The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[milkmustache]

Something more would have to happen to Alleria, separate from the typical Void Elf experience that we know.

The whole concept behind "Void Elf" is them constantly fighting off the corrupting whispers of the Void, defying them even, and using the power of the Void for the good of Azeroth. Alleria was the first elf to do this, sharing her experiences and training all subsequent Void Elves on how to also successfully accomplish this.

So, why would she turn evil all of a sudden from the typical Void whispers? What would that mean for any and all Void Elves if this were to happen?

Would have to be another form of further Void corruption at her.

A common idea early on was that she would become a host for Xal'atath, but that's a weird move IMO. It'd be like Arthas taking Bolvar as a host... I guess it could work, but you're really going to scrap a recognizable villain's model to have them take over a hero's body?

It could have something to do with the Sunwell, but who knows. We'll see in Midnight.

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I still don't understand Beledar.

Its design is so clearly Naaru inspired, it matches so many things we've seen of the Naaru over the decades of the story, its naming scheme is perfectly in line with the Exodar, Xenedar, Genedar, etc., their Hallowfall city Mereldar is named for the first human to receive visions of the light from the Naaru.

But it's a calcified shard of Azeroth?

I don't want to think that this is some form of changed content or altered course. Is it possible that we're seeing the beginning of the Titan conspiracy that was mentioned at Blizzcon '23? Do the Naaru have some vested interest in Azeroth that the Titans deem threatening? Is Archaedes (or whichever watcher) involved to the point that either he is pushing the notion that Beledar is calcified essence of Azeroth or that he truly believes as such?

I know this is all a stretch and partly disregarding things that are being laid out in exposition, but I'm just having a really hard time believing that the end nature of Beledar is a fragment of Azeroth.

A group who is shown to us as being feverishly devout to the Light, in a settlement named after the first human to discover the light via communication with the Naaru, worshipping a massive crystal that resembles other Naaru ships in both form and name.

But it's just calcified essence of Azeroth. ????

[Worldshaper]

If anything, I think Alleria would sacrifice herself for her family. Like, hop into a deadly portal in order to close it, or allow a powerful agent of the Void to possess her and then force it to kill herself by having the stronger will, or something to that degree.

I doubt she'll just "go bad". She's too damn similar to Xal'atath and part of her allure is her continued defiance towards the Void. For once, somebody is close to the brink but doesn't succumb to madness in the Warcraft universe.

She's just strong. Determined. A Void Elf in the truest sense of the word - enduring great hardship in order to fight fire with fire and use the enemy's weapons against itself.

[Nymrohd]

A common idea early on was that she would become a host for Xal'atath, but that's a weird move IMO. It'd be like Arthas taking Bolvar as a host... I guess it could work, but you're really going to scrap a recognizable villain's model to have them take over a hero's body?

It could have something to do with the Sunwell, but who knows. We'll see in Midnight.

- - - Updated - - -

I still don't understand Beledar.

Its design is so clearly Naaru inspired, it matches so many things we've seen of the Naaru over the decades of the story, its naming scheme is perfectly in line with the Exodar, Xenedar, Genedar, etc., their Hallowfall city Mereldar is named for the first human to receive visions of the light from the Naaru.

But it's a calcified shard of Azeroth?

I don't want to think that this is some form of changed content or altered course. Is it possible that we're seeing the beginning of the Titan conspiracy that was mentioned at Blizzcon '23? Do the Naaru have some vested interest in Azeroth that the Titans deem threatening? Is Archaedes (or whichever watcher) involved to the point that either he is pushing the notion that Beledar is calcified essence of Azeroth or that he truly believes as such?

I know this is all a stretch and partly disregarding things that are being laid out in exposition, but I'm just having a really hard time believing that the end nature of Beledar is a fragment of Azeroth.

A group who is shown to us as being feverishly devout to the Light, in a settlement named after the first human to discover the light via communication with the Naaru, worshipping a massive crystal that resembles other Naaru ships in both form and name.

But it's just calcified essence of Azeroth. ????

