The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Worldshaper]

Dragonflight also has Gnolls, Tuskarr, Titan stuff, the Emerald Dream and the Titan influenced stuff of it, etc. Hell, we also got some unique spiritual quests also which bring back the older roots of WoW. And this isn't even all the examples lol.

And the Incarnates want to bring Azeroth back to its Elemental Freedom? Without Old God, or Titan influence. This is quite literally explored in game by like...everyone ever lol.

Also, you do realize you can just use a Ground Mount then, yeah? Or If you want to wait a lil bit longer, you'll get regular flight back later on in the expac.

You sound really defensive about this stuff. Easy, there.

The fact that there are Gnolls, Tuskarr and Centaur is nice. But it's still 90% dragons. Most of the notable characters are dragons, most of the NPCs, guards, and even critters are either draconic or dragon-like. It's not bad per se, it's just not as down to earth or diverse as, say, Kalimdor or Eastern Kingdoms.

An additional problem is that most of this ties back to a few central themes, such as Tyr and the Titan lore surrounding him, the Primal Incarnates, the Dracthyr and Neltharion (including the Void), and so on. This is a step back towards normalcy from Shadowlands, which I appreciate. It is tangible. It's not just some "God did it" or "What is the nature of reality?" nonsense. But it's still not, y'know, Defias brotherhood attacking a village because they're upset with the Stormwind nobility, or some rogue Druid making a mess of a small cave somewhere in Feralas.

Exile's Reach did a great job at making a simple story pretty engaging without connecting it to the cosmos, all the while giving us a nice resolution. More of that, please.

As for the Primal Incarnates and their ultimate goals, I would argue few people know about what you just wrote. As soon as in May with the 10.1 trailer, I distinctly recalling people not feeling sure why they were going to Zarelek. The raid in 10.1 doesn't offer much in the way of closure, either.

Regarding your comments on using ground mounts, that's an old and rather poor argument to make. The zone and the flow of the quest content is designed with Dragonriding in mind. You probably technically can do much if not most of it by using regular mounts, but it won't feel like slowly ascending Kun-Lai Summit, as Blizzard haven't had to give much thought to the way in which the zone is presented to you.

[Santandame]

Dragonflight also has Gnolls, Tuskarr, Titan stuff, the Emerald Dream and the Titan influenced stuff of it, etc. Hell, we also got some unique spiritual quests also which bring back the older roots of WoW. And this isn't even all the examples lol.

And the Incarnates want to bring Azeroth back to its Elemental Freedom? Without Old God, or Titan influence. This is quite literally explored in game by like...everyone ever lol.

Also, you do realize you can just use a Ground Mount then, yeah? Or If you want to wait a lil bit longer, you'll get regular flight back later on in the expac.

That is pure assumption on your part. None of us know the end goal of the Incarnates, and each Incarnate seems to have different motivations - they aren’t on the same page.

Iridikron clearly has his own machinations going on, with an entirely different motive to the other Incarnates who he is clearly using and manipulating. We have no idea what he wants to achieve but the popular consensus amongst those discussing lore theories is that he is on a mission to consume the power of each of the cosmic forces.

Raszageth seemed to be operating purely on revenge due to her being imprisoned for all that time. We know at some point, that she and the other Incarnates opposed the rule of the titans during the War of the Scaleborn. However, after her escape from her prison on the Forbidden Reach, she seemed to be operating on freeing her fellow Incarnates whilst also seeking revenge on the Aspects.

Vyranoth seems to be the more “rational” of the Incarnates. It has been confirmed that at one point she opposed the War of the Scaleborn and sought to achieve a peaceful resolution. Though we know now that she wants revenge on the Aspects but still seems to be grappling with the loss of Razsageth but also seemingly her lost friendship with Alexstrasza.

Fyrakk is the wild card. Even before his absorption of shadowflame, he seemed extremely chaotic. It seems he just relishes in causing chaos and destruction wherever he goes.

