1. #82181
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    Ardenweald, is my thinking. It seems almost custom made fot the Wild Gods and their rebirths. Plus, the Winter Queen being Elune's sister and and everything only really makes sense if they have shared history.

    As for the nature of Elune, I think it's 50/50. Her Light and Shadow properties, including references to the moon, powers over moonlight and starlight, the Night Warrior, etc. make me think she's of the Light.

    But then there's the verdant planet of Elunaria, her potential kinship with the WQ, affection for Eonar and Malorne, and so on. Feels more Life-affiliated, doesn't it.

    I think the description of Naaru in Chronicles is interesting. It does state that Naaru are always looking to protect life, essentially.

    Then there are the shards of Light that suffuse worlds with life. Why is life the natural objective for the Light inside the physical universe? Why not great temples of the Light, crystals and stuff?

    Seems rather fishy.

    Could the method by which the shards of Light spreads Life be that they house powerful Naaru who then use whatever tools they have at their disposal to complete their mission?

    So in this case, Elune could be our guardian Naaru, perhaps accompanied by An'she.
    Why can't she just be a Life goddess with connections to other forces? Heck, why can't she just represent the lunar aspects of Life, especially dreams?

    As for the Dream? I talked about what the Emerald Dream could be with people a bit ago, and I think I have a good idea as to what it could be:

    This is my headcanon: Elune's Realm is likely called "The Dream", and it's linked with the denizens of the universe and their dreams. These dreams serve as reflections of one's mind, of ones imagination, with the most powerful of these dreams being from the Worldsouls, particularly Azeroths.

    The Titans, namely Eonar, likely noticed this connection, and worked with Elune in properly ordering and "shaping" the Prime Worldsouls Dream. Eonar and Freya would work on the layers of Azeroths Dream, and use it as a blueprint for how Life would function across the planet, etc.

    This would explain why the Dream functions the way it does
    And it would also explain why the far reaches of the Dream are seemingly linked with the greater Domain of Life, as well as Ardenweald.
    Last edited by Joshuaj; 2024-11-27 at 06:51 AM.

  2. #82182
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuaj View Post
    Why can't she just be a Life goddess with connections to other forces? Heck, why can't she just represent the lunar aspects of Life, especially dreams?
    I was gonna say, that's most likely what's up. We've got Titans with connections to other forces in Eonar's nature connection, Sargeras's fel connection, and Argus's death connection, and the Winter Queen herself is mainly death with a pinch of nature, so Elune's probably nature first, but a bit of light

    Would explain why folks keep confusing her with a naaru despite not being one

  3. #82183
    Here is an idea.
    What if Elune is a world soul that did not align with Order. She confers with all the Forces and as she claims a sisterhood with Eonar, she similarly claims one with the Winter Queen while she also fosters a strong motherly connection with the Naaru. In the end she ventured into Zereth Vitae and became a Life eternal but she always opposed Aman'thul trying to force allegiance to Order on new World Souls.

    We assume all world souls are members of the Pantheon but that is Aman'thul's side of the story so it may well be biased. Maybe there is a Light aligned World Soul as well (that one from Hearthstone)
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2024-11-27 at 08:38 AM.

  4. #82184
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    -snip-
    Yeah, something similar will probably happen tbh. Though the creation of the cosmos could be different, considering Azeroth is the prime Worldsoul which we don't know what that means yet. If anything, she is very much different than the rest.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Yak View Post
    I hate the First Ones.

    Especially if they embody the six forces, because then why would the Void First One, the embodiment of chaos and possibility, consent to being ordered in the first place?

    It's dumb and bad.
    Same here. But it's not really because of that. Mostly because the idea that there's a pantheon for every force, and then there's beings that are above them is just boring. It seems too structured and ordered, yes, pun intended.

    Oh so we dealt with one Pantheon? Let's go and deal with the next, and the next one. Oh, we ran out of Pantheons? Let's go deal with this First One, then the Next One.

  5. #82185
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Here is an idea.
    What if Elune is a world soul that did not align with Order. She confers with all the Forces and as she claims a sisterhood with Eonar, she similarly claims one with the Winter Queen while she also fosters a strong motherly connection with the Naaru. In the end she ventured into Zereth Vitae and became a Life eternal but she always opposed Aman'thul trying to force allegiance to Order on new World Souls.