The original chronicle pretty much says all life came from shards of Light spread around from the original clash of Light and Void; small ones becoming elementals, bigger ones becoming Naaru and the biggest ones becoming World Souls. Maybe we are back to the original chronicle version of the story and World Souls are fundamentally created by the Light. That doesn't mean they are ALIGNED to the Light, just that they were created from it.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

So maybe the draenei ships (Genedar, Exodar, Xenedar) were calcified chunks of Argus' worldsoul?

But that would not explain why the Arathi named it Beledar, if following the same naming device the draenei also used.

Unless some sort of weird draenei and Arathi connection yet to be revealed...

[Worldshaper]

The original chronicle pretty much says all life came from shards of Light spread around from the original clash of Light and Void; small ones becoming elementals, bigger ones becoming Naaru and the biggest ones becoming World Souls. Maybe we are back to the original chronicle version of the story and World Souls are fundamentally created by the Light. That doesn't mean they are ALIGNED to the Light, just that they were created from it.

While I've been hammering on about these Shards of Light for a year now, I think you might be misremembering the rest?

IIRC, Chronicles says that while these Shards did indeed suffuse worlds with life, giving rise to the Elementals, the Naaru and other powerful beings of the Light just sort of coalesced from large clouds of pure Light in the cosmos.

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So maybe the draenei ships (Genedar, Exodar, Xenedar) were calcified chunks of Argus' worldsoul?

But that would not explain why the Arathi named it Beledar, if following the same naming device the draenei also used.

Unless some sort of weird draenei and Arathi connection yet to be revealed...

I wonder if there's anything to connect this stuff with all those colourful crystals in Un'goro, Sholazar, and Ulduar?

Like... did the titan-forged come into possession of "azerite" from different worlds and use their potent energies in their experiments?

Probably a reach but fun to think about.

[Enrif]

So maybe the draenei ships (Genedar, Exodar, Xenedar) were calcified chunks of Argus' worldsoul?

But that would not explain why the Arathi named it Beledar, if following the same naming device the draenei also used.

Unless some sort of weird draenei and Arathi connection yet to be revealed...

The ships the Draenei/Eredar fled from Argus with were not made by the Draenei/Eredar, but the Naaru helped the escape with their ships. So the naming convention is a Naaru thing, not a Draenei thing

[Nymrohd]

While I've been hammering on about these Shards of Light for a year now, I think you might be misremembering the rest?

IIRC, Chronicles says that while these Shards did indeed suffuse worlds with life, giving rise to the Elementals, the Naaru and other powerful beings of the Light just sort of coalesced from large clouds of pure Light in the cosmos.

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I wonder if there's anything to connect this stuff with all those colourful crystals in Un'goro, Sholazar, and Ulduar?

Like... did the titan-forged come into possession of "azerite" from different worlds and use their potent energies in their experiments?

Probably a reach but fun to think about.

I had to quote it recently in Lore so

The cataclysmic birth of the cosmos also flung shards of Light throughout reality. ... Even more extaordinary than the naaru were the colossal titans. Their spirits--known as world-souls--formed deep within the fiery core of a small number of worlds.

I don't know if you have Volume I handy, but it's pages 18-19

[Enrif]

A common idea early on was that she would become a host for Xal'atath, but that's a weird move IMO. It'd be like Arthas taking Bolvar as a host... I guess it could work, but you're really going to scrap a recognizable villain's model to have them take over a hero's body?

It could have something to do with the Sunwell, but who knows. We'll see in Midnight.

- - - Updated - - -

I still don't understand Beledar.

Its design is so clearly Naaru inspired, it matches so many things we've seen of the Naaru over the decades of the story, its naming scheme is perfectly in line with the Exodar, Xenedar, Genedar, etc., their Hallowfall city Mereldar is named for the first human to receive visions of the light from the Naaru.

But it's a calcified shard of Azeroth?

I don't want to think that this is some form of changed content or altered course. Is it possible that we're seeing the beginning of the Titan conspiracy that was mentioned at Blizzcon '23? Do the Naaru have some vested interest in Azeroth that the Titans deem threatening? Is Archaedes (or whichever watcher) involved to the point that either he is pushing the notion that Beledar is calcified essence of Azeroth or that he truly believes as such?