No where in game has it been explained what the Incarnates are currently trying to achieve as of now. You can’t just pass up your speculation as fact and say that it exists in game - it doesn’t.

The only thing we’re certain of is that Iridikron is using the other Incarnates for his own nefarious ends.

[Worldshaper]

"I distinctly recalling people not feeling sure why they were going to Zarelek."

We quite literally know this both in the cinematic, and in the actual story tho. Fyrakk is going to absorb the ancient magics beneath the Cavern, and there are also some pacts that are meant to be fulfilled down there also (Which we would learn to be the Djaradin Elders and their pact with the Incarnates). They also clearly state that Aberrus would be used as a distraction for the Dracthyr and whatnot.

I'd argue the 10.1 launch trailer is extremely vague, especially if you're not keeping up with discussions online.

The Incarnates arrive somewhere (again) and mumble a bunch of obscurities. "Absorb the power, awaken the Elders, we've got shit to do elsewhere". Like, okay, we're about 1/3 through the expansion and we still don't know more about their ultimate goal other than they're doing some stuff here, doing some stuff over there, and then they'll do some more stuff later.

We didn't get closure by killing Razageth, because she basically just got replaced by even more Incarnates we knew we had to do something about (and we failed yet again), and then we didn't get closure by killing Sarkareth, because he just mumbled something about the Void and scene. To the point where people started imagining seeing eyes in the background and what not, just to find some meaning and story progression there.

Compare that to 7.0 when we, IIRC, killed Xavius and effectively ended the Emerald Nightmare, or 7.2 when we ended Kil'Jaeden and prevented the Legion from destroying Dalaran, and Argus appeared in the sky to reveal our next destination, etc. Seriously, go to YouTube right now and watch the trailers from that expansion. They're so story rich, and everything is easy to understand and follow along to.

[Sondrelk]

By the way, any news about Archaeology yet?

I was just watching this ambient video of Zuldazar on YouTube, and man what a zone. The density of the zone paired with the immersive weather effects and stellar music just knocks it out of the park, easily among my top 10 zones.

But that got me thinking, why the hell do we still not have any game features that send you to a few different legacy zones every day? Just something simple, like collect an old kind of herb or take a photo of a waterfall or something.

It would make soooooo much sense if the Dragonscale Expedition, along with all its quirky World Quest content, basically replaced Archaeology. It could simply send you to different old continents every day to do little fun chores, and you get some type of "Explorer Renown" or something. Some of the activities might involve treasure seeking and let you unearth ancient treasure, just like Archaeology. Some of it might give you additional lore which is entered into a book. Others may simply be for the fun of exploration.

Well for one we currently don't have Dragonriding in old zones, and depending on the expansion it's not even guaranteed that everyone even can fly.
Even assuming we had that though you would still potentially have to fly across the entirety of an old continent for just a handful of zones.

My guess would be that the developers assume (quite rightly in my opinion) that there is no point in sending players back to old zones repeatedly unless it's for a large amount of content, and its centered on a single zone.
So we would need a framework that says that say, Tirisfal is designated the endgame zone for a set period, and that all content of that type I'll take place in that zone, rotating to new ones at set intervals.

It sounds like this is a concept that is being considered for the improvements to Timewalking, which I think would be the best way to go about it.

[Worldshaper]

Well for one we currently don't have Dragonriding in old zones, and depending on the expansion it's not even guaranteed that everyone even can fly.
Even assuming we had that though you would still potentially have to fly across the entirety of an old continent for just a handful of zones.

My guess would be that the developers assume (quite rightly in my opinion) that there is no point in sending players back to old zones repeatedly unless it's for a large amount of content, and its centered on a single zone.
So we would need a framework that says that say, Tirisfal is designated the endgame zone for a set period, and that all content of that type I'll take place in that zone, rotating to new ones at set intervals.

It sounds like this is a concept that is being considered for the improvements to Timewalking, which I think would be the best way to go about it.

