The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Viridiel]

I think Stratholme could very easily serve as a teaser for the Last Titan, like revealing that the Scourge are under new leadership, but I don't see it being the link between Midnight and the Last Titan. I don't see a world where the reason we return to Northrend isn't because of either Iridikron resurfacing from his old lair or the titans returning (which we've been told is going to happen at least at some point in the expansion).

It feels certain to me that the Scourge will be used as a way to bring back in some aspects of Shadowlands without the extremely unpopular bits, so I think if they have a new leader they will be intimately tied to the Shadowlands. These are the options as I see it:

• Denathrius: the nathrezim are responsible for the creation of the Scourge in the first place, and Denathrius is by far the most popular Shadowlands character of any significance.
• Mawsworn loyalists: some remnant of the Jailer. I don't think there are any existing good candidates, so it would need to be a new character.
• The Primus: he can finally become the villain he was meant to be. He could have a mental break following from his time as the Runecarver, or something else causes him to turn on us.
• A new hidden Death figure: the Jailer 2.0.
• Kel'Thuzad: again.

Of those, Denathrius is the most likely and naturally has a link to Stratholme via the nathrezim, if that matters. Mawsworn loyalists are possible but potentially a terrible move -- visually interesting but shallow and likely to trigger Shadowlands vitriol. The Primus is a fun option but really unlikely because it would be a huge shift in his character; maybe he'll help us free the Scourge instead. Jailer 2.0 would be the Jailer 2.0, so obviously not happening. Kel'Thuzad is entirely possible, but I don't quite see a way for him to return in a form that would make sense as leader of the Scourge.

So I think if we do return to Stratholme in Midnight, it'll be to reveal to us that Denathrius and the nathrezim have taken control of the Scourge for some reason. We won't move on it right away, but it'll be important when we coincidentally find ourselves back in Northrend.

[Enrif]

The OG Order Halls weren't all set on the Broken Isles, so idk why we assume new ones must be set in Northrend.
Or why Every class has get brand new ones.

Some require new ones because they lost their access to the first one.
E.g. Warrior (Odyn is not gonna be friendly), Rogues, Mages,

Some should get a new one because Northrend or newer locations offers a better alternative:
E.g. DKs, Druids, Hunters.

But the rest?
Replacing them is unnecessary and even counterintuitive.
(Replacing Light's Hope and Heart of Azeroth? What on earth for?)

Rather than replacing them for no reason, i'd rather those just get expanded.
Add another chamber to lights Hope, tack on another landmass onto Dreadscar, make use of Mardum for DHs, add another floor to Netherlight, etc.

For some of the classes, they got new races in them, that wouldn't make sense with some of the old order halls. Druids got Kul Tiran and Zandalari druids which have nothing in common with the Cenarion Circle. Paladins got Dark Iron and Zandalari, which also don't fit into the Silver Hand. Shamans got Kul Tirans and Dark Iron which don't exactly fit into the Earthen Ring. Priests and Warlocks opened their gates for any race.

Death Knight and Demon Hunter might be the exception here, and i'm sure warlocks would like something better than their rock.

So there is plenty reason to get new order halls. From my point of view, order halls could be a evergreen feature that is added to each continent. Each a bit different to fit the locale.

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I think Stratholme could very easily serve as a teaser for the Last Titan, like revealing that the Scourge are under new leadership, but I don't see it being the link between Midnight and the Last Titan. I don't see a world where the reason we return to Northrend isn't because of either Iridikron resurfacing from his old lair or the titans returning (which we've been told is going to happen at least at some point in the expansion).

It feels certain to me that the Scourge will be used as a way to bring back in some aspects of Shadowlands without the extremely unpopular bits, so I think if they have a new leader they will be intimately tied to the Shadowlands. These are the options as I see it:

• Denathrius: the nathrezim are responsible for the creation of the Scourge in the first place, and Denathrius is by far the most popular Shadowlands character of any significance.
• Mawsworn loyalists: some remnant of the Jailer. I don't think there are any existing good candidates, so it would need to be a new character.
• The Primus: he can finally become the villain he was meant to be. He could have a mental break following from his time as the Runecarver, or something else causes him to turn on us.
• A new hidden Death figure: the Jailer 2.0.
• Kel'Thuzad: again.

