The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Raetary]

Elune is flat out stated to be a Life Pantheon member by both the Primus and Firim, in- and outside the game.
All of her involvement in recent developments have also been exclusive to Life related events.

The arguing about her abilities are meaningless as we can only deduce things from their visuals and in-game spell schools, the former of which means nothing and has never been consistent, and the latter is purely a game mechanic.

On top of that, Blizzards recent addition of the Arathi cosmology just throw the whole pendulum back to a more open ended magic system with magical energies actively mixing with each other.

So even if Elunes powers have some Light elements to them, it doesn't change her status as a Life goddess.

Just like Sacred Flame is a Light symbol, despite it being an elemental and Arcane flame.
Or how the Titans specialize in different types of magic, but remain beings of Order.
Or how all the SL residents use different powers in different afterlives, but Anima remains their main foundation.

[Joshuaj]

I wouldn't be so certain.

The Night Warrior, the Embrace, all those Balance Druids invoking celestial powers rather than Life magic whenever they represent Elune,

You act like Life magic is limited to "trees and leaves n shit", but that's not how it works. Also, her being linked to the Moon and lunar events just means Life has a lot of celestial based magics. It's also likely Elune represents the lunar aspects of Life, which makes sense considering her natural connection to the Dream, her lunar based abilities (Especially when wielding light, arcane, and shadow magics), the Tears of Elune representing the DREAM of what Azeroth could be, etc.

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Also, we don't know the name of the Life Pantheon. It's highly possibly the Life Pantheon's name is called "The Celestials".

[Hitei]

I wouldn't be so certain.

The Night Warrior, the Embrace, all those Balance Druids invoking celestial powers rather than Life magic whenever they represent Elune,

I mean, it's not some nebulous "celestial power" that can be argued is secretly Light in cosmic form. It's Astral magic, a nature+arcane hybridized school.

I never got the "Elune is Light" argument to begin with. She's literally a night goddess. Her people are called the NIGHT Elves and the cats she mutated are called NIGHTsabers, and her champion is the NIGHT Warrior, and every time she directly manifests her power on Azeroth, the light of the sun is eclipsed by the moon, shrouding the landscape in darkness. She is closer to being Void pantheon than Light, the cosmic faction that we know for a fact (confirmed on both sides of the war in question) zealously, obsessively rejects anything to do with darkness or shadow as abhorrent. Her being a Light being makes no sense. The Light absolutely detests anything even leaning in the direction of the Void and Elune's whole gimmick is darkness and night.

But even the Void pantheon line of reasoning doesn't make much sense when we have someone who was created alongside her sister stating that she is the Life counterpart to WQ's Death, and when we know that she got Eonar in trouble by giving her Life stuff.

[Joshuaj]

That's why I think her representing the lunar aspects of Life makes the most sense.

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Whenever I meet the Progenitor who made the force of Life (Their name is likely Life as well, if we argue Chronicle naming conventions), I gotta shake their hand...if they have one of course.

[Ersula]

*shrug*

The Light wants to spread and protect Life. It wants Order because that seems to rhyme with the Light: harmony.

Shadow wants Death (it consumes souls, remember). It also wants Disorder because it sees all possibilities.

So Elune being of Light somehow wouldn't surprise me.

All the cosmic forces want life: Life is necessary for all the cosmic forces, including death. You can't have worshippers, soldiers or even sacrifices without life.

[huth]

All the cosmic forces want life: Life is necessary for all the cosmic forces, including death. You can't have worshippers, soldiers or even sacrifices without life.

Need might be a better word. We've already seen what would happen with Death if there was no life in the universe. The whole place would just break down and fall apart, and quite literally so.

[Joshuaj]

Need might be a better word. We've already seen what would happen with Death if there was no life in the universe. The whole place would just break down and fall apart, and quite literally so.

It would still be life, albeit life on a higher scale. Not "mortal life", which is crucial to the Shadowlands in order to function, nor "astral life" as in habitable worlds and whatnot. But life as in "every cosmic realm has living creatures, forms of "flora and fauna", etc."

It's no different to how places like the Shadowlands have an established order to them, even though they're not realms associated with Order. That just means the influence has a higher presence in the greater cosmos, namely as a means of keeping the pattern steady.

Heck, this is sort of the case with every force in a way. There is a higher structure regarding Death, Shadow, Light, and Disorder as well.

Beings of Death and other realms can still "die out".

Beings of Shadow and other realms can still fall into oblivion and non-existence, which are constructs of Shadow.

