The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Don't they say that about every mega dungeon? "A raid for 5 people". Maybe if you do it at 390 ilevel, but im pretty sure it will get steamrolled as the other dungeons until it releases as m+.

There's always gonna be people that steamroll it. The core playerbase will enjoy it for what it is.


This post may age after my feelings on the megadungeon.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

I wasn't doing Megadungeons on release as mythic, but this one i have too for a chance at gorehowl.

I hope it won't be impossible to beat and people in the middle of dungeon won't change mind that they want to restart whole dungeon because someone died and that they want the achievement..

[Sondrelk]

I wasn't doing Megadungeons on release as mythic, but this one i have too for a chance at gorehowl.

I hope it won't be impossible to beat and people in the middle of dungeon won't change mind that they want to restart whole dungeon because someone died and that they want the achievement..

Usually the way the achievement works is that only the first attempt each week counts. So of someone dies then that is is for the week.

[Berkilak]

Easy mode is HC coming in 10.1.7.

That’s Heroic.

It’s okay to be wrong.

All mega dungeons have had a Mythic hard mode until this point. This one does not. It’s a simple mistake to make.

[huth]

That’s Heroic.

It’s okay to be wrong.

All mega dungeons have had a Mythic hard mode until this point. This one does not. It’s a simple mistake to make.

Which is literally an easier version of the instance. I.e. an Easy Mode.

[Berkilak]

Which is literally an easier version of the instance. I.e. an Easy Mode.

Attempting to be technically correct is not the same thing as being correct. You wouldn’t put a tomato in fruit salad.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Hard mode implies the existence of an easy mode. There is no easy mode. Ergo, there is no hard mode.

Which is literally an easier version of the instance. I.e. an Easy Mode.

I don't see any constructiveness in splitting hairs over semantics.

[huth]

Attempting to be technically correct is not the same thing as being correct. You wouldn’t put a tomato in fruit salad.

Of course i would. I don't like fruit salad or people who eat it.

And there are easy modes. The easy mode does not have to be for the same instance for the concept to be understood.

[Khaza-R]

If I'm not being stupid, this is the first time the megadungeon has been revealed so early, isn't it?

No way. Return to Karazhan was released less than 2 months after the expansion launched.

[Santandame]

No way. Return to Karazhan was released less than 2 months after the expansion launched.

Tazavesh was also in 9.1.

Mechagon was released 10 months after BfA. This mega dungeon 9 months(?) after DF launch. There’s no real difference.

[Berkilak]

I don't see any constructiveness in splitting hairs over semantics.

It's not semantics on my part. "Hard mode" in mega dungeons refers to an optional mechanic within the default Mythic difficulty that increases the difficulty and rewards of the dungeon. It has been present since the revamped Karazhan. And the developers mentioned it was not present with the newest mega dungeon. End of story. If he wants to be wrong just because he thinks he can take a specific term out of context and use it literally, devoid of the intended meaning, I'm going to call that out. He can be wrong.

[Skytotem]

My mistake.

https://www.wowhead.com/news/rewritt...traszas-333679

Alexstrasza's quest on the PTR has been rewritten, we'll help her escape from it instead even if for me, we miss all the drama and the motivations of the infinite dragons.

There are better ways to show infinite motivations than with having the player help keep Alexstraza trapped, given how messed up that bit of lore is it's better not to be involved.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Alexstrasza's quest on the PTR has been rewritten, we'll help her escape from it instead even if for me, we miss all the drama and the motivations of the infinite dragons.

I was rather concerned that Blizzard was going to walk away with the wrong understanding of this, willfully or unintentionally; I'm unsure what to make of this on that front. Whether they have the best of intentions or they really are just looking for a craven out from Twitter criticism, I was at least initially worried that they would just boil it down to "we acknowledged rape exists" instead of "we raped people in real life" and refuse entirely to touch dark plotlines with a 50-foot pole for the foreseeable future. Yet, they are at least acknowledging the event, yet only in a very roundabout and indirect way that may not substitute sufficiently unless you know the history behind the quest's alteration. I am hoping they'll touch a bit more on the bit about Alexstrasza's darker history and give her some character rather than throw this out there and never acknowledge it again. It also now fails to accomplish the original intention since it involves you being the great big hero who does a perfectly morally-good thing in your undertaking to preserve the timeways instead of showing how simultaneously horrible and banal the Bronze Dragonflight's charge is. I'm also very happy that they actually kept any variant of the quest to begin with, since that does at least mean that they're leaning further away from what I'm concerned about than I initially though they would, and that they may actually touch on Alexstrasza's history going forward.

