fictional cosmologies =/= real life cosmology.

[Ersula]

Shadowlands setting was poor because the idea of an expansion where Azeroth barely matters isn't a great idea. The idea was to show how insignificant we are in the greater universe of extended setting Warcraft: not exactly palatable with some people. Also bad story doesn't help.

If it was set in four-five afterlife pocket realms DIRECTLY connected to Azeroth, that would've done a lot better imo. We could get a glimpse of the greater Shadowlands in a raid or a patch zone instead of being stuck in a land almost completely disconnected from Azeroth and its races.

The Shadowlands setting was great, the problem was more the writing & mechanics it introduced. I'm hoping Metzen being in charge means less focus on Azeroth. I don't think metzen ever intended Azeroth to be the central figure in the franchise, considering the lore at the very beginning directly involved conflict between 3 different planets.