Of those, Denathrius is the most likely and naturally has a link to Stratholme via the nathrezim, if that matters. Mawsworn loyalists are possible but potentially a terrible move -- visually interesting but shallow and likely to trigger Shadowlands vitriol. The Primus is a fun option but really unlikely because it would be a huge shift in his character; maybe he'll help us free the Scourge instead. Jailer 2.0 would be the Jailer 2.0, so obviously not happening. Kel'Thuzad is entirely possible, but I don't quite see a way for him to return in a form that would make sense as leader of the Scourge.

So I think if we do return to Stratholme in Midnight, it'll be to reveal to us that Denathrius and the nathrezim have taken control of the Scourge for some reason. We won't move on it right away, but it'll be important when we coincidentally find ourselves back in Northrend.

Only Denathrius makes sense here. If we see the Primus again, he will be our ally leading the maldraxxi forces against the treacherous Denathrius.

[Scyth]

I would love to see the class order halls return, even better if it's alongside class-specific campaigns, similar to what we got in Legion.

[Cheezits]

The Scourge is the one plotline that I have genuinely no idea what they will do with. It makes sense for Denny and/or Darkhan to reappear with them and for them to be in both Midnight and TLT, but how does it even tie to the Void/Light/Titans story? And beyond that, anything to do with Azshara, Arathi or even Elune?

[Enrif]

The Scourge is the one plotline that I have genuinely no idea what they will do with. It makes sense for Denny and/or Darkhan to reappear with them and for them to be in both Midnight and TLT, but how does it even tie to the Void/Light/Titans story? And beyond that, anything to do with Azshara, Arathi or even Elune?

I think the Scourge will be a sideplot, like the Kobyss are for TWW, not a mayor thing. The focus will be on Void/Titan stuff.

[Viridiel]

The Scourge is the one plotline that I have genuinely no idea what they will do with. It makes sense for Denny and/or Darkhan to reappear with them and for them to be in both Midnight and TLT, but how does it even tie to the Void/Light/Titans story? And beyond that, anything to do with Azshara, Arathi or even Elune?

Well, I think there's a strong chance that Denathrius will salvage the entire Burning Legion, Scourge included. We know that TLT has to include Sargeras in some form, even if that's just a glimpse or a throwaway line while the titans and Illidan escape the Seat. I think strengthening Denathrius' ties to established characters like Sargeras (manipulated by the dreadlords) and Illidan (destroyed Nathreza) is the best way to establish him as a longer term villain, and there should be plenty of room for that in the Last Titan.

[Enrif]

Not sure how i would feel if Denathrius and the Natzhrezim overtake the remnants of the legion.

While the Natzherzim were master infiltrators and used that also for the legion, i don't think they were that high up in the ranks of the legion. The eredar seem to be at the top with pit lords and shivvara being their generals.

I think i would prefer to have Denathrius and the Nathrezim as a evil force aligned with death and give the legion a more warlord like factions that compete with each other, lead by pitlords and other greater demons.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Not sure how i would feel if Denathrius and the Natzhrezim overtake the remnants of the legion.

While the Natzherzim were master infiltrators and used that also for the legion, i don't think they were that high up in the ranks of the legion. The eredar seem to be at the top with pit lords and shivvara being their generals.

I think i would prefer to have Denathrius and the Nathrezim as a evil force aligned with death and give the legion a more warlord like factions that compete with each other, lead by pitlords and other greater demons.

I... hope not. The nathrezim retcon is one thing, but to use that as enough tether to tell that story (that of Denathrius and the nathrezim rallying the remnants of the Burning Legion as another pawn for Death) would ruin the legacy of demons and the Burning Legion, in my mind.

Then again, demons are kind of in the same boat as the remaining Scourge. Leaderless, just aimlessly existing. Still a threat in their own right but not a uniformed one.

I would imagine they have infiltrated Azeroth and have started to reform the Undead Scourge into the Scourge 2.0.

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I think strengthening Denathrius' ties to established characters like Sargeras (manipulated by the dreadlords) and Illidan (destroyed Nathreza) is the best way to establish him as a longer term villain, and there should be plenty of room for that in the Last Titan.