As an aside, I'm also somewhat concerned about the professional security of the employee that wrote or designed the original quest. I could see them getting the sack to satiate Twitter's misguided sense of mob justice even if they were only some intern who didn't even think through the implications and just scrolled over Alexstrasza's Wowpedia page to get a general idea of some tragic event in her past they could use. I could see Blizzard's executives throwing the poor moron to the wolves, even though the actual moral fault lies with the executives as the people who coerced the victims and destroyed unions to begin with.

[Revamp Man]

That’s Heroic.

It’s okay to be wrong.

All mega dungeons have had a Mythic hard mode until this point. This one does not. It’s a simple mistake to make.

Kara didn't really have a hard mode just a timer

[Santandame]

It's not semantics on my part. "Hard mode" in mega dungeons refers to an optional mechanic within the default Mythic difficulty that increases the difficulty and rewards of the dungeon. It has been present since the revamped Karazhan. And the developers mentioned it was not present with the newest mega dungeon. End of story. If he wants to be wrong just because he thinks he can take a specific term out of context and use it literally, devoid of the intended meaning, I'm going to call that out. He can be wrong.

No point in engaging with Huth. The general posting pattern of theirs is if they aren’t being incredibly pedantic, then they’re posting to respond rather than to understand. I don’t understand it, it seems extremely tiring.

Either way, everyone else understood your message.

For those more in the know, how have Augmentation Evokers been performing on the PTR?

[Berkilak]

For those more in the know, how have Augmentation Evokers been performing on the PTR?

The numbers are there, but I fear the feel of the spec is headed in the wrong direction. It feels a lot worse to play now than it did when the PTR first went up. Having Ebon Might be more difficult to maintain and the Mastery affect a single target instead of two sabotage the flow of the class and fulfillment of the support fantasy.

They should have simply reduced the magnitude of these abilities rather than change the actual gameplay for the worse.

Add in the completely useless itemization with all stats sans Mastery being useless (and Mastery quickly heading into uselessness) and I can only report that they’re in rough shape.

The core fantasy is great. The fundamental playstyle is fun. But every iteration has made it feel just a little bit worse.

[Worldshaper]

Thinking back on Legion... it was so much better than Dragonflight in nearly every regard.

- Campaign was more rooted in traditional Warcraft lore, while Dragonflight still fumbles and tries to re-invent stuff like Shadowlands did.
- Clear villain in the form of the Legion and Sargeras, the Nightmare, etc., while Dragonflight sort of retreads Cataclysm except we don't know what anyone's end goals are.
- Lots of returning hero characters from the past like Khadgar, Illidan, etc., while Dragonflight barely has any except for the Aspects.
- You had clear personal goals and storylines to keep you engaged with Artifacts, Order Halls, etc., while Dragonflight barely has any character-specific content.
- Zones felt better and more iconic, like Highmountain, while Dragonflight sort of stumbles. Azure Span is beautiful but Dragonriding removes that immensity and immersion.

The returning talent trees is one of the few features DF does better than Legion, I think.

10.2 really needs to deliver, both in terms of lore and narrative, and offering players engaging and meaningful content.

[Santandame]

Thinking back on Legion... it was so much better than Dragonflight in nearly every regard.

- Campaign was more rooted in traditional Warcraft lore, while Dragonflight still fumbles and tries to re-invent stuff like Shadowlands did.
- Clear villain in the form of the Legion and Sargeras, the Nightmare, etc., while Dragonflight sort of retreads Cataclysm except we don't know what anyone's end goals are.
- Lots of returning hero characters from the past like Khadgar, Illidan, etc., while Dragonflight barely has any except for the Aspects.
- You had clear personal goals and storylines to keep you engaged with Artifacts, Order Halls, etc., while Dragonflight barely has any character-specific content.
- Zones felt better and more iconic, like Highmountain, while Dragonflight sort of stumbles. Azure Span is beautiful but Dragonriding removes that immensity and immersion.

The returning talent trees is one of the few features DF does better than Legion, I think.

10.2 really needs to deliver, both in terms of lore and narrative, and offering players engaging and meaningful content.

I agree with most of this, especially the point regarding the Dragon Isles. Don’t get me wrong, the zones are indeed gorgeous and a lot of fun, but they’re also just kind of there. They haven’t left a lasting impression and I likely won’t think much on them when we’re in future expansions.

They certainly don’t compare to the Broken Isles. Each zone there, especially Highmountain like you’ve mentioned, and Suramar too, have left a lasting impression. Peak zone design for me, a long with WoD.

Whilst Dragonflight belongs in the upper echelon of WoW expansions, it’s still below Legion, MoP and Wrath - at least for me.

Legion really was just a cut above the rest, and because of the circumstances such as the time it was current, the overall premise of the expansion, the content and Demon Hunters being added; I don’t think we’ll ever see anything of similar quality or stature replicated again within WoW sadly.