    We assume all world souls are members of the Pantheon but that is Aman'thul's side of the story so it may well be biased. Maybe there is a Light aligned World Soul as well (that one from Hearthstone)
    i proposed once a similar idea, that Elune is a "worldsoul" but not from a actual world, but from a moon. Thus weaker than a titan, but still very strong in the grand scheme. And given that worldsouls seem to have heavy light influence, and the part of chronicles that conflate naaru and titans to be of the shards of light, could bind that all together, With the Elune and Naaru connection.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If we somehow do get a void Hunter class, I’ll be the first one to post in this thread to admit my error.
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    I mean, trying to worm out of the way it's the WORLDSOUL saga... yah. It's Azeroth reaching out, not some light fairy.
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  6. #82186
    Quote Originally Posted by Enrif View Post
    i proposed once a similar idea, that Elune is a "worldsoul" but not from a actual world, but from a moon. Thus weaker than a titan, but still very strong in the grand scheme. And given that worldsouls seem to have heavy light influence, and the part of chronicles that conflate naaru and titans to be of the shards of light, could bind that all together, With the Elune and Naaru connection.
    Could be that big shards like the Beledar are how Prime Naaru are born and X'era is a similar shard that was close to Elune.
    Which would mean that the Beledar could be a Prime Naaru egg?

    Wild idea but what if the Beledar ends up being a very angry X'era reborn? What if it works like a phylactery for Prime Naaru? Could give us a tie between Yrel, X'era and the Emperor for a future Avaloren expansion.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2024-11-27 at 09:07 AM.

  7. #82187
    Herald of the Titans Worldshaper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuaj View Post
    Why can't she just be a Life goddess with connections to other forces? Heck, why can't she just represent the lunar aspects of Life, especially dreams?

    As for the Dream? I talked about what the Emerald Dream could be with people a bit ago, and I think I have a good idea as to what it could be:

    This is my headcanon: Elune's Realm is likely called "The Dream", and it's linked with the denizens of the universe and their dreams. These dreams serve as reflections of one's mind, of ones imagination, with the most powerful of these dreams being from the Worldsouls, particularly Azeroths.

    The Titans, namely Eonar, likely noticed this connection, and worked with Elune in properly ordering and "shaping" the Prime Worldsouls Dream. Eonar and Freya would work on the layers of Azeroths Dream, and use it as a blueprint for how Life would function across the planet, etc.

    This would explain why the Dream functions the way it does
    And it would also explain why the far reaches of the Dream are seemingly linked with the greater Domain of Life, as well as Ardenweald.
    Just to be clear, I'm not fully convinced either way. Elune remains an enigma to us all.

    That said, I don't find her light/darkness and lunar/starlight theme a very strong argument for very supposed association with the force of Life.

    If anything, it reminds me a lot of how the Light is seemingly always looking out for Life.

    It's almost as if Light is the ultimate good, and on its side you have Life one peg down the hierarchical ladder, with Order being one peg further down but more closer to being neutral.

    Then on the other end of the spectrum, Shadow stands in opposition to the Light, with Death one peg below it and finally Disorder as a more neutral agent of chaos below that.

    If you think about it, there are recurring themes that seem to support this.

    The Light is typically wielded by mortals in defense of the living, or expressed through powerful beings like the Naaru, also seeking to spread Life. Similarly, Order seems to be a productive force that wants to build and grow. It doesn't necessarily consider individual lifeforms important, but it wants Life, beauty, and Light to prosper. It prefers civilization over oblivion.

    Then you have Shadow and Death, both of which frequently speak of annihilation, the abyss, oblivion, the end of things, and endless Void, and so on. Sure, the Void and Death seemed at odds in the Windrunner comic, but that might have been more speficially about the Jailer, who clearly wanted to change the status quo and just end everything. He feels like an infiltrator of Death rather than its true master, tbh.

    So anyway, I like your ideas about the Dream.

    I think it's possible all planets with life have a connection to the "Shadowlands" and the "Lifelands", if you will, as part of the natural cycle of Life and Death, while Azeroth speficially got the Emerald Dream sculpted for it by Eonar, Elune and Freya.