Why wouldn't it be good to send players back to old zones unless there's a lot of content to do? Surely, if they add enough little bits of content here and there, casual players will be happy. Something for everyone.

[Santandame]

I'd argue the 10.1 launch trailer is extremely vague, especially if you're not keeping up with discussions online.

The Incarnates arrive somewhere (again) and mumble a bunch of obscurities. "Absorb the power, awaken the Elders, we've got shit to do elsewhere". Like, okay, we're about 1/3 through the expansion and we still don't know more about their ultimate goal other than they're doing some stuff here, doing some stuff over there, and then they'll do some more stuff later.

We didn't get closure by killing Razageth, because she basically just got replaced by even more Incarnates we knew we had to do something about (and we failed yet again), and then we didn't get closure by killing Sarkareth, because he just mumbled something about the Void and scene. To the point where people started imagining seeing eyes in the background and what not, just to find some meaning and story progression there.

Compare that to 7.0 when we, IIRC, killed Xavius and effectively ended the Emerald Nightmare, or 7.2 when we ended Kil'Jaeden and prevented the Legion from destroying Dalaran, and Argus appeared in the sky to reveal our next destination, etc. Seriously, go to YouTube right now and watch the trailers from that expansion. They're so story rich, and everything is easy to understand and follow along to.

Not only that, but also the fact that it has been remarked that Iridikron fully embraced the war of dragonkind, rather than fully supporting the intitial stance the Incarnates took. In the process making dark bargains with god knows who as it hasn’t been revealed, receiving god knows what as it hasn’t been revealed, all with the aim of god knows what as this also hasn’t been revealed.

The only thing that’s been made clear to us about the Incarnates end goal is that each clearly has different motivations from the other, with Iridikron very clearly using the others for his own end goal.

@Cosmicpreds can respond with his aggressive, defensive replies all he wants. It doesn’t change the fact that nothing has been confirmed in game about the Incarnates end goal. We know that they initially opposed titan rule 20,000 years ago (and even then it’s implied pretty clearly that Iridikron had his own ulterior motivations for embracing the war of dragonkind). It’s pretty clear that each Incarnate is operating on completely different wavelengths from the other.

We can make educated guesses on where Iridikron’s story is leading, as well as potential ideas on Vyranoth’s future alignment. Yet none of that changes so far, we’ve received very little, if any resolution to the Incarnate storyline, with no true representation of where it is heading.

[Sondrelk]

Why wouldn't it be good to send players back to old zones unless there's a lot of content to do? Surely, if they add enough little bits of content here and there, casual players will be happy. Something for everyone.

Because it would feel quite tedious to go to a random zone like Kun-lai for a single quest. It requires either setting up a ton of portals, or have players remember how to get to the zones, some of which are quite old. How many Alliance players knows off the top of their head the quickest way to Vol'dun? Or have the patience to fly all the way from Jade Forest to Dread Wastes to complete a single climbing quest for 200g and 50 rep?

You want a large chunk of stuff in a single zone so that going to said zone feels rewarding. Spending more time in a single zone also builds up some appreciation for the zones when you inevitably don't have to go back to the same ones constantly.

It's great to reuse old zones, and honestly the devs should do it way more often. But you don't want players to feel like they are being jerked around by having to spend half their playtime on just travelling between zones each day.

[Paperfox]

I decided to run an old Legion raid for mogs, unfortunately I had forgotten how to get to the underwater zone. Lol, it's a portal in the portal room in Zul'Dazar.

[Worldshaper]

Because it would feel quite tedious to go to a random zone like Kun-lai for a single quest. It requires either setting up a ton of portals, or have players remember how to get to the zones, some of which are quite old. How many Alliance players knows off the top of their head the quickest way to Vol'dun? Or have the patience to fly all the way from Jade Forest to Dread Wastes to complete a single climbing quest for 200g and 50 rep?