I know this is all a stretch and partly disregarding things that are being laid out in exposition, but I'm just having a really hard time believing that the end nature of Beledar is a fragment of Azeroth.

A group who is shown to us as being feverishly devout to the Light, in a settlement named after the first human to discover the light via communication with the Naaru, worshipping a massive crystal that resembles other Naaru ships in both form and name.

But it's just calcified essence of Azeroth. ????

Both statements can be true.

Beledar is Naaru related.

Beledar is calcified World Soul essence.

The conclusion that relates both together: World Soul essence is made out of light. And let's remember, it was called the "radiant" song.

We have to see, but from the very start of the World Soul Saga, the hints that light is at the core (literally), was there.

[Worldshaper]

I had to quote it recently in Lore so


I don't know if you have Volume I handy, but it's pages 18-19

Yeah but what I'm saying is that the text doesn't say Naaru are born from the Shards.

[Nymrohd]

So maybe the draenei ships (Genedar, Exodar, Xenedar) were calcified chunks of Argus' worldsoul?

But that would not explain why the Arathi named it Beledar, if following the same naming device the draenei also used.

Unless some sort of weird draenei and Arathi connection yet to be revealed...

We can assume the crystal cores of those ships are of Naaru make or perhaps the Naaru just found them or even some allied Light-aligned race helped them shape them (maybe the Apexis?). The actual structures around the crystals should be of Draenei make (since the design matches what exists in Eredath which precedes the arrival of the Naaru) unless of course far more of Draenei civilization came from the Ata'mal crystals than we'd currently assume. The naming probably comes from the Naaru then and likely refers to the crystal cores rather than the ships themselves?

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Yeah but what I'm saying is that the text doesn't say Naaru are born from the Shards.

Hmm

Occasionally, clouds of fractured Light gathered and gave shape to beings of far greater power, of far greater potential. Among these were the naaru (...)
Even more extaordinary than the naaru were the colossal titans. Their spirits--known as world-souls--formed deep within the fiery core of a small number of worlds.

OK I am not a native speaker but how I read this is that the first sentence suggests that the clouds of fractured Light created different types of beings. One of those types are the Naaru, a more extraordinary type are the world souls. Ergo, World souls are formed from clouds of fractured Light. Heck given it suggests there are multiple types of beings, the lesser shards like the Beledar could just be a separate type of "cloud" creation.

[Worldshaper]

We can assume the crystal cores of those ships are of Naaru make or perhaps the Naaru just found them or even some allied Light-aligned race helped them shape them (maybe the Apexis?). The actual structures around the crystals should be of Draenei make (since the design matches what exists in Eredath which precedes the arrival of the Naaru) unless of course far more of Draenei civilization came from the Ata'mal crystals than we'd currently assume. The naming probably comes from the Naaru then and likely refers to the crystal cores rather than the ships themselves?

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Hmm


OK I am not a native speaker but how I read this is that the first sentence suggests that the clouds of fractured Light created different types of beings. One of those types are the Naaru, a more extraordinary type are the world souls. Ergo, World souls are formed from clouds of fractured Light. Heck given it suggests there are multiple types of beings, the lesser shards like the Beledar could just be a separate type of "cloud" creation.

The text you quoted says that worldsouls are the fiery cores of worlds, not formed from the clouds of light.

[Enrif]

OK I am not a native speaker but how I read this is that the first sentence suggests that the clouds of fractured Light created different types of beings. One of those types are the Naaru, a more extraordinary type are the world souls. Ergo, World souls are formed from clouds of fractured Light. Heck given it suggests there are multiple types of beings, the lesser shards like the Beledar could just be a separate type of "cloud" creation.

i can collaborate the same from my version of chronicles. But, we have to consider that the chronicles are "from the titans point of view". So, there might be a truth in it, but there could also be a overstatement of connection.
I think the part of the shards of light creating the elements, naaru and world souls are true. That the titants are among them... we have to see how the story evolves. They could be, as they say, born from world souls, which makes them in a way children of the light. And it currently looks that azeroths world soul has also an affinity for light.