    Essentially they tapped into Primal forces of the cosmos to obtain a way to harness the energies of life in defense of the worldsoul. Shaping life, not just continents, so that Azeroth wouldn't stand defenseless against other forces.

    That's also why I like to look at Elune as a sort of agent sent by the Light to ensure all of this goes well. Perhaps a naaru or another type of being that administers things on Azeroth.

    Maybe from within the Beledar, or the moon. Maybe she's a part of Xal'atath which she has suppressed and won't come to peace with. IDK.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Could be that big shards like the Beledar are how Prime Naaru are born and X'era is a similar shard that was close to Elune.
    Which would mean that the Beledar could be a Prime Naaru egg?

    Wild idea but what if the Beledar ends up being a very angry X'era reborn? What if it works like a phylactery for Prime Naaru? Could give us a tie between Yrel, X'era and the Emperor for a future Avaloren expansion.
    On a slightly related note, just as the story of the Earth Mother is probably a legend with elements of truth in it, the same might be true for the story of Zao Sunseeker and the Five Suns.

    While it probably is trying to explain how the one current sun came to be, it could be revealing to us that there were four other similar celestial objects in the skies above Azeroth, once.

    Naaru? Beledar-like vessels?

    Was the Beledar shot out of the sky by the Old Gods, or worse the Titans? Does it house 4 Naaru within it, or are there other "Beledars" strewn across Azeroth?

    Shit, did they turn into Old Gods? Did the Titans do something really bad?

    Are the Old Gods just an illusion, and are they in fact imprisoned Naaru?

    I should probably take a step outside for a min.

  8. #82188
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    Just to be clear, I'm not fully convinced either way. Elune remains an enigma to us all.

    That said, I don't find her light/darkness and lunar/starlight theme a very strong argument for very supposed association with the force of Life.

    If anything, it reminds me a lot of how the Light is seemingly always looking out for Life.

    It's almost as if Light is the ultimate good, and on its side you have Life one peg down the hierarchical ladder, with Order being one peg further down but more closer to being neutral.

    Then on the other end of the spectrum, Shadow stands in opposition to the Light, with Death one peg below it and finally Disorder as a more neutral agent of chaos below that.

    If you think about it, there are recurring themes that seem to support this.

    The Light is typically wielded by mortals in defense of the living, or expressed through powerful beings like the Naaru, also seeking to spread Life. Similarly, Order seems to be a productive force that wants to build and grow. It doesn't necessarily consider individual lifeforms important, but it wants Life, beauty, and Light to prosper. It prefers civilization over oblivion.

    Then you have Shadow and Death, both of which frequently speak of annihilation, the abyss, oblivion, the end of things, and endless Void, and so on. Sure, the Void and Death seemed at odds in the Windrunner comic, but that might have been more speficially about the Jailer, who clearly wanted to change the status quo and just end everything. He feels like an infiltrator of Death rather than its true master, tbh.

    So anyway, I like your ideas about the Dream.

    I think it's possible all planets with life have a connection to the "Shadowlands" and the "Lifelands", if you will, as part of the natural cycle of Life and Death, while Azeroth speficially got the Emerald Dream sculpted for it by Eonar, Elune and Freya.

    Essentially they tapped into Primal forces of the cosmos to obtain a way to harness the energies of life in defense of the worldsoul. Shaping life, not just continents, so that Azeroth wouldn't stand defenseless against other forces.

    That's also why I like to look at Elune as a sort of agent sent by the Light to ensure all of this goes well. Perhaps a naaru or another type of being that administers things on Azeroth.

    Maybe from within the Beledar, or the moon. Maybe she's a part of Xal'atath which she has suppressed and won't come to peace with. IDK.

    - - - Updated - - -



    On a slightly related note, just as the story of the Earth Mother is probably a legend with elements of truth in it, the same might be true for the story of Zao Sunseeker and the Five Suns.

    While it probably is trying to explain how the one current sun came to be, it could be revealing to us that there were four other similar celestial objects in the skies above Azeroth, once.

    Naaru? Beledar-like vessels?

    Was the Beledar shot out of the sky by the Old Gods, or worse the Titans? Does it house 4 Naaru within it, or are there other "Beledars" strewn across Azeroth?

