The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Khaza-R]

Azeroth will be a hunter then? Seems to have a bow with her.

Seems to be a horn from a helmet and I what am pretty certain are DK runes. Given their color and the exact same orientation (Blood - Frost - Unholy)

So in the HS universe maybe Argus never became a death titan. Either this new titan or Azeroth are the death titan? The latter would certainly be one way to flip the script on everyone's expectations lol.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Why do you want that? What do the First Ones do which hurts the Titans and their influence? What about the First Ones makes the Light any less divine, or the Void any less unique?

The First Ones are there to give WoW an established top power so things simply aren't confusing. And on top of it, they're also an indirect means of giving us a proper antagonist for the 6 Cosmic Powers.

Well, for one, they inherently render the Light less divine because the Light is no longer self-existent. It seems much less sensible to worship something if it was created by something else instead of being the sole originating point for all things. Prior to the introduction of the First Ones, the Light came first and was a nice concept consistent with the cosmological argument. The First Ones rendered the Light inherently unworthy of worship on account of that it is just part of their grand design.

The First Ones also seem like they don't fill any role that the Light couldn't. The Light, prior to their introduction, was sold as a self-existent thing that satisfies all the requirements to fulfill the cosmological argument. Conversely, the First Ones superfluously complicate things by violating the law of parsimony because there are multiple of them. If anything, it makes it difficult to imagine how they could have preceded everything, and just opens up the need for a new singular self-existent being.

Secondly, there is significantly less mystique to the Void when its origins can be truncated as "alien beings 3d printed it". There's not much room for the kind of profundity you'd hope for from an inherently-gradient concept when it's nothing more than a construct of seemingly relatively-familiar beings. Theoretically, this could be mitigated if it wasn't a product of a Zereth and the Void Lords weren't printed, but it still feels like it dilutes it. The degree to which the Void is alien and unfamiliar is simply diminished by the knowledge that it emerged as part of the plan of an alien civilization.

As for the titans, the First Ones didn't strictly supplant them on a cosmological level so much as a conceptual level. It is true that the titans were never the peak of WoW's hierarchy. However, the titans previously filled the niche of a highly-advanced precursor civilization with a motif structured around order which is mainly interacted with through relics and automata. Their actual narrative role and the concept behind them is very similar, to the point it seems like the objective of their introduction was to try to rekindle the mystique the titans lost in Legion.

To preempt deviation and subsequent reprimand, I will frame my further thoughts strictly through the lens of how I think this will impact things moving forward. In my mind, the First Ones significantly limit our opportunities for milking any interesting concept out of the cosmic balance and realms. Instead of an array of paired concepts naturally flowing from a previous pair, most of our exploration of the cosmos in future expansions will likely be diminished by the presence of the First Ones. Any mystique that any of the realms may have is naturally reduced by the knowledge that they are nothing more than facilities for the First Ones' cosmic industry. While there could potentially be some interest in finding out precisely what the First Ones were trying to construct with the cosmic forces, I don't know how this could be very appealing after their extraordinarily unpopular introduction. I actually think it's rather tragic, because I personally love high-concept fantasy, like Kirkbride's Elder Scrolls lore. With the introduction of the First Ones, the potential of the cosmic forces seems to have been inherently diminished. They have even been diminished as immediate threats because we already know that there is now an external force somewhere which exceeds the other six, further diluting them on a cosmological scale.

[Khaza-R]

Argus' art is on the top right tho? Seems he's very much Death Titan esc there lol. You can argue the colored things are shamanistic instead.

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The Tauren also call Azeroth the earthmother, and Azeroth does seem to be inspired by the primordial Gaia.

Shaman would make the most sense for sure but they already confirmed the shaman titan is Golganneth. Amitus is paladin and Khoz'goroth is warrior.

[huth]

Shaman would make the most sense for sure but they already confirmed the shaman titan is Golganneth. Amitus is paladin and Khoz'goroth is warrior.

Could also be Eonar, who's probably Druid.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

@Aucald

I am highly tempted to contest Cosmicpreds' point, but the moderation staff has seemingly undertaken to more proactively reprimand deviation. Would it or would it not constitute a violation of the topical guidelines if I argued this, and would it or would it not change your answer if I framed it very specifically through the context of future opportunities and how the First One problem could impact things in 11.0 and onward?

[Skytotem]

The elephant in the room, titans will always feel like Alliance lore. Even with Aggramars involvement and Gronds existence, they just don't feel tied to the Horde.

[Khaza-R]

The elephant in the room, titans will always feel like Alliance lore. Even with Aggramars involvement and Gronds existence, they just don't feel tied to the Horde.

I think its less of an issue with the Horde being disconnected from the titans and more them rarely having their own origins to explore. Would've been interesting to see those primordial trolls they talked about before the expansion and where they fit into the history of Azeroth.