You want a large chunk of stuff in a single zone so that going to said zone feels rewarding. Spending more time in a single zone also builds up some appreciation for the zones when you inevitably don't have to go back to the same ones constantly.

It's great to reuse old zones, and honestly the devs should do it way more often. But you don't want players to feel like they are being jerked around by having to spend half their playtime on just travelling between zones each day.

Missing the point imo. This content would be aimed at travellers. At players who want a reason to visit all their favourite old zones. It doesn't need to be efficient or streamlined. I'd be perfectly happy if there was some exotic marketplace in Valdrakken, and some NPC asked me to collect a flower somewhere in the forests of Ashenvale. If I did so, he'd reward me with some currency or whatever. Sounds delightful.

[Skildar]

Because it would feel quite tedious to go to a random zone like Kun-lai for a single quest. It requires either setting up a ton of portals, or have players remember how to get to the zones, some of which are quite old. How many Alliance players knows off the top of their head the quickest way to Vol'dun? Or have the patience to fly all the way from Jade Forest to Dread Wastes to complete a single climbing quest for 200g and 50 rep?

You want a large chunk of stuff in a single zone so that going to said zone feels rewarding. Spending more time in a single zone also builds up some appreciation for the zones when you inevitably don't have to go back to the same ones constantly.

It's great to reuse old zones, and honestly the devs should do it way more often. But you don't want players to feel like they are being jerked around by having to spend half their playtime on just travelling between zones each day.

That's something that always bugs me in World of Warcraft, the heavy reliance on portals to move around in the world. Even when you need to go from Stormwind or Orgrimmar to the Dragon Isles you have a portal. I understand the convenience but taking the boat makes it a better experience in my opinion.

I wish there was a way for us to do more questing in the old zones as an immersive experience while making it convenient to travel around the world

[Sondrelk]

Missing the point imo. This content would be aimed at travellers. At players who want a reason to visit all their favourite old zones. It doesn't need to be efficient or streamlined. I'd be perfectly happy if there was some exotic marketplace in Valdrakken, and some NPC asked me to collect a flower somewhere in the forests of Ashenvale. If I did so, he'd reward me with some currency or whatever. Sounds delightful.

What sort of currency would that be though? And how would it work as gameplay?

Believe me, i am all for seemingly tedious stuff like having to get to the Zangarmarsh to procure a rare mushroom for an obscure potion. But it still needs to be tied to some kind of gameplay, otherwise it's not much different from regular RP activities you can do currently.

You need some structure, and you need a reward. And if you have a reward then you need to consider the ramifications of players feeling like they are being made to waste time travelling for meager returns.

I guess you could just be talking about regular once and done story quests. And i do agree that they should be used more in that aspect.

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That's something that always bugs me in World of Warcraft, the heavy reliance on portals to move around in the world. Even when you need to go from Stormwind or Orgrimmar to the Dragon Isles you have a portal. I understand the convenience but taking the boat makes it a better experience in my opinion.

I wish there was a way for us to do more questing in the old zones as an immersive experience while making it convenient to travel around the world

Yeah. Portals are one of those conveniences that really takes away from the feel of the world. I get that players want them, but some players would like raids to be solo queue for Mythic gear, and it's quite apparent why that's not a good idea.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Yeah. Portals are one of those conveniences that really takes away from the feel of the world. I get that players want them, but some players would like raids to be solo queue for Mythic gear, and it's quite apparent why that's not a good idea.

Well for one, having no portals at all just makes the world more tedious and thats not fun nor is worthwhile content. This "Immersion" people love to talk about is really just doing nothing and if people feel immersed thats fine but don't expect everyone to feel the same.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Yeah. Portals are one of those conveniences that really takes away from the feel of the world. I get that players want them, but some players would like raids to be solo queue for Mythic gear, and it's quite apparent why that's not a good idea.