    Shit, did they turn into Old Gods? Did the Titans do something really bad?

    Are the Old Gods just an illusion, and are they in fact imprisoned Naaru?

    I should probably take a step outside for a min.
    I'd say maybe they remember the Pantheon standing around Azeroth but they are six? Maybe they did not sll stand around.
    Naaru turn into pure void rather than the flesh based corruption of the Old Gods

  9. #82189
    Herald of the Titans Worldshaper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I'd say maybe they remember the Pantheon standing around Azeroth but they are six? Maybe they did not sll stand around.
    Naaru turn into pure void rather than the flesh based corruption of the Old Gods
    Hmm...

    Exodar - could mean the external ship. The satellite leaving the Tempest in order to go to Azeroth.

    Genedar - could mean the ship that symbolises the beginning of the age of the Draenei (as Eredar crashlanded on Draenor).

    Xenedar - could mean the ship of strangers, something foreign and alien, describing the Lightforged or simply the fact that this vessel was nit part of the group crashing om Draenor.

    Beledar - could mean the ship that acts as a bell or a beacon of sorts. Or simply the ship below, but that feels too on the nose. The beautiful and the fair perhaps, or lordly. Lots of potential matches in the etymology here. But my best bet is that it has to do with it acting like a beacon, perhaps both in summoning the Arathi to it, but also in the way it shines radiantly below, guides their way in life, and... maybe had something to do with the Radiant Song? IIRC, Anduin figured out they are one and the same.

    So a naaru vessel starts summoning champions of the Light to it 15 years ago, and then later on it perhaps calls out to champions of Azeroth like Anduin and Thrall. Perhaps it realises the Arathi were struggling in Hallowfall and needed reinforcements, or maybe Sargeras' sword added another level of severity to the whole ordeal?

    Either way, it's almost like this vessel is summoning light-affiliated champions from across Azeroth in order to defend the worldsoul in the upcoming Renilash.

    It feels very unlikely that the Beledar is just an inanimate chunk of Azerite with all of this in mind.

  10. #82190
    The Undying Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samin View Post
    Like I said; An underground expansion makes zero sense without Undermine.

    Now let's see if Blizzard drops the Tinker mid-expansion (11.1.5-11.1.7). I'm tilting towards yes.

  11. #82191
    Over 9000! Golden Yak's Avatar
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    It says right there, New Content & System Updates. What else could that mean.

  12. #82192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Yak View Post
    It says right there, New Content & System Updates. What else could that mean.
    This was the roadmap prior to 10.1.5 hitting the PTR;



    So yeah, we'll see.

  13. #82193
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    I wonder if, come The Last Titan, we will see 2 groups of Keepers. One in support of the titans and their goal(s) and the other allying with us. Would be cool to see the Dragon Aspects fight against their "creators" in this way.

    For sure Tyr would ally with us, and for sure Odyn would lead the group allied to the titans.

    Perhaps a reactivated Archaedas would also ally with us? It's already implied that Azeroth's worldsoul was affecting him.

  14. #82194
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    I wonder if, come The Last Titan, we will see 2 groups of Keepers. One in support of the titans and their goal(s) and the other allying with us. Would be cool to see the Dragon Aspects fight against their "creators" in this way.

    For sure Tyr would ally with us, and for sure Odyn would lead the group allied to the titans.

    Perhaps a reactivated Archaedas would also ally with us? It's already implied that Azeroth's worldsoul was affecting him.
    Tyr vs Odyn civil war has been in the cards since DF, I feel like it was heavily teased there and kind of locked in when it was decided Tyr wouldn't be reset (per Metzen). If Tyr came back factory reset I can see him turning bad/turning to Titans as a twist, but not the Tyr that has been through everything and feels guilt.

    This questline heavily implied that Archaedas would side with us, yeah. Then it's a crapshoot on which of the Ulduar keepers would side with us vs with Odyn. I can see Mim going bad solely due to logic/programming. Then there is Dorn himself.

    It would also be nice to see the guys in Uldum be brought back as they were heavily wasted in Cata.
    Last edited by Cheezits; 2024-11-27 at 03:40 PM.