[Schwert]

I was rather concerned that Blizzard was going to walk away with the wrong understanding of this, willfully or unintentionally; I'm unsure what to make of this on that front. Whether they have the best of intentions or they really are just looking for a craven out from Twitter criticism, I was at least initially worried that they would just boil it down to "we acknowledged rape exists" instead of "we raped people in real life" and refuse entirely to touch dark plotlines with a 50-foot pole for the foreseeable future. Yet, they are at least acknowledging the event, yet only in a very roundabout and indirect way that may not substitute sufficiently unless you know the history behind the quest's alteration. I am hoping they'll touch a bit more on the bit about Alexstrasza's darker history and give her some character rather than throw this out there and never acknowledge it again. It also now fails to accomplish the original intention since it involves you being the great big hero who does a perfectly morally-good thing in your undertaking to preserve the timeways instead of showing how simultaneously horrible and banal the Bronze Dragonflight's charge is. I'm also very happy that they actually kept any variant of the quest to begin with, since that does at least mean that they're leaning further away from what I'm concerned about than I initially though they would, and that they may actually touch on Alexstrasza's history going forward.

As an aside, I'm also somewhat concerned about the professional security of the employee that wrote or designed the original quest. I could see them getting the sack to satiate Twitter's misguided sense of mob justice even if they were only some intern who didn't even think through the implications and just scrolled over Alexstrasza's Wowpedia page to get a general idea of some tragic event in her past they could use. I could see Blizzard's executives throwing the poor moron to the wolves, even though the actual moral fault lies with the executives as the people who coerced the victims and destroyed unions to begin with.

I'm actually concerned about this as well, and I'm a survivor of sexual assault myself.
The tone of the original quest was off, but it's an adult game and we're supposed to be adults and we can have dark senses of humour. "Don't tell Alex." got me a mild chuckle even though I thought the thing was screwed up, and frankly, I expect things to be screwed up in an IP based around war. I'm apparently not as pissed off as I "should be" over the quest's original iteration though, so I've flat out been told I condone the awful crap that's been done to me by people who seriously need to learn how people cope.

I'm just disappointed it was changed entirely.
People can talk as much as they want about wanting complex stories, but the moment it involves something dark, they demand it never happen and those wanting to explore those stories as condoning those things IRL, when it'd be nice for the quest to have been changed to acknowledge how awful things were, and lament that it had to happen because we cannot change the past. XIV does these sort of things, Yotsuyu being a fantastic example, but WoW just refuses to try.

But this is the company that thinks people being mad at their abusers are in the wrong, and we need to forgive the too as of the last couple years.
It's all feel good from here on out. No negative emotions allowed. And no actually exploring these concepts and how it actually impacts real people.

If people think the lore is messed up, I sincerely wonder why the hell they've been playing this game for last couple decades. It's always been there, and not all of us who deal with these things want it brushed under the rug. We want it addressed, and we can make a joke about it too.

- - - Updated - - -

Thinking back on Legion... it was so much better than Dragonflight in nearly every regard.

- Campaign was more rooted in traditional Warcraft lore, while Dragonflight still fumbles and tries to re-invent stuff like Shadowlands did.
- Clear villain in the form of the Legion and Sargeras, the Nightmare, etc., while Dragonflight sort of retreads Cataclysm except we don't know what anyone's end goals are.
- Lots of returning hero characters from the past like Khadgar, Illidan, etc., while Dragonflight barely has any except for the Aspects.
- You had clear personal goals and storylines to keep you engaged with Artifacts, Order Halls, etc., while Dragonflight barely has any character-specific content.
- Zones felt better and more iconic, like Highmountain, while Dragonflight sort of stumbles. Azure Span is beautiful but Dragonriding removes that immensity and immersion.

The returning talent trees is one of the few features DF does better than Legion, I think.

10.2 really needs to deliver, both in terms of lore and narrative, and offering players engaging and meaningful content.

Agreed.

Legion felt like Warcraft, and had every single element that made Warcraft feel like Warcraft in it, even when it wasn't a focus.
Just want to add the faction stuff was fantastic too. wPvP was at it's prime. Warden towers were, to this day, some of the most fun I've had in this game. Defending and making groups to actually take out people camping towers. The NPC banter kept the faction conflict vibe alive, even though it wasn't really there in story past the start. Don't need much to keep such a crucial part of the IP going, and that was near perfection.

Love the dropboxes and gearing they've done for wPvP in Dragonflight, but nothing beats objectives, and the rage people had when they realized they actually had to fight in the PvP areas.