Beings of Light and other realms could have luminated areas, magics that shine, harmonizing patterns, and whatnot.

And beings of Disorder and other realms will fall into a state of perpetual chaos if something screws up in the cosmic rule. This applies to the Zereths as well.

They're just higher states of the cosmic influences, states that can only really be transcended by the Progenitors themselves likely.

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Hope what I said ain't confusing or anything.

[Nightshade711]

I mean, it's not some nebulous "celestial power" that can be argued is secretly Light in cosmic form. It's Astral magic, a nature+arcane hybridized school.

I never got the "Elune is Light" argument to begin with. She's literally a night goddess. Her people are called the NIGHT Elves and the cats she mutated are called NIGHTsabers, and her champion is the NIGHT Warrior, and every time she directly manifests her power on Azeroth, the light of the sun is eclipsed by the moon, shrouding the landscape in darkness. She is closer to being Void pantheon than Light, the cosmic faction that we know for a fact (confirmed on both sides of the war in question) zealously, obsessively rejects anything to do with darkness or shadow as abhorrent. Her being a Light being makes no sense. The Light absolutely detests anything even leaning in the direction of the Void and Elune's whole gimmick is darkness and night.

But even the Void pantheon line of reasoning doesn't make much sense when we have someone who was created alongside her sister stating that she is the Life counterpart to WQ's Death, and when we know that she got Eonar in trouble by giving her Life stuff.

I mean…
Legion Khadgar speculated that she had created Xe’ra/the Prime Naaru & so the tears of Elune should open Light’s Heart since only a being on Xe’ras lineage could do so, which the tears of Elune did that very thing…
Would be strange for a void lord to be able to open the heart of a prime Naaru.

And Velen making comments that Elune’s magic is very close (or similar?) to the light.

And the fact that most of the time we see Elune’s magic it is fairly luminous. The whole point is essentially being the light in the dark. (Hince also why the moonwells glow quite bright)

But then again you have her ties to life. Perhaps she isn’t tied to a single pantheon.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I mean, it's not some nebulous "celestial power" that can be argued is secretly Light in cosmic form. It's Astral magic, a nature+arcane hybridized school.

I never got the "Elune is Light" argument to begin with. She's literally a night goddess.

Out side of the Taruan's views and the name of the sunwell Light has pretty much nothing to do with the Sun and if we were just going on naming conventions the night elfs call on the Light of Elune.

Other wise the idea that she's light comes from her priest the sisters of Elune using the light, Velan saying her power feels like that of the Narru, her tear awakening a Narru, Her being able to cleanse demons of Fel which the light can do, saving souls like the light, and Anduin saying she's like the holy light in BTS.

Blizzard has been pretty consistent with her being light aligned up till SL.

[Ersula]

Out side of the Taruan's views and the name of the sunwell Light has pretty much nothing to do with the Sun and if we were just going on naming conventions the night elfs call on the Light of Elune.

Other wise the idea that she's light comes from her priest the sisters of Elune using the light, Velan saying her power feels like that of the Narru, her tear awakening a Narru, Her being able to cleanse demons of Fel which the light can do, saving souls like the light, and Anduin saying she's like the holy light in BTS.

Blizzard has been pretty consistent with her being light aligned up till SL.

Interesting distinction and question is the cosmic force light or holy? Because Elune isn't directly associated with that kind of magic. She's more closely related to arcane and nature. After all, the light of the moon is merely a reflection from another source.

[Wyrt]

Is Elune actually related to arcane in lore or are people just getting that from game mechanics?

Elune being arcane related when the night elves banned arcane magic makes the lore incredibly awkward. Tyrande and Malfurion banning arcane magic while they were both actively using it.

[Ersula]

Is Elune actually related to arcane in lore or are people just getting that from game mechanics?

Elune being arcane related when the night elves banned arcane magic makes the lore incredibly awkward. Tyrande and Malfurion banning arcane magic while they were both actively using it.

The Night Elf Priest spells were arcane. Druids use Arcane & Nature Magic, with Elune's Chosen being emphatically arcane. Besides that I am a big supporter of 'the mechanics are the lore," magic typing is entirely for flavor & has nothing to do with mechanics 99% of the time.

The Night Elves banning the "arcane" is just another use of the word. They meant "arcane" meaning in the general definition of the word, "spellcasting of the mage variety." It's like when the game referred to the first ones "ordering" the universe, they mean it literally: Organizing the Universe according to their own machinations, not the universe-specific "attuning it to the cosmic force of Order" meaning.

