The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Sondrelk]

I think SLs TRUE issue as a setting is something a lot of people aren't saying, but are very much thinking. And it's not that it isn't JUST connected to Azeroth or anything, as universal settings like the afterlife can clearly work setting wise.

It's that the Shadowlands as shown in the expac HASN'T BEEN PROPERLY BUILT UP AT ALL PRIOR!

The problem for me was always that while stuff like SL sounds fine in practice, you cannot really imagine how the expansion will feel nine months in when you are halfway done with the first main patch and all the initial goodwill of the novelty of the setting has burned out.

By the time you get far enough into the expansion you need to start considering how to make the new content exciting to players beyond just more stuff. And in WoW the proven way to make stuff excitikg is to look at whether the players want something new, or something nostalgic.
SL was already extremely new, so players were starved for something nostalgic. Which SL couldn't really offer without leaving the Shadowlands altogether.

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The Shadowlands setting was great, the problem was more the writing & mechanics it introduced. I'm hoping Metzen being in charge means less focus on Azeroth. I don't think metzen ever intended Azeroth to be the central figure in the franchise, considering the lore at the very beginning directly involved conflict between 3 different planets.

It was great. Just not for two entire years of sitting around. Once the initial novelty wears off you need something to keep players excited. And since the setting of SL was so poorly set up prior, there wasn't really anything to speculate about, beyond basic stuff like whether Arthas would return.

[Joshuaj]

The problem for me was always that while stuff like SL sounds fine in practice, you cannot really imagine how the expansion will feel nine months in when you are halfway done with the first main patch and all the initial goodwill of the novelty of the setting has burned out.

By the time you get far enough into the expansion you need to start considering how to make the new content exciting to players beyond just more stuff. And in WoW the proven way to make stuff excitikg is to look at whether the players want something new, or something nostalgic.
SL was already extremely new, so players were starved for something nostalgic. Which SL couldn't really offer without leaving the Shadowlands altogether.

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It was great. Just not for two entire years of sitting around. Once the initial novelty wears off you need something to keep players excited. And since the setting of SL was so poorly set up prior, there wasn't really anything to speculate about, beyond basic stuff like whether Arthas would return.

I get that, but there is such a thing as TOO much nostalgia, ya know?

I prefer going off world, so long as the story and content are good.

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And tbf here, your logic does kinda apply to every expansion area. 2 years Underground? On the Dragon Isles? At the Broken Isles? Any setting can cause a rift like that in the playerbase, Azeroth or otherwise.

[Khaza-R]

I think the TWS intro is a hint that Arthas still lives on in Anduin.

I doubt that. But I do think that was a storyline they concluded too quickly.

It should of lasted beyond the Shadowlands. And Anduin battling a remanent of Arthas could of being interesting. Certainly moreso than Sylvanas being involved at least.

[Sondrelk]

I get that, but there is such a thing as TOO much nostalgia, ya know?

I prefer going off world, so long as the story and content are good.

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And tbf here, your logic does kinda apply to every expansion area. 2 years Underground? On the Dragon Isles? At the Broken Isles? Any setting can cause a rift like that in the playerbase, Azeroth or otherwise.

Too much of one thing is definitely bad, not disagreeing there. My point ism ore so that starting with a premise that is exciting because it's new can cause problems when you inevitably need to balance the scales a bit with nostalgia.

Best case scenario is obviously areas that combine nostalgia with bring entirely new. Expansions like BfA, Legion, or even going back to expansions like WotLK. Heavily banking on nostalgia, but also completely new.
Problem is there isn't really any of those left.

It's easier I think to bank on nostalgia to begin with, and then go further into new and exciting later in the expansion.
It's why I think it's better if Midnight is Northern EK, going into heavy void themes later. Or why I was heavily championing making SL a Northrend revamp back on the day.


No expansion will ever be fully accepted by all the player base though, that is true.

[huth]

I understand the technical in-universe WoW explanation for "cosmic." That's why I put technically in there. However, if you step back and analyze the big picture, it's clear that the original meaning of cosmic and cosmos is not being thematically shown in Shadowlands. Cosmology is the study of outer space, and heaven and hell have fuck all to do with outer space. All the technicalities in the world aren't going to make the aesthetics of SL into something cosmic.