  15. #82195
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Could be that big shards like the Beledar are how Prime Naaru are born and X'era is a similar shard that was close to Elune.
    Which would mean that the Beledar could be a Prime Naaru egg?

    Wild idea but what if the Beledar ends up being a very angry X'era reborn? What if it works like a phylactery for Prime Naaru? Could give us a tie between Yrel, X'era and the Emperor for a future Avaloren expansion.
    That the Beledar houses a Prime Naaru is a possibility, but i don't think it would be X'era, as she died shortly before the stab, but the beledar was down there long before that. It might house a complete new Prime Naaru.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If we somehow do get a void Hunter class, I’ll be the first one to post in this thread to admit my error.
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    I mean, trying to worm out of the way it's the WORLDSOUL saga... yah. It's Azeroth reaching out, not some light fairy.
    Enforcer (Warden/Spellbreaker) Class Idea , Naga using Worgen Rig Mockup, Blizz Class Survey

  16. #82196
    Quote Originally Posted by Enrif View Post
    That the Beledar houses a Prime Naaru is a possibility, but i don't think it would be X'era, as she died shortly before the stab, but the beledar was down there long before that. It might house a complete new Prime Naaru.
    Yeah that was my first idea. But just saying, imagine if these huge shards are like a lich's phylactery for Prime Naaru; when they die, their consciousness would travel to the closest such chrysalis (and due to Illidan's portal, the closest for her was on Azeroth) and they reincarnate through it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    I wonder if, come The Last Titan, we will see 2 groups of Keepers. One in support of the titans and their goal(s) and the other allying with us. Would be cool to see the Dragon Aspects fight against their "creators" in this way.

    For sure Tyr would ally with us, and for sure Odyn would lead the group allied to the titans.

    Perhaps a reactivated Archaedas would also ally with us? It's already implied that Azeroth's worldsoul was affecting him.
    I think the Pantheon itself might be split in half. I expect Eonar and Aggramar to be on our side. Aman'thul is clearly on the opposition. That leaves three of them; I expect Iridikron to somehow kill at least one of them.

  17. #82197
    I think Iridikron will kill Khaz'goroth, otherwise we have two earth-themed (potential) baddies.

  18. #82198
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    I think Iridikron will kill Khaz'goroth, otherwise we have two earth-themed (potential) baddies.
    Yeah, that would make sense. Norgannon is the most clearly Order-aligned after Aman'thul so it would be one of Khaz'goroth and Golganneth and Khaz makes the most sense.
    I kind of expect the last Titan to be Norgannon. Eonar, Aggramar and Sargeras I could also see surviving but no longer identifying as Titans. But I hope one of the Order-aligned Titans survives so there is a leader for a future Order enemy faction that is instantly recognizable and is part of the story.

  19. #82199
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    I wonder if, come The Last Titan, we will see 2 groups of Keepers. One in support of the titans and their goal(s) and the other allying with us. Would be cool to see the Dragon Aspects fight against their "creators" in this way.

    For sure Tyr would ally with us, and for sure Odyn would lead the group allied to the titans.

    Perhaps a reactivated Archaedas would also ally with us? It's already implied that Azeroth's worldsoul was affecting him.
    Who would really side with Odyn though, Mabye just Hodir?

    Thorim is super close to us, Mimiron is crazy so he could go either way just to test stuff, Freya is all about nature so isn’t likely to fall in line, Archaedas should be loyal to Tyr.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  20. #82200
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Who would really side with Odyn though, Mabye just Hodir?

    Thorim is super close to us, Mimiron is crazy so he could go either way just to test stuff, Freya is all about nature so isn’t likely to fall in line, Archaedas should be loyal to Tyr.
    I think Hodir will be regretful but go with Aman'thul, Mim will side with him for science, Norgannon because of how close the Arcane ties with Order (and also so there is an Arcane-themed villain like in Wrath) then Golganeth is a wild card. Everyone else should side with us from the start or will get there fairly quickly.

    Golganeth is basically the ONLY way Kalimdor Horde can get a tie to this story, through the elements/shamanism, so I can see him allying. I guess Khaz too but as I said I think he will get wrecked by Iridikron and maybe get his power stolen so Iri can become Deathwing 2.

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