[Wyrt]

The spell type is pretty irrelevant. Death and Shadow are both classed as Shadow spells. There's like 15 different things classed as nature spells.

Like I said, it'd be really weird for night elves to be anti-arcane if their goddess was granting them arcane powers. Maybe that's the lore Blizzard is going with, but it's a massive plot hole if it is.

[Joshuaj]

Out side of the Taruan's views and the name of the sunwell Light has pretty much nothing to do with the Sun and if we were just going on naming conventions the night elfs call on the Light of Elune.

Other wise the idea that she's light comes from her priest the sisters of Elune using the light, Velan saying her power feels like that of the Narru, her tear awakening a Narru, Her being able to cleanse demons of Fel which the light can do, saving souls like the light, and Anduin saying she's like the holy light in BTS.

Blizzard has been pretty consistent with her being light aligned up till SL.

Her powers are also linked with Balance Druids, which are Life aligned primarily. Her having light connections doesn't make her a life being.

Lool since we're arguing this topic, look at Eonar.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Interesting distinction and question is the cosmic force light or holy? Because Elune isn't directly associated with that kind of magic. She's more closely related to arcane and nature. After all, the light of the moon is merely a reflection from another source.

I don't believe there is any difference between the force light and holy, holy is just what the humans call the cosmic force as far as I can tell.

Either way both Velan and Anduin refer to her being like the light they use in the Cata ask Cdev and BTS respectively.

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Her powers are also linked with Balance Druids, which are Life aligned primarily. Her having light connections doesn't make her a life being.

Lool since we're arguing this topic, look at Eonar.

I'm not sure if balance druids have lore about there actual powers at all to say rather they are life aligned at all beyond just being druids.

[Eldryth]

Is Elune actually related to arcane in lore or are people just getting that from game mechanics?

Elune being arcane related when the night elves banned arcane magic makes the lore incredibly awkward. Tyrande and Malfurion banning arcane magic while they were both actively using it.

Astral magic is represented as a mix of nature and arcane magic in gameplay, but I'm not aware of it ever coming up in the lore. The closest thing I've seen to a link is that the star-based Constellars are aligned with the Pantheon, but even they don't really resemble Elune's astral magic.

With that said, Lorgar is right about her having too many ties to Light to see her as a purely Life entity. And she does have some kind of relationship with Eonar too. Yeah, Shadowlands did put her in the realm of Life, but Dragonflight established that other deities were able to claim parts of that as well (when we learned how the Titans carved out a piece of it to make the Emerald Dream.

I think it makes the most sense for her to be some kind of independent deity- someone affiliated with the various powers but not actually a part of any pantheon. Basically what Azeroth could be if she manages to be born without being controlled by any of the major cosmic forces.

[Joshuaj]

I don't believe there is any difference between the force light and holy, holy is just what the humans call the cosmic force as far as I can tell.

Either way both Velan and Anduin refer to her being like the light they use in the Cata ask Cdev and BTS respectively.

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I'm not sure if balance druids have lore about there actual powers at all to say rather they are life aligned at all beyond just being druids.

They've been nature and astral aligned for a while now.

"The elements that carve form into the universe are fluid forces of nature. Some beings seek to bend the power of these natural elements to their will. Druids, however, worship the protecting spirits of nature. Long ago, nature’s equilibrium was thrown out of balance, leaving the world vulnerable to catastrophic events, including the first invasion of the Burning Legion.

By leveraging the sacred powers of the moon, the sun, and the stars, balance druids access arcane and nature magics—made more potent still through shapeshifting, when the spellcaster takes the form of the moonkin—to aid in the fight against imbalance that threatens the natural order of all things"

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Astral magic is represented as a mix of nature and arcane magic in gameplay, but I'm not aware of it ever coming up in the lore. The closest thing I've seen to a link is that the star-based Constellars are aligned with the Pantheon, but even they don't really resemble Elune's astral magic.

With that said, Lorgar is right about her having too many ties to Light to see her as a purely Life entity. And she does have some kind of relationship with Eonar too. Yeah, Shadowlands did put her in the realm of Life, but Dragonflight established that other deities were able to claim parts of that as well (when we learned how the Titans carved out a piece of it to make the Emerald Dream.

I think it makes the most sense for her to be some kind of independent deity- someone affiliated with the various powers but not actually a part of any pantheon. Basically what Azeroth could be if she manages to be born without being controlled by any of the major cosmic forces.

You can be a Pantheon member of one force yet still have connections with other magics and forces.

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"Either way both Velan and Anduin refer to her being like the light they use in the Cata ask Cdev and BTS respectively."