I think Cataclysm handled it relatively well by removing all the portals in previous expansion hubs except for those leading to Stormwind. Otherwise, the only portals were to higher-level locations, which was an expedience on account of how they were decentralized and spread across the old world. I'd like to see the portal rooms closed indefinitely for renovations, or wind up having an undefined incident that demands Stormwind and Orgrimmar put them under greater oversight and restrict their portal usage.

[Luck4]

June is also almost gone, and fake leaks are already appearing... just ~4 months folks.

I think this might change later, but for now, it seems like we only have Avaloren (due to ingame hints) and a Revamp (due to datamining hints) as possible expansions, or did I miss something?

It's interesting to note that Shadowlands was heavily teased in BFA through Mueh-zala, Vol'jin questline, and Tauren heritage quests. I wonder if something like this is happening right now.

[Telogrus]

Anyone have any good speculation on why the Primalists are so interested in the Dream and new World Tree?

[Khaza-R]

Anyone have any good speculation on why the Primalists are so interested in the Dream and new World Tree?

I think it will depend how they ultimately want to flesh out the dream and its connection to Life as a greater force.

But if they keep with the concept that the Emerald Dream is a titan creation to facilitate the ordering then it would make sense for them to want to destroy it. I think that's likely the case since the Primalist Future where they succeed it seems like Azeroth, or at least the Dragon Isles becomes frozen over. Likely implying that Vyranoth succeeds in the Emerald Dream.

[Telogrus]

I think it will depend how they ultimately want to flesh out the dream and its connection to Life as a greater force.

But if they keep with the concept that the Emerald Dream is a titan creation to facilitate the ordering then it would make sense for them to want to destroy it. I think that's likely the case since the Primalist Future where they succeed it seems like Azeroth, or at least the Dragon Isles becomes frozen over. Likely implying that Vyranoth succeeds in the Emerald Dream.

Thaldraszus being frozen in the Primalist Future could also just be because an area at such a high altitude and latitude would naturally be a snowy zone without the influence of Order

[Worldshaper]

June is also almost gone, and fake leaks are already appearing... just ~4 months folks.

I think this might change later, but for now, it seems like we only have Avaloren (due to ingame hints) and a Revamp (due to datamining hints) as possible expansions, or did I miss something?

It's interesting to note that Shadowlands was heavily teased in BFA through Mueh-zala, Vol'jin questline, and Tauren heritage quests. I wonder if something like this is happening right now.

Lots of ways they could take it forward from here.

1. Other side of Azeroth, may or may not be or contain "Avaloren".
2. World revamp or refresh. Could also be partial, as we've seen lots of Dwarf and Scarlet Crusade themed stuff.
3. South Seas on this side of the planet, east of Kalimdor or South of Pandaria.
4. Off-world, involving the Void and Light.
5. Underground, Blingtron war, perhaps Nerubians, Old God tendrils, core of Azeroth, elemental planes, etc.
6. Elemental plane version of Azeroth.
7. Ancient version of Azeroth.

Etc. There are lots of ways of packaging different concepts. For example, look at how Nazjatar and all that stuff got bundled into an expansion about faction warfare and heavy Death themes.

My personal favourite would be a light-hearted adventure to somewhere exotic, with pirates, naga, adventures and so on, OR an Hour of Twilight situation where the world is revamped due to some shenanigans involving the Old Gods, the Elements, or time travel.

[Mecheon]

My personal favourite hopeful thing is the moon. Just, going to the moon, finding out Elune stuff, dealing with what inevitable secrets it has up there (plus don't forget the Blue Child occaisonally just vanishes for a few years at a time. C'mon, you know that's actually a built spacecraft or something)

yes I know endwalker just sent us to the moon but. Its got promise.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

My personal favourite hopeful thing is the moon. Just, going to the moon
yes I know endwalker just sent us to the moon but. Its got promise.

Blizzard will call Todd Howard and we will get the moon expansion, but instead of dragonriding we will be having flying shipriding.