The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Eeram]

I’m at work right now so I can’t really look into this but I had a random thought. Is there any chance the last titan could also be referring to the hearthstone titan? The paladin one I can’t remember her name. But she’s a holy based titan lots of good an virtuous symbolism. Is there any chance we find out she’s the “emperor” for the arathi? They are hyper fixated on the light an what not. It could be what catapults is into that storyline

[Ersula]

I’m at work right now so I can’t really look into this but I had a random thought. Is there any chance the last titan could also be referring to the hearthstone titan? The paladin one I can’t remember her name. But she’s a holy based titan lots of good an virtuous symbolism. Is there any chance we find out she’s the “emperor” for the arathi? They are hyper fixated on the light an what not. It could be what catapults is into that storyline

Maybe, but I think it probably refers to Azeroth, and the other Titans trying to turn her into a Titan. Xal'atath being a part of Azeroth the Titans removed is consistent thematically with what we're learning about the Titans in Dragonflight & the War Within.

Wait, I just realized the previous Fragment quests told us Azeroth isn't just a world soul, she's can create other world souls. So the Last Titan could be Azeroth's offspring.

[Eeram]

Maybe, but I think it probably refers to Azeroth, and the other Titans trying to turn her into a Titan. Xal'atath being a part of Azeroth the Titans removed is consistent thematically with what we're learning about the Titans in Dragonflight & the War Within.

Wait, I just realized the previous Fragment quests told us Azeroth isn't just a world soul, she's can create other world souls. So the Last Titan could be Azeroth's offspring.

Well I feel like sometimes the expansion names could mean multiple things.
Battle for Azeroth was horde vs alliance but it was also us trying to save Azeroth
The war within has multiple meanings behind it
I thought I had more… but maybe not. lol

[Joshuaj]

So, on this - I really had trouble conceptualising how he wouldn't just get smooshed on their return. He was very self-assured and even seems entirely unconcerned about the threat posed to Azeroth by Xal'atath. Then I saw a thread over on reddit yesterday that sparked a thought, and that got me going full bore down a bit of an unhinged rabbit hole of speculation based on TWW titan disc lore drops.

We now know a bit about the Worldcore, the manyfold, and the thraegar phenomenon occurring when the rocky dwarf folk dug a little too deep. The latter being, in effect, a symptom of Azeroth lashing out at the birdcage the titans constructed around it.

We also know that earth-aligned dragons are rather susceptable to underground whispers. Case in point is Iridikron's mirror character - ChinDude and his merry band of tentacles. Iridikron also likes to dig holes in the ground, but rather than growing tentacles in uncomfortable places, he just so happens to be hyperfixated on Azeroth and his goal of freeing it from Titan influence. With excessive force.

Now that we know Azeroth is a) incarcerated by the Titans, and b) not a fan of the fun police, well...

Hear me out. Thraegar. Iridikron. <The Dimonte Dragon>.

Then just toss him into the Worldcore at the heart of Azeroth's power, and I reckon he could punch a Titan or two in the nads. I doubt we'll fight the Titans ourselves though - I reckon ol' stoneface will be a recurring thorn that we ally with the Titans to overcome, but over the patch cadence we start to experience tension over their different set of ethics (inability to feel empathy'll do that). Before the murder hobos turn on them, though, we'll get the surprise drop of our armless buddy's rhinestone reinvigoration and he'll kill Aman'thul or something for shock value. We then have to chase him through the Manyfold and right to the world soul as the finale to the expansion, where we have to fight him in his new role as as the literal avatar of the last titan's power.

That's...exactly what I was implying lmaooo.

Literally nothing is stopping him from consuming the Worldsouls power for himself. Heck, DF literally talks about how Iridikron has an insatiable hunger. Maybe he wants to claim the power for himself in order to dismantle the Titans and all other external forces. Maybe that'll be the thing to basically push him and go "Yeah, this world shall remain primal and natural, and those that dare try to mess with it shall stand against me".