Dragonflight just feels like a typical fantasy MMORPG for the most part. Not Warcraft.
I've been thinking about it for a while, but there's just so much stuff that has nothing to do with our characters and factions, it all feels disconnected. I'd care far more about this expansion if the NPC races were the actual player ones, and the world building we got - which was frankly actually pretty good, just something I can't care about - was invested into things we actually play and get invested in.

Also, still don't like how as an Alliance main in particular, I'm supposed to just be okay with working with the Horde again and it's all good? Like, no? This feels completely off base for this game? There's barely any tension, and I'm not expecting conflict during a peacetime expansion, but it just feels like this game was made for literal children now and there's none of that fun edge or rivalry that made things fun in the past.

[Worldshaper]

I agree with most of this, especially the point regarding the Dragon Isles. Don’t get me wrong, the zones are indeed gorgeous and a lot of fun, but they’re also just kind of there. They haven’t left a lasting impression and I likely won’t think much on them when we’re in future expansions.

They certainly don’t compare to the Broken Isles. Each zone there, especially Highmountain like you’ve mentioned, and Suramar too, have left a lasting impression. Peak zone design for me, a long with WoD.

Whilst Dragonflight belongs in the upper echelon of WoW expansions, it’s still below Legion, MoP and Wrath - at least for me.

Legion really was just a cut above the rest, and because of the circumstances such as the time it was current, the overall premise of the expansion, the content and Devon Hunters being added; I don’t think we’ll ever see anything of similar quality or stature replicated again within WoW sadly.

Yeah, I agree with this.

Different expansions will have their own upsides. I loved WoD for its music, zones, and (at least starting out) the Garrison. But overall the expansion came short.

Similarly, I love Dragonflight for giving us dragon and Titan lore again, for Dragonriding (although this has its downsides as well), for the talent trees, attempts to improve Reputations with Renown, transmog, and more class/race combos. But overall I'm just not having a lot of fun. There's not enough there to engage and entertain me. Not a whole lot of personal progression, interesting storylines, etc.

But like I said, 10.2 could change all that if they make the right moves.

- A zone which is pleasant to be in for once (Emerald Dream), hopefully with some cheerful casual world content involving nature stuff
- A resolution to the Teldrassil storyline with a new World Tree
- Night Elf and Undead Heritage armour
- Druids, Paladins or Shamans for more races
- A clear understanding of what's coming in the future and what Dragonflight's ultimate threat is
- Crafting fixed? (Unlikely)
- Bonus points if there are strong hints to a world revamp, but unlikely

- - - Updated - - -

Agreed.

Legion felt like Warcraft, and had every single element that made Warcraft feel like Warcraft in it, even when it wasn't a focus.
Just want to add the faction stuff was fantastic too. wPvP was at it's prime. Warden towers were, to this day, some of the most fun I've had in this game. Defending and making groups to actually take out people camping towers. The NPC banter kept the faction conflict vibe alive, even though it wasn't really there in story past the start. Don't need much to keep such a crucial part of the IP going, and that was near perfection.

Love the dropboxes and gearing they've done for wPvP in Dragonflight, but nothing beats objectives, and the rage people had when they realized they actually had to fight in the PvP areas.

Dragonflight just feels like a typical fantasy MMORPG for the most part. Not Warcraft.
I've been thinking about it for a while, but there's just so much stuff that has nothing to do with our characters and factions, it all feels disconnected. I'd care far more about this expansion if the NPC races were the actual player ones, and the world building we got - which was frankly actually pretty good, just something I can't care about - was invested into things we actually play and get invested in.

Also, still don't like how as an Alliance main in particular, I'm supposed to just be okay with working with the Horde again and it's all good? Like, no? This feels completely off base for this game? There's barely any tension, and I'm not expecting conflict during a peacetime expansion, but it just feels like this game was made for literal children now and there's none of that fun edge or rivalry that made things fun in the past.

You raise important points.

Dragonflight, technically, has a lot of classic fantasy stuff. In a sense, it is a return to form with a proper D&D setting.

The issue is just that they sort of kept much of the vague and cosmic storytelling from Shadowlands, since we never seem to be getting any resolutions or meaningful story progression, just more clues about the Titans, the Void, and so on. And they hyper-focused on dragons, which is like... one specific slice of old Warcraft lore, and one which was always rather one-dimensional as well. It works better to have an island populated 90% by the same species when it's a more interesting and culturally rich species, like the Pandaren. The dragons are literally just... dragons, with some extra flavour thrown in. They all sound and look mostly the same, and their individual storylines all tend to circle back to the same few topics:

- I lived here long ago, now I'm sad about the past
- Neltharion lived here long ago, now I'm sad about the past
- Some of us are traitors
- Gotta get empowered again, so solve all our problems for us please