And yet, that doesn't add up. Why then are Titans aligned to Order/Arcane and not the Light like the Naaru? I can excuse the elements for being very small fragments that likely just clinged to some particles of reality and formed among them. But if a moderate amount of a shard of light creates a Naaru, shouldn't a massive amount create a Titan of the Light, instead of Order?

Unless the titans were meddled with by order, or the titans are not born from world souls.

[Joshuaj]

So maybe the draenei ships (Genedar, Exodar, Xenedar) were calcified chunks of Argus' worldsoul?

But that would not explain why the Arathi named it Beledar, if following the same naming device the draenei also used.

Unless some sort of weird draenei and Arathi connection yet to be revealed...

Aren't they of Naaru origin though?

- - - Updated - - -

I had to quote it recently in Lore so


I don't know if you have Volume I handy, but it's pages 18-19

I'll check the book myself.

- - - Updated - - -

Both statements can be true.

Beledar is Naaru related.

Beledar is calcified World Soul essence.

The conclusion that relates both together: World Soul essence is made out of light. And let's remember, it was called the "radiant" song.

We have to see, but from the very start of the World Soul Saga, the hints that light is at the core (literally), was there.

Here is another idea...

A Naaru infused itself with Beledar.

[Nymrohd]

The text you quoted says that worldsouls are the fiery cores of worlds, not formed from the clouds of light.

It says "clouds of fractured Light gathered and gave shape" to "the colossal titans" and then specifies how their spirits form? I guess I am misreading this. It matches how Argus describes his early existence:

It was energy, spinning out into the cosmos.
Blink.
It found warmth near a sun, and a world formed around it to protect it as it grew.

So World Souls are energy spinning out into the cosmos (and protecting themselves by forming a world around them), and that energy would come from clouds of fractured Light. That's how I'd read it. And it would work.

It would even work with the First Ones cosmology; they create the Six Forces, Void and Light clash because they are diametrically opposed. The clash creates the physical realm, the Twisting Nether and seeds the universe with life in different forms. This also matches how Xal'atath describes the war between Light and Void as being older than pretty much everything.

[Enrif]

Here is another idea...

A Naaru infused itself with Beledar.

possible. Yet there were other crystals shown that were also looking like they have a affinity to light. Ar these all naaru? One prime naaru in beledar and normal naaru in the other ones? Not enough information to come to a conclusion.

[Nymrohd]

i can collaborate the same from my version of chronicles. But, we have to consider that the chronicles are "from the titans point of view". So, there might be a truth in it, but there could also be a overstatement of connection.
I think the part of the shards of light creating the elements, naaru and world souls are true. That the titants are among them... we have to see how the story evolves. They could be, as they say, born from world souls, which makes them in a way children of the light. And it currently looks that azeroths world soul has also an affinity for light.

And yet, that doesn't add up. Why then are Titans aligned to Order/Arcane and not the Light like the Naaru? I can excuse the elements for being very small fragments that likely just clinged to some particles of reality and formed among them. But if a moderate amount of a shard of light creates a Naaru, shouldn't a massive amount create a Titan of the Light, instead of Order?

Unless the titans were meddled with by order, or the titans are not born from world souls.

I mean we know that the Titans were meddled with by Order. We know they received their gifts in Zereth Ordos. My assumption remains that Order got to them or at least to Aman'thul, first and convinced them to align with it; Titans may be powerful and intelligent but they may also be naive in their way for all we know. Nothing we do know suggests otherwise what with how Sargeras was fooled and how they act in general. Always felt the Pantheon was modeled after Greek gods and those are childish by design.
And just because they were formed from Light doesn't mean they are of Light in the same way that Elementals or other lesser life also is not Light-aligned. But hey, even elementals seem to have crystal cores.

[Worldshaper]

It says "clouds of fractured Light gathered and gave shape" to "the colossal titans" and then specifies how their spirits form? I guess I am misreading this. It matches how Argus describes his early existence:


So World Souls are energy spinning out into the cosmos (and protecting themselves by forming a world around them), and that energy would come from clouds of fractured Light. That's how I'd read it. And it would work.