Maybe its something that will pop up Emerald Dream patch.

[Skytotem]

Uhm, I really thought you meant something else entirely, not really about the story itself.

Frankly I am huge supporter for freedom of story and also freedon for comedians etc. I mean its just a story..so idk how I feel about this. I heard about the story, but again to me its just a story. It probably has something to do with that is a kids game 12+.

What do you even mean "I'm for freedom" no one's arguing blizz writers go to jail, Im pointing out that they're bad at telling stories about sensitive material with proper weight and care, and should stay away from it until they're ready to do it right.

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I think its less of an issue with the Horde being disconnected from the titans and more them rarely having their own origins to explore. Would've been interesting to see those primordial trolls they talked about before the expansion and where they fit into the history of Azeroth.

Maybe its something that will pop up Emerald Dream patch.

That's exactly the same issue, the horde is too often forced to share Alliance stuff when they should get their own version of things.

[Revamp Man]

They're not like the Titans at all. Can we stop this spread of misinformation already?

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It's gonna happen regardless. We'll get our Azeroth plots, hell 11.0 may also be Azeroth related, but none of that means we'll not get more Realms anytime soon.

First Ones created the Titans for maintaining order in the great pattern
Titans created the keepers to maintain order on Azeroth

First Ones seemingly know the future
Titans seemingly know the future

[Shadowferal]

Next expansion...the First-first ones...for real this time!

[Aucald]

I am highly tempted to contest Cosmicpreds' point, but the moderation staff has seemingly undertaken to more proactively reprimand deviation. Would it or would it not constitute a violation of the topical guidelines if I argued this, and would it or would it not change your answer if I framed it very specifically through the context of future opportunities and how the First One problem could impact things in 11.0 and onward?

I second this.

I don't see any issues discussing the lore behind the First Ones as it pertains to possible and/or future content, no. The thread warnings set forth are about bickering as concerns previous lore from past stories ad nauseam, which is what the Lore forum is essentially for. Keep it topical as concerns future content and it's fine.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That's exactly the same issue, the horde is too often forced to share Alliance stuff when they should get their own version of things.

The titans are in no way “alliance stuff”, hell given the origin of the goats isn’t tied to them the alliance actually has one less race tied to them then the horde.

[Skytotem]

The titans are in no way “alliance stuff”, hell given the origin of the goats isn’t tied to them the alliance actually has one less race tied to them then the horde.

They look like humans and dwarves, and are deeply tied to dwarf and gnome history. Nelves work with mountain giants ans green dragons and are historically tied to the Emerald Dream

They're tied to order and arcane stuff much more strongly than any spiritual angles, so they're closer to the alliance in flavor outside of the elves... Who already split horde themes awkwardly.

Thematically, having Azeroth be "the earth mother" and having Aggramar make Grond, does not make the titans and all their vaults feel as relevant to the horde races, who have a much bigger aesthetic gap.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

They look like humans and dwarves, and are deeply tied to dwarf and gnome history. Nelves work with mountain giants ans green dragons and are historically tied to the Emerald Dream

They're tied to order and arcane stuff much more strongly than any spiritual angles, so they're closer to the alliance in flavor outside of the elves... Who already split horde themes awkwardly.

Thematically, having Azeroth be "the earth mother" and having Aggramar make Grond, does not make the titans and all their vaults feel as relevant to the horde races, who have a much bigger aesthetic gap.

The titans are no more tied to dwarfs and gnomes then they are to tauren and orcs, all of them are down the line creations of things the titans made, dwarfs gnomes and tauren made to be servants and orcs are a Matryoshka dolls of Titan fungicide.

Trolls also work with the Loa constantly and even live with some in there citys so the elfs working with Titan creations isn’t a one sided thing.

So that just leaves that they look “human” and there arcane based and even the arcane typing is just the orcs and Tauren being dumb asses as even trolls could always be mages.

[Skytotem]

The titans are no more tied to dwarfs and gnomes then they are to tauren and orcs, all of them are down the line creations of things the titans made, dwarfs gnomes and tauren made to be servants and orcs are a Matryoshka dolls of Titan fungicide.

Trolls also work with the Loa constantly and even live with some in there citys so the elfs working with Titan creations isn’t a one sided thing.

So that just leaves that they look “human” and there arcane based and even the arcane typing is just the orcs and Tauren being dumb asses as even trolls could always be mages.

Okay, so you're claiming that the tauren and orcs, like the dwarves, have a fascination with titan ruins and venerate them culturally?

How do you toss in tauren with 'made to be servants'?

"They can be mages" doesn't change the difference in cultural focus.


You're not making any actual arguments that hold up under any scrutiny here.

EDIT: How do you equate the loa with Green Dragons and Mountain giants? None of the loa have shown any specific dedication to the titans.