Ahhh, I didn't even consider Illidan's indirect connection to Denathrius and the nathrezim in this way. I forgot about Nathreza completely.

Perhaps, while inside the sword Denathrius is telling them to take him back to Nathreza because Nathreza had a specific artifact/machine/specific way to get him out of the sword, for him to be answered, "Uh, yeah... about that..."

[Cheezits]

The Nathrezim retcon is just about their origin, and not really a retcon as it was heavily implied the Nathrezim were doing their own thing in WC3. They are still demons, we just now know they were first created by a death god and that was what the secret conspiracy was. If someone didn't know anything about SL lore you could say "the Nathrezim serve a death god not Sargeras" and that about covers it.

They can "fix" their story by having Denny plotting beyond Zovaal (this kind of felt like the implication by the end of SL) and the focus returning back to the Nathrezim meddling in affairs for some greater purpose. Though I don't know what that would be: I don't think Denny actually wanted permanent non-existence and may have had a contingency plan if Zovaal won. We still don't know what his goal was.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

The Nathrezim retcon is just about their origin

Not only their origin, but their entire role in duping Sargeras.

Although it could be closer to recontextualizing the story. Sargeras learned of the Void from his first encounter with the nathrezim on a planet infested by the Old Gods. They just let him know what they were and what the Void was, at that time.

and not really a retcon as it was heavily implied the Nathrezim were doing their own thing in WC3.

??? And where was this "heavily" implied?

They are still demons, we just know they were created by a death god and that was what the secret conspiracy was.

The ones that joined the Burning Legion became demons. They were not created as demons.

[Cheezits]

Not only their origin, but their entire role in duping Sargeras.

Although it could be closer to recontextualizing the story. Sargeras learned of the Void from his first encounter with the nathrezim on a planet infested by the Old Gods. They just let him know what they were and what the Void was, at that .

Yeah I was primarily referring to that which was an actual retcon, as in the old lore it was Eredar that started the fall of Sargeras. It then became Nathrezim at some point (Chronicle 1?) and then when you combine it with the line from Warcraft 3...

(Can't find the exact line) The Legion may fall, but we are Nathrezim!

I think there are also other hints here and there. That they manipulated Sargeras so hard is definitely pushing it but I think there have been seeds for a while that they were loyal to something or someone else.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Yeah I was primarily referring to that which was an actual retcon, as in the old lore it was Eredar that started the fall of Sargeras. It then became Nathrezim at some point (Chronicle 1?) and then when you combine it with the line from Warcraft 3...

It was Chronicle 1. Originally it was described as the fighting the eredar caused Sargeras' spiral into madness, but that changed when draenei were announced for The Burning Crusade and Metzen touched on the retcon.

Sargeras had already encountered nathrezim during his demon hunt with Aggramar across the universe, even imprisoning some on Mardum and encountering the nathrezim Ulthalesh. So when he encountered the conclave of them on the Old God infested world, he already knew of them.

(Can't find the exact line) The Legion may fall, but we are Nathrezim!

Yeah, this came in WC3: TFT during the meeting with the dreadlords and Sylvanas, but this in no way implied they were separate from the Burning Legion. They make reference to not allowing the returning "King" Arthas wrestle control of the Scourge away from the dreadlords, as the 3 were controlling the Scourge at that point. The nathrezim were showcased to be 100% loyal to the Burning Legion from WC3 all the way up to Shadowlands.

I think there are also other hints here and there. That they manipulated Sargeras so hard is definitely pushing it but I think there have been seeds for a while that they were loyal to something or someone else.

Nathrezim were always described devious and manipulative in nature, sure. That was mostly ascribed to their preferred way of causing chaos across the universe: infiltrating populations and sowing dissent from the inside out, taking on guises of their enemies and trick each other (much like Deathwing, Onyxia and Blackwing did, funny enough) and the like.

I suppose it's easier to look back now, after the SL reveal, and say it was there the whole time, but there were no overt or even indirect instances showing the nathrezim were ever in it for themselves pre-Shadowlands.

The retcon is the manipulation they engaged in by putting the fear of the Void into Sargeras when he encountered them on the Old God planet, ultimately leading him to create the Burning Legion (subsequently, nathrezim becoming demons to infiltrate it).