This just means she has light connections, either inherently or externally (most likely both, since she has a celestial connection with beings like Xe'ra as well, which implies she's worked with the Light before).

Anduin and Velen do not and should not know more about Elune than Tyrande, folks.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

They've been nature and astral aligned for a while now.

"The elements that carve form into the universe are fluid forces of nature. Some beings seek to bend the power of these natural elements to their will. Druids, however, worship the protecting spirits of nature. Long ago, nature’s equilibrium was thrown out of balance, leaving the world vulnerable to catastrophic events, including the first invasion of the Burning Legion.

By leveraging the sacred powers of the moon, the sun, and the stars, balance druids access arcane and nature magics—made more potent still through shapeshifting, when the spellcaster takes the form of the moonkin—to aid in the fight against imbalance that threatens the natural order of all things"

Looks like this is from Legion and I missed it. and might be the only lore actual boomkin lore we have ever gotten, which is kinda dumb given it's just on a class preview page like no one will see.

Other wise this seems to be inline with the spirit of life from the old novels which is I think the only actual life reprehensive we have ever actually "seen" so ya they would be life based

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Anduin and Velen do not and should not know more about Elune than Tyrande, folks.

Tyrande agrees with both of them that it's light with Anduin even training with her, she just rejected that Elune was a Narru.

[Joshuaj]

Looks like this is from Legion and I missed it. and might be the only lore actual boomkin lore we have ever gotten, which is kinda dumb given it's just on a class preview page like no one will see.

Other wise this seems to be inline with the spirit of life from the old novels which is I think the only actual life reprehensive we have ever actually "seen" so ya they would be life based

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Tyrande agrees with both of them that it's light with Anduin even training with her, she just rejected that Elune was a Narru.

Ah gotcha. Forgot about that part.

[Hitei]

The spell type is pretty irrelevant. Death and Shadow are both classed as Shadow spells. There's like 15 different things classed as nature spells.

Like I said, it'd be really weird for night elves to be anti-arcane if their goddess was granting them arcane powers. Maybe that's the lore Blizzard is going with, but it's a massive plot hole if it is.

Putting aside the above specific clarification that they do in fact use a combination of nature and arcane, the schools of spells in gmae are somewhat relevant to lore. Not because it is a 100% surefire qualification that something is from a certain source, but because it represents at the very least, a decision to associate a spell or group of spells with one thing rather than another. They chose to make those spells nature arcane when they could have made them holystorm (nature + holy).

Starshards, the old Night Elf priest ability from vanilla, was still an arcane spell, and Tyrande, even back in Cata, used nothing but arcane schooled abilities.

Which is not to say that Elune is supposed to be arcane in nature, but that--consistently, for the past 20 years, she has not been a source of Light based energy, everything associated with her was made arcane, until the new arcane+nature hybrid was introduced, where she was shifted more towards that.

I don't believe there is any difference between the force light and holy, holy is just what the humans call the cosmic force as far as I can tell.

Either way both Velan and Anduin refer to her being like the light they use in the Cata ask Cdev and BTS respectively.

I don't think either of them are reliable sources on the matter. They both view the entire world in terms of Light and think of everything from the perspective of "there is Light everywhere". There is some wonky conflation here, not on your part, but on the part of the game, because all of this is trying to do the awkward bridging job of resolving that Night Elf priests, from a purist lore perspective, really don't have anything to do with the Light (similar to undead priests) but because the player class is a Light and Shadow setup, there is a need to establish that all "priests" are doing different iterations of Light magic. Otherwise things like the Netherlight temple logic starts to fall apart.

You pointed out last page that it's only with SL that Elune is removed from the Light (though really I would argue that Legion showed her power being not Light associated--she makes Val'sharah dark with her eclipse, turns Ysera into stars and then her power purifies the Pillar, growing a bunch of plants around it), but I feel like you're overlooking that up until Legion's Xe'ra bit, there was never much indication she was Light based. Like it sorta was just that one brief window. She wasn't Light and then not Light, she was unclear Arcane-Starlight-Moonlight-Nature then briefly compared to Light-Light, then called Astral (which is literally that original combination of things, Starlight/moonlight that is Arcane + Nature). In WC3/Vanilla she was giving priests/tyrande arcane abilities, and the mother of a primal nature demigod who was the source of all druidic teachings. In Cata they doubled down on Tyrande's priestess powers being a whole suite of arcane spells and zero Light or Holy ones. Legion, BfA and SL are discussed above.