[Teriz]

I doubt WoW is getting a Titan-based expansion right after Hearthstone gets a Titan-based expansion. I also believe the titans are going to be major part of the end of Dragonflight.

I still believe the top contender is Lightbound invasion with Arakkoa and Ogres as the new races. I have yet to see a rival expansion contender.

[Jekyll]

New trading post items announced - Blood troll armor is here, gul'dan staff, netherwing dragonriding drake and others.

The Blood Troll armour is probably going to show up in August. I hope I'm still alive at that time XD

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Okay, so you're claiming that the tauren and orcs, like the dwarves, have a fascination with titan ruins and venerate them culturally?

The orcs founded shamanism at the skull of grond a build a temple there worshiping and communing with the elements there until the orges came and blew it up, the cows worship the earth mother who is Azeroth, a Titan.

They both might be crude in there ways of doing so as there both dumber then dwarfs but yes they venerate the titans and orcs had a fascination with what little ruins they had before they got blown up.

How do you toss in tauren with 'made to be servants'?

the Mogu made them to be slaves.

"They can be mages" doesn't change the difference in cultural focus.

the only races that focus on arcane as a culture are elfs and the horde has twice as many as the alliance given that night elfs don’t partake mostly.

EDIT: How do you equate the loa with Green Dragons and Mountain giants? None of the loa have shown any specific dedication to the titans.

during the ordering of Azeroth Freya made the wild gods and they then helped her spread greenery through out the world, they did the same thing the giants did but focused on life instead of land scapes.

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I doubt WoW is getting a Titan-based expansion right after Hearthstone gets a Titan-based expansion. I also believe the titans are going to be major part of the end of Dragonflight.

ya I think it’s likely we’ll see a lot more Titan stuff likely in the last patch and I’d be surprised if we didn’t get some character over lap between it and hearthstone like with some watchers or other Titan constructs.

Hell if they wanted to go all out they could put away some hidden Titan scanner that took 20 thousand years to find any thing and make the hearthstone titans canon but still a sleep like Azeroth some where in the universe.

[Chickat]

My point is that I think it's just an iffy design that doesn't look much like a titan; I don't think it's strictly a matter of "wokeism" or any of that other culture war nonsense.



Updated netherwing? That's pretty sweet!

I feel like they wouldnt update the Netherwing model unless they were going to be relevant soon?

So imo either they are appearing in an upcoming patch, or maybe they will be used in an expansion with Ethereals.

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I thought the whole idea Azeroth was a first one came from the First One waystones reacting to the player. Which in turn the devs said was because of the player's connection to Azeroth's world-soul.

Obviously that plot point never got explored but I can see why some people ran with it.

Maybe Azeroth is a first one/titan Hybrid. Maybe First Ones and Titans had a war and the Titans won somehow, but there was a Romeo and Juliet love story in there somewhere between a titan and first one. They created a hybrid. Azeroth.

Its almost reminding me of Sanctuary too.

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Obviously. The Titans are progenitors. The word just means "ancestor".

Oh nvm I forgot its said the Titans came after yes?

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I honestly don't think the titans were ever the top dogs, but you are right. It is true that their role in canon seemingly was appropriated for the First Ones and simply extended to a larger scale, which is part of what makes them so unpleasant. The less we see of the First Ones, the better.

IM fine with the first ones existing if its sorta like they were already dead when the titans came about and they just discovered their remains or lost civilization. If thats all it is and we just hear about them from time to time, but never meet them it would be ok. I absolutely dont want to ever meet a first one.

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And they still are. The First Ones are their own thing entirely.

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If the Titans are the top of Order and are responsible for shaping much of the Physical Multiverse and whatnot, the First Ones are the guys that are responsible for said Gods as well as the system and forces of which these gods, as well as the cosmology, come from.

Actaually maybe they should retcon it and make the first ones the progenitors and creators of the Eternals. Makes the Covenant leaders mega titan keepers and the first ones the Titans of death basically.

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I doubt WoW is getting a Titan-based expansion right after Hearthstone gets a Titan-based expansion. I also believe the titans are going to be major part of the end of Dragonflight.

I still believe the top contender is Lightbound invasion with Arakkoa and Ogres as the new races. I have yet to see a rival expansion contender.

Tbh, I dont think we will see the titans again until we need them in the battle vs the void. Seems like the time we would unleash a purified Sargeras.

Or who knows. Maybe they will Medan Illidan and all put their souls and power inside of him. Super sayain Nelf man will save us all.

[Alanar]

What do you even mean "I'm for freedom" no one's arguing blizz writers go to jail, Im pointing out that they're bad at telling stories about sensitive material with proper weight and care, and should stay away from it until they're ready to do it right.
.

That is taken it to the extreme, the point is that its just a story. The only reason it should not be in this game would be the age 12+ game. Its not the main focus of that story anyway.