Legion is cosmic. SL is halloween, death metal, pumpkins, and bat wings. Simple as that.

What we're talking about here is religious/mythological cosmology, not scientific cosmology (and astronomical cosmology is not the study of outer space, either. That's Astrophysics). Which predates the scientific meaning by millenia, at that.

So you actually got that backwards. Legion is cosmic, yes, but not because it involves space. But so is SL.

[Cheezits]

Anybody super excited for 11.1 in this thread, despite the Tinker no-show (thus far)? Would be interesting to hear a different POV.

I am FAR more interested in 11.1 than 11.2, as the Haranir are just okay to me as a concept (Troll/Nelf mix defending life is neat, but it's been done before plenty, just not combined) and I'm sure the Rootlands and Worldcore will not be crazily distinct ideas compared to things we've seen before (especially in Dragonflight- it will probably be straight up half and half Tyrhold and Dream).

Undermine is something I've wanted to see explored since Cata rehauled the Goblin aesthetic (one of the few things I liked about Cata) and this looks like a perfect continuation, hell it could've been released right after Cata with shittier graphics and it would probably look similar. This is very much an expansion-agnostic patch and I'm very happy to see Undermine, especially in an OC-island expansion that, despite being a very good expansion, still makes me misses EK/Kalimdor and the races within them.

11.2 will definitely be Earthen and Haranir teaming up to fight Xal, probably with druids for both of them, and that's a good call storywise. I just don't care about either nearly as much as I do Goblins. And it seems that they are putting the Nerubian story on halt until TLT, sadly, so my favorite race of TWW will likely not get a storyline continuation for years.

I'm only worried that Undermine won't be very big, which is likely why it's car-only besides forcing people to experiment with the new tech. It's the kind of lore zone that deserves proper treatment.

[Teriz]

Anybody super excited for 11.1 in this thread, despite the Tinker no-show (thus far)? Would be interesting to hear a different POV.

Obviously I'm very excited about finally getting to explore Undermine and delve a bit more into Goblin-centered lore. I'm especially interested in working with various cartels around Undermine and see exactly what kind of underhanded stuff they have me doing.

I'm also hoping that Undermine is a huge zone. If they're planning to have us race around it, I'm assuming it's going to be pretty big. I have a feeling they're going to use Zaralek tech and allow us to venture above ground to Kezan at will.

[Cheezits]

Interesting... per Portergauge's review of the new Isles book on Bluesky, they (Lor and Thal) note that something is going on in Neltharion's Lair, but don't comment.

Related to the Dark Heart/Goblin/Dragon Soul lore, maybe? Or Iridikron?

Also it ends on a tease of Tel'Abim! "The Island of Islands"

[Eldryth]

Also it ends on a tease of Tel'Abim! "The Island of Islands"

The tease in question:



Seems like Tel'abim ended up being a tropical resort island. So much for the speculation that it would eventually be introduced as an Arabian-themed setting, though personally I've always hoped that they'd focus on Ethereals with that kind of theme anyway.

If they're taking this route with Tel'Abim, maybe it'll be added as a just-for-fun area in a minor patch- something like a permanent Darkmoon Faire or FFXIV's Gold Saucer?

[OCoyne]

I think it's cool, but also insanely telling, that they have introduced ways for both Nzoth and now Kel Thuzad to return. They are aware how badly they fumbled both characters.

But I got told on here they wasn't retconning SL lore. More proof that they fully intend on doing that.

There's literally zero reason for KT to ever make an appearance when his phylactery has been destroyed twice now, once in the mortal realm and once in the afterlife. But as I've said before 90% of the events of SL just didn't happen in the writers eyes because of how bad the era went.

The Maldraxxus stuff was fine but there was zero common sense for KT and Sylvanas to be alinged with each other just 2 rooms apart
"Oh so you're the reason why Arthas invaded my homeland and then saved his ass when I ambushed him later on"

[AOL Instant Messenger]

re: cosmic themes, I think people have a habit of demonizing high-concept fantasy when it's not the fault of high-concept fantasy that most of WoW's "recent" (by which I mean since ~2015) attempts at going high-concept have sucked. High-concept fantasy was handled fine in WCIII, TBC, and even in places in the RPG—and this handling did include going away from Azeroth. The reason why Shadowlands sucked balls was because it retroactively changed the already-established afterlife mechanics of the setting for the dramatically worse and because it was somehow finding ways to butcher the already-objectionable Chronicles chart. The cosmology of the setting as it currently exists is awful not because it's taking us away from Azeroth but because it's one-dimensional and generic and every cosmic force has little to it beyond its color and catchphrase.