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Like, I get that the Titan's aren't good people, and I'm sure we'll deal with them in the expac, but Iridikron is not a nice guy, and he would definitely not team up with us.

[Merryck]

Vendetta? Metzen was the one that created the Titans lore in the first place, ever. He is simply finishing the story he started as he always intended (and seeds were planted ever since the beginning).

Metzen wrote Chronicles to codify Warcraft lore, in which the Titans were written as benevolent beings. The retcon that it was written from the Titans perspective, and all the revelations in Shadowlands and Dragonflight, were devised when he was in retirement. And he's said himself that he's had very little influence over The War Within so far.

I almost expect a complete trajectory shift starting in Midnight in which the Titans return to being, at least, morally grey.

[Ersula]

And he's said himself that he's had very little influence over The War Within so far.

I almost expect a complete trajectory shift starting in Midnight in which the Titans return to being, at least, morally grey.

You all are taking his comments about the War Within being mostly complete at the time of him *announcing* his position as if he had no influence until that moment. Those were made at Blizzcon & we (retroactively) knew was back working on WoW almost a full year before that.

The Titans & Dragonflights are not Metzen's baby since nearly all that lore was written by the WoW team, not the Warcraft 3 team. He was writing about the history of Draenor & the Scourge while the WoW team was writing all the other lore. I doubt Metzen has any emotional attachment to the Titans.

I think the Titans are already morally grey. Besides the conflict between Aman'thul & Freya, most of these questionable decisions were made by the keepers in the Titan's absence, not the Titans themselves.

[Joshuaj]

Metzen wrote Chronicles to codify Warcraft lore, in which the Titans were written as benevolent beings. The retcon that it was written from the Titans perspective, and all the revelations in Shadowlands and Dragonflight, were devised when he was in retirement. And he's said himself that he's had very little influence over The War Within so far.

I almost expect a complete trajectory shift starting in Midnight in which the Titans return to being, at least, morally grey.

My guy...

Metzen's not gonna do a complete 180 on literally everything being built up. That's not how it works.

[Timester]

Metzen wrote Chronicles to codify Warcraft lore, in which the Titans were written as benevolent beings. The retcon that it was written from the Titans perspective, and all the revelations in Shadowlands and Dragonflight, were devised when he was in retirement. And he's said himself that he's had very little influence over The War Within so far.

I almost expect a complete trajectory shift starting in Midnight in which the Titans return to being, at least, morally grey.

And yet, even before Chronicles, we have many Titanic facilities showing that they are "benevolents" to their own plans. They were always neutral with grand plans of making new Titans and don't care about anything else. The discs are just saying what was imply ever since Ulduar.

My guy...

Metzen's not gonna do a complete 180 on literally everything being built up. That's not how it works.

Yeah, he is a guy if someone appears with cool ideas, he is more than happy of accept them. For example, the Cosmic Charter was entirely created by Kosak.

[Teriz]

You all are taking his comments about the War Within being mostly complete at the time of him *announcing* his position as if he had no influence until that moment. Those were made at Blizzcon & we (retroactively) knew was back working on WoW almost a full year before that.

The Titans & Dragonflights are not Metzen's baby since nearly all that lore was written by the WoW team, not the Warcraft 3 team. He was writing about the history of Draenor & the Scourge while the WoW team was writing all the other lore. I doubt Metzen has any emotional attachment to the Titans.

I think the Titans are already morally grey. Besides the conflict between Aman'thul & Freya, most of these questionable decisions were made by the keepers in the Titan's absence, not the Titans themselves.

Speaking on this, I have a feeling that the Goblins in Khaz Algar, Gazlowe, and the Undermine patch is Metzen’s influence on TWW. Gazlowe and Undermine are very much old school Warcraft 3 material.

[Xilurm]

You all are taking his comments about the War Within being mostly complete at the time of him *announcing* his position as if he had no influence until that moment. Those were made at Blizzcon & we (retroactively) knew was back working on WoW almost a full year before that.