[Ersula]

The retcon is the manipulation they engaged in by putting the fear of the Void into Sargeras when he encountered them on the Old God planet, ultimately leading him to create the Burning Legion (subsequently, nathrezim becoming demons to infiltrate it).

In a way they kind of reversed the retcon. Originally it was written the Eredar corrupted Sargeras, then it that was reversed so that Sargeras did the corrupting, but now its the Dreadlords. Dreadlords manipulated Sargeras for the Jailer.

[Monkal]

I, for one, vote for Dar'Khan to be the character who leads the Scourge from now on. Midnight feels like the right time to reintroduce him and set him up for TLT and beyond.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I, for one, vote for Dar'Khan to be the character who leads the Scourge from now on. Midnight feels like the right time to reintroduce him and set him up for TLT and beyond.

At this point why not, I suppose. It wouldn't be WoW unless a previously deceased villain returned only to be unalived a 2nd or 3rd time.

[Cheezits]

I, for one, vote for Dar'Khan to be the character who leads the Scourge from now on. Midnight feels like the right time to reintroduce him and set him up for TLT and beyond.

His silly design from the manga is actually very timely, I think that if he comes back he will have that giant cowboy hat. He is THE Elf scourge character after Sylvanas and was even part of the old quests so he deserves to be a big character now.



https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wo...20201210143702

Honestly this design feels kind of Xal-tier, he would be a good box art villain. Especially if he's good and rotten/rotting (he won't be)

[Joshuaj]

Well, I think there's a strong chance that Denathrius will salvage the entire Burning Legion, Scourge included. We know that TLT has to include Sargeras in some form, even if that's just a glimpse or a throwaway line while the titans and Illidan escape the Seat. I think strengthening Denathrius' ties to established characters like Sargeras (manipulated by the dreadlords) and Illidan (destroyed Nathreza) is the best way to establish him as a longer term villain, and there should be plenty of room for that in the Last Titan.

This would be cool. I just hope Blizzard doesn't chicken out and make him the next big Disorder villain.

I want a full blown Pantheon of Disorder. One that's not at all united, they go against eachother all the time, and they are the epitome of anarchy!

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The literal counterparts of the Titans.

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In a way they kind of reversed the retcon. Originally it was written the Eredar corrupted Sargeras, then it that was reversed so that Sargeras did the corrupting, but now its the Dreadlords. Dreadlords manipulated Sargeras for the Jailer.

The Dreadlords instilling fear within Sargeras was kinda always a thing, even in the older lore. That's actually part of why I don't dislike the Shadowlands "retcon".

[Enrif]

His silly design from the manga is actually very timely, I think that if he comes back he will have that giant cowboy hat. He is THE Elf scourge character after Sylvanas and was even part of the old quests so he deserves to be a big character now.



https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wo...20201210143702

Honestly this design feels kind of Xal-tier, he would be a good box art villain. Especially if he's good and rotten/rotting (he won't be)

I don't get the hype about Dar'khan. He is a small traitor with little about him that makes him interesting. without the manga, there wouldn't even be much to characterize him. He's on the level of Speaker Eirich in TWW. A dungeon endboss at best.

[Cheezits]

I don't get the hype about Dar'khan. He is a small traitor with little about him that makes him interesting. without the manga, there wouldn't even be much to characterize him. He's on the level of Speaker Eirich in TWW. A dungeon endboss at best.

I mean he's Xavius-tier in "traitormanguy from lore" that they can play with and develop further. The Scourge story in Midnight and TLT needs a main baddie and Denathrius would be too much right now, so he fits well as a figurehead that ties directly into the history of Quel'thalas. He was even the "final boss" of the Belf starting zones in TBC.

The Scourge got so messed up by Wrath and SL that it needs a hard redo if it is going to stay on Azeroth and putting some named characters into the mix would work well.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

If Midnight sees the return of Sylvanas (in any capacity) to help defend Quel'Thalas from the Void, I would like to see Lirath also appear in some capacity.

Definitely in a villainous role. Perhaps the Void using shadow necromancy to raise him. Given how much rent Lirath holds in Sylvanas' head, would be some interesting interactions if she's forced to fight against him... even if it's just a physical representation.