It would even work with the First Ones cosmology; they create the Six Forces, Void and Light clash because they are diametrically opposed. The clash creates the physical realm, the Twisting Nether and seeds the universe with life in different forms. This also matches how Xal'atath describes the war between Light and Void as being older than pretty much everything.

It specifically does not say that.

It says:

1. Shards of Light were flung into the cosmos, suffusing worlds with life (primarily Elementals)
2. Clouds of Light would form in the cosmos, and from them, naaru were born
3. Titans were born from worldsouls in the fiery cores of planets

Neither of those three things are one and the same. They are origin stories for three distinct different cosmological beings.

[Enrif]

I mean we know that the Titans were meddled with by Order. We know they received their gifts in Zereth Ordos. My assumption remains that Order got to them or at least to Aman'thul, first and convinced them to align with it; Titans may be powerful and intelligent but they may also be naive in their way for all we know. Nothing we do know suggests otherwise what with how Sargeras was fooled and how they act in general. Always felt the Pantheon was modeled after Greek gods and those are childish by design.
And just because they were formed from Light doesn't mean they are of Light in the same way that Elementals or other lesser life also is not Light-aligned. But hey, even elementals seem to have crystal cores.

Since you mentioned Zereth Ordos, and it is something i just thought about: What if the titans are NOT the pantheon of Order? We know of a Zereth for each cosmic force, and assuming they are somewhat similar to Zereth Mortis, they might have their own Eternal Ones, above the Titans. I know the Titan++ name for the Eternal Ones was later revisited in what they mean, but what if that is true? What if Zereth Ordos has its own Archon, Sire, Queen, Arbiter and so on. And from what we saw, the First Ones are quite titan like in many ways, so who's to say that the true Pantheon of Zereth Ordos did not managed to claim world souls as the first cosmic force, and each titan is subservient to them?

What if the Titans themselves are the conspiracy? That they are just servants to the Greater Order?

i mean that would even reflect somewhat their greek and nordic pantheons in which Zeus/Odin were the children of bigger powers Cronos/Bor. And in Norse Myhtlogy, which the Titans also are inspired by, before there was any thing there was fire and ice (light and shadow).

[milkmustache]

It kind of makes sense if they were to frame everything as overarching Light vs Shadow, then squabbles in between with other forces that are born of those main two.

If the titans are theoretically born of the Light, but then over time formed Order, they're still partially beings of Light. Thus why they've always warred adjacently with Light vs the Legion, the Scourge, and the Void.

Aman'thul has always been curiously related to various forms of the light, and I had proposed the idea once that the conspiracy will be revealed that the Titans were always in alleigence to the Light, so I wonder if that has some actual ground.

The framing of Light & Shadow as the larger grouping with Fel/Disorder, Death and the Void being Shadow, Order, Life and the Light being light, there can be certain forms of the two main forces warring for dominance or influence I suppose. Not literally, but figuratively. As in, the Burning Legion had sort of been the largest threat in that general Evil/Shadow consensus for a long time. We defeated them, and now the Void makes its play.

[Enrif]

It kind of makes sense if they were to frame everything as overarching Light vs Shadow, then squabbles in between with other forces that are born of those main two.

If the titans are theoretically born of the Light, but then over time formed Order, they're still partially beings of Light. Thus why they've always warred adjacently with Light vs the Legion, the Scourge, and the Void.

Aman'thul has always been curiously related to various forms of the light, and I had proposed the idea once that the conspiracy will be revealed that the Titans were always in alleigence to the Light, so I wonder if that has some actual ground.

The framing of Light & Shadow as the larger grouping with Fel/Disorder, Death and the Void being Shadow, Order, Life and the Light being light, there can be certain forms of the two main forces warring for dominance or influence I suppose. Not literally, but figuratively. As in, the Burning Legion had sort of been the largest threat in that general Evil/Shadow consensus for a long time. We defeated them, and now the Void makes its play.

The "light and shadow are the origin of the other forces" can make some sense. Light stands for structure(crystals, only one future in prophecies, "order") and life(healing,"life"), while Shadow stands for variability (all possible timelines, mutations, "fel") and entropy (destruction, "death").