The Titans & Dragonflights are not Metzen's baby since nearly all that lore was written by the WoW team, not the Warcraft 3 team. He was writing about the history of Draenor & the Scourge while the WoW team was writing all the other lore. I doubt Metzen has any emotional attachment to the Titans.

I think the Titans are already morally grey. Besides the conflict between Aman'thul & Freya, most of these questionable decisions were made by the keepers in the Titan's absence, not the Titans themselves.

WoW was being worked on from 1999 till 2004. That was at the same time was Warcraft 3. Who else but Metzen would write for it? At least the background lore. It's not like they had such a big team.

[Worldshaper]

I think it's a bit dishonest to suggest the Titans had always been presented as neutral or even bad.

While they were meant to be Gods and creators, and therefore by definition a bit lofty, they were definitely forces for good.

But they were given agency through their many "avatars," in their absence.

Tyr defending the humans and sacrificing himself.

Freya spreading life.

Ra doing his best to contain Y'shaarj's evil.

Hell, the Dragon Aspects protecting all of us.

The further down the ladder you get, the easier it gets for us to relate to the Pantheon. But overall clearly a force for good. All those actions I just mentioned were meant to represent the Titans' ambitions.

I think it's helpful to think if them as Romans, except in Warcraft the people conquered throughout Europe, Africa and the Middle East have been replaced by legitimate monsters in the form of Old Gods, Faceless Ones, Aqir, etc. So there isn't really even any room to argue that "sure, Rome did give us aqueducts, roads, and safety, but what of the people that lived here before?".

I definitely feel like the iffy aspects of the Pantheon are later additions.

[Nymrohd]

I will never understand where this idea that the Titans are benevolent came from. The first time they seemed relevant in WoW was in Ulduar when they were planning to kill all of us "for the greater good"

What, Metzen was not involved even with Wrath now?

[Merryck]

I will never understand where this idea that the Titans are benevolent came from. The first time they seemed relevant in WoW was in Ulduar when they were planning to kill all of us "for the greater good"

What, Metzen was not involved even with Wrath now?

Chronicles. The book written by Metzen (and Matt Burns) to codify the Warcraft canon. And in the first few pages of Chronicles, it is written "The Pantheon vowed to maintain and protect all of these [ordered] worlds, even those that did not contain a slumbering spirit" and "... the titans had sworn to protect living things whenever possible." They are explicitly written to be on our side.

[Worldshaper]

I will never understand where this idea that the Titans are benevolent came from. The first time they seemed relevant in WoW was in Ulduar when they were planning to kill all of us "for the greater good"

What, Metzen was not involved even with Wrath now?

The book "Mythology of the Titans" from patch 1,13,0 be like: Am I a joke to you?

No one knows exactly how the universe began. Some theorize that a catastrophic cosmic explosion sent the infinite worlds spinning out into the vastness of the Great Dark - worlds that would one day bear life-forms of wondrous and terrible diversity. Others believe that the universe, as it exists, was created as a whole by a singular, all-powerful entity.

Though the exact origins of the chaotic universe remain unclear, it is clear that a race of powerful beings arose to bring order to the various worlds and ensure a safe future for the beings that would follow in their footsteps.

The Titans, colossal, metallic-skinned gods from the far reaches of the cosmos, came forward and set to work on the worlds they encountered. They shaped the form of their worlds by raising mighty mountains and dredging out vast seas.

They breathed skies and raging atmospheres into being - all part of their unfathomable, far-sighted plan to create order out of chaos. They even empowered primitive races to tend to their works and maintain the integrity of their respective worlds.

The Titans, ruled by an elite sect known as the Pantheon, brought order to a hundred million worlds scattered throughout the Great Dark Beyond during the first ages of creation.

The benevolent Pantheon, seeking to safeguard their structured worlds, was ever vigilant against the threat of attack from the vile, extra-dimensional entities of the Twisting Nether. The Nether, an ethereal dimension of chaotic magics that connected the myriad worlds of the universe together, was home to an infinite number of malefic, demonic beings, who sought only to destroy life and devour the energies of the living universe.