[Merryck]

The cosmic themes are my favourite part of Warcraft lore. That's why Argus, particularly Eredath, is one of my favourite zones. Legion and Chronicles set up a truly epic cosmos but ... it makes me depressed thinking about the state it is in now.

[milkmustache]

The cosmic themes are my favourite part of Warcraft lore. That's why Argus, particularly Eredath, is one of my favourite zones. Legion and Chronicles set up a truly epic cosmos but ... it makes me depressed thinking about the state it is in now.

Hm... I've always interpreted cosmics =/= cosmology. Draenei, Legion, Argus and general planetary themes have been approached far different than the Shadowlands progenitor stories. The first obviously stuck the landing far better than the second.

[Foolicious]

Interesting... per Portergauge's review of the new Isles book on Bluesky, they (Lor and Thal) note that something is going on in Neltharion's Lair, but don't comment.

Related to the Dark Heart/Goblin/Dragon Soul lore, maybe? Or Iridikron?

Could be dark heart related in some way. Not sure if its ever mentioned where the dragon soul was forged, but it would make sense that it was there.
There was also something "evil" in this caves before neltharion made them his home. Maybe some part of an old god, or a sleeping void thing like in zul'aman that starts to waken?

[Enrif]

While I'd love an evergreen vacation paradise, to me this could just as well be a sunny facade with Old God corruption lurking behind every bend.

It'd be fun to go there and discover something dark in its jungles.

What if Tel'Abim is the happy and bright version of the darkmoon faire?

[huth]

While I'd love an evergreen vacation paradise, to me this could just as well be a sunny facade with Old God corruption lurking behind every bend.

It'd be fun to go there and discover something dark in its jungles.

It could also be a small resort on a much larger island.

[Nymrohd]

I still think SL wouldn't be nearly as maligned if the content schedule and parts of the gameplay did not suck. Zereth Mortis was the most cosmic part of it yet the reception was decent because the gameplay was ok.

[Cheezits]

But I got told on here they wasn't retconning SL lore. More proof that they fully intend on doing that.

There's literally zero reason for KT to ever make an appearance when his phylactery has been destroyed twice now, once in the mortal realm and once in the afterlife. But as I've said before 90% of the events of SL just didn't happen in the writers eyes because of how bad the era went.

The Maldraxxus stuff was fine but there was zero common sense for KT and Sylvanas to be alinged with each other just 2 rooms apart
"Oh so you're the reason why Arthas invaded my homeland and then saved his ass when I ambushed him later on"

It's a spoiler but there is a newly introduced way for KT to be brought back, through a quest in 11.0.07 involving the Kirin Tor discovering a necklace with a copy of him, pre-Lich, still inside and doing experiments. And he goes away at the end

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It could also be a small resort on a much larger island.

The fact that there are dancing "octo"something that gets cut off makes me think there is more going on. Could be friendly Kthir even.

[Teriz]

I also like the idea of finally going there after all these years. It's just that the goblin aesthetic isn't fot me. More of a Gnome guy, and even then I wasn't even super into Mechagon.

I think you might see a Gnome district of some type in Undermine. There definitely should be some Gnomes down there.

I also wonder if they're going to open up Kezan and Crappolis to add to the overall zone. I'm willing to bet they will. They did show an updated Kezan in the 11.1 preview.

[Ersula]

It's a spoiler but there is a newly introduced way for KT to be brought back, through a quest in 11.0.07 involving the Kirin Tor discovering a necklace with a copy of him, pre-Lich, still inside and doing experiments. And he goes away at the end

Right. If anything the new storyline is an homage to Acereak from DnD. He was permanently killed, but a simulacrum of him went on to create a countless number of copies throughout the multiverse.

Also its clear the Tel'abim ad is more of a joke than a hint for future content. "The Island of Islands" is a very intentionally stupid tagline.

I think you might see a Gnome district of some type in Undermine. There definitely should be some Gnomes down there.

Why? They emphatically dislike each other.