[Golden Yak]

The earliest Titan lore had them fighting demons and beings of chaos and darkness like the Old Gods. They foster life and order and peace. They might sacrifice some to save the many. Pragmatic, but ultimately well-meaning.

I think their efforts with Azeroth is to raise her as a Titan to help bring order to the universe, driving back the Void and demons on a cosmic scale. A goal of peace and prosperity overall. But I believe that Azeroth becoming a Titan will mean the end of the planet, and all life on it. The Titans probably view it as a sacrifice for a greater good.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Frankly, the titans being amoral lawful neutral outsiders has been effectively canon since WotLK. Legion was the only noteworthy deviation from that portrayal. Slapping "moral ambiguity" (i.e. surface-level "everybody's actually Le Bad because uhhhhhh free will or smth, I believed my parents when they said the Pope ran over my dog") on the Light annoys me to no end, but the titans being Moorcock-style embodiments of order is reasonable and precedented.

What will be more insufferable is this: because Blizzard has shown time and again that they have no restraint, they are most likely going to just either kill the Pantheon off except for the token "good one" (most likely Eonar) or have all except the token "bad one" (most likely Aman'Thul) completely throw off the titan mantle to adopt Anduinism instead of have them pull a partial Algalon and retreat into space to reevaluate and test mortals or something like that. Blizzard has a major problem with knocking out every part of the lore that dares to be too interesting, and there's nowhere this is truer than when they need raid bosses.

[Merryck]

The book "Mythology of the Titans" from patch 1,13,0 be like: Am I a joke to you?

Beautiful. And Chronicles is consistent with 90% of what's written here.

[Joshuaj]

The book "Mythology of the Titans" from patch 1,13,0 be like: Am I a joke to you?

Benevolent =/= Being pure good.

And besides, the book was written by Azerothians, who see the Titans actions as good. They don't know their the Titans true intentions for the world.

[Worldshaper]

Benevolent =/= Being pure good.

And besides, the book was written by Azerothians, who see the Titans actions as good. They don't know their the Titans true intentions for the world.

I'm more concerned with addressing how the Titans have been presented to us players, though. From our POV, they have undeniably been the good guys in the cosmos.

All that said, I agree that things took a turn with Algalon. Let's just put it this way: if presented with the classic moral trolley dilemma, the Titans would probably kill a million people to save one (the worldsoul). But ironically, they seem to be doing it so that they may save even more people in the long run. They work on such a galactic scale, to them it's probably like moving chess pieces around. "Oh no, there goes another world. Ah, well. At least these 500 worlds were saved as a result."

We are ants to them, but they are trying to protect the local environment necessary for us ants to thrive. While forces like Disorder, Death and Void literally just wants oblivion or servitude for all of us.

We humans do the same thing all the time. We have no problem euthanising a million chicken if it means we can put a stop to some bird flu outbreak, or kill a billion billion microorganisms so we can build something nice. Animal testing to create medicine is another example.

[Joshuaj]

I'm more concerned with addressing how the Titans have been presented to us players, though. From our POV, they have undeniably been the good guys in the cosmos.

All that said, I agree that things took a turn with Algalon. Let's just put it this way: if presented with the classic moral trolley dilemma, the Titans would probably kill a million people to save one (the worldsoul). But ironically, they seem to be doing it so that they may save even more people in the long run. They work on such a galactic scale, to them it's probably like moving chess pieces around. "Oh no, there goes another world. Ah, well. At least these 500 worlds were saved as a result."

We are ants to them, but they are trying to protect the local environment necessary for us ants to thrive. While forces like Disorder, Death and Void literally just wants oblivion or servitude for all of us.

We humans do the same thing all the time. We have no problem euthanising a million chicken if it means we can put a stop to some bird flu outbreak, or kill a billion billion microorganisms so we can build something nice. Animal testing to create medicine is another example.

Tbf here, it was only the Jailer that wanted us to serve him. Everyone else in Death was pretty chill.

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Also, ants to them? Oh please...

I can take them. After the whole Jailer ordeal, they ain't so tough.