"We will soon be in a world in which a man may be howled down for saying that two and two make four."
— G.K. Chesterton
You hate dracthyr because you hate scalies, I hate dracthyr because I'm a scalie and know naga are better. We are not the same.
Metzen was not exclusively responsible for Warcraft lore. Writing Reign of Chaos & Frozen Throne was his full time job. That's the whole thing. That's why the Titans & Dragonflights are completely absent from Warcraft 3.~ Two completely different teams of people.
~(just to defer the pedantic comments: Yes, Metzen himself probably wrote the original origin myth, including the Titans & the associated terminology. For example, Sargaras is called the Dark Titan in Warcraft 3, in the only use of that word in the entire game. When I say absent from Warcraft 3 I mean all the details about Titans making constructs & fascilities, any establishment of what they do outside of the origin myth, was almost completely the creation of the writers working on the World of Warcraft team.)
Honestly the fact that the Dragonflights weren't involved in Archamonde's attack on Hyjal should be considered a massive plot hole.Considering the Titans as cosmic horrors rather than benevolent saviors seems to be consistent with Metzen's writing, cause Metzen was writing for Wotlk. But Metzen also does lean into these things being a matter of perspective: Good because they did stop the Old Gods from taking over. Bad because they prioritize themselves. Uncaring gods. Existentialism.
Actually when you take all this into consideration, it becomes clear the Eternal Ones & First Ones seem to be trying to recreate what Metzen did with the original origin myth before WoW made the Titans' lore pedestrian: A more mysterious creator after they took away the mystery of the Titans.
Last edited by Ersula; 2024-11-30 at 12:30 AM.
The reason I say this isn't just because you're excited, but because you talk like quest text trying to hype up the Jailer during SL. You have a habit of obsessing over how cool you think the new cosmology is, completely eating up the hype, and sometimes doing so while dismissing more well-established elements of the lore that people have grown to like. When the new cosmology is criticized or alternatives are suggested, many of your responses range from "well, you might be saying that they should do this thing instead, but this contradicts [thing interlocutor is suggesting be replaced in the first place]" to "well, [story element] is required for [story that nobody who likes story element would like]". You can see why people might get a bit exasperated.
"We will soon be in a world in which a man may be howled down for saying that two and two make four."
— G.K. Chesterton
You hate dracthyr because you hate scalies, I hate dracthyr because I'm a scalie and know naga are better. We are not the same.
Respectfully, a lot of y'alls "alternatives" suck.
Anyway, that's irrelevant, and your critique doesn't address the fact that I think we should face off against the Titans, and that we're no longer "ants" to them, or at least not in terms of relevance and whatnot. Power wise, we're usually "ants", but with enough amps, we're shown to handle Titan lvl beings.
When you suggested that there's an eternal one for each cosmic force and there's one called void or shadow my eyes rolled so far back in my head they nearly didn't come back down.
Respectfully, the pot is calling the kettle black.
Can't wait for another cool burger king crown to power us up.
Last edited by Nibelheimy; 2024-11-30 at 12:47 AM.
You mean First One?
Also, read Chronicle 4. I'm only going off what that said, and I've questioned it's absolution in terms of how the Progenitors are named before.
- - - Updated - - -
I can send you a screenshot of the page talking about the First Ones if you'd like. I have Chronicle 4.
I couldn't care. As much as you'd love to twist even an insult into discussion about them. The topic is uninteresting, dull and irrelevant to me
My point is don't come into the forum saying most people's speculations are dogshit. It's bad enough we have to put up with almost constant de-railment of the thread back into the shadowlands and first ones without you attempting to insult everybody over their ideas.
Say it to the person who actually brought it up, not me. The only reason I brought up SL even remotely was to use an example as to why I think the Titans aren't so "big" in actuality (I prefer using the Jailer over Argus and N'Zoth, as he's actually a Titan lvl being and not a "low tier Titan lvl" being or something that's debatably Titan lvl).
Suffice to say, calling us ants to the Titans is silly, and I explained why.
Last edited by Joshuaj; 2024-11-30 at 01:16 AM.
The "seventh" force is going to be the mortals/azeroth and our goal is to keep balance in the universe preventing any one force from totally over taking material reality which is why we (the mortals) can use any other power source. Also void is the source of free will due to the whole multiple timelines thing
All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.
Last edited by AOL Instant Messenger; 2024-11-30 at 03:10 AM.
"We will soon be in a world in which a man may be howled down for saying that two and two make four."
— G.K. Chesterton
You hate dracthyr because you hate scalies, I hate dracthyr because I'm a scalie and know naga are better. We are not the same.
Yeah, like I said, only in their relation to Warcraft's origin Myth. (They also call it "The Ordering" which you were just berating me for calling it several pages ago.) Creating armies of constructs that would eventually become sapient races, making the Dragonflights, building fascilities to fight the old gods, Worldsouls in general, that was all the WoW team's doing. The Warcraft 3 manual only mentions the Titans making Azeroth, (???) "empowering the sentient races" (???), imprisoning the Elemental Lords and Sargeras betraying them. Only half of those things actually happened in the current lore.
The likely reason they're doing "the worldsoul saga" because Metzen (and I) are sick & tired of that entire aspect of the lore, so they're putting it to bed.
Last edited by Ersula; 2024-11-30 at 04:00 AM.
I berated you in regards to you saying the First Ones ordered the cosmos. I never berated you in saying the Titans ordered it. The Titans ordering the cosmos has been a thing in the story from the beginning. That has actual narrative weight to it even before Chronicle.
- - - Updated - - -
Also, I just read the WC3 manual, and it states that the Titans found Azeroth. It never says they created it. It also says that, after the defeat of the Old Gods, the Titans empowered races to help shape the orld of Azeroth in their image. This could simply imply they created and empowered their own races, or they went and empowered races that showed up naturally on Azeroth. Either way, it's not really something the current lore really contradicts, especially with the implication that the Titans take from other things and utilize them, which could include Azeroth's early forms of intelligent life.
Them creating the dwarves straight up tho was a retcon, as that's been changed to them making the Earthern. And some of those Earthern would eventually end up becoming the dwarves via the Curse/Gift of Flesh.
Also I know there are book sources that suggest otherwise but FAR MORE people have heard this by doing the boss during Wrath, later on or just watching it on Youtube:
and EVERYONE who played during Wrath knows thisOriginally Posted by Algalon the Observer
So yeah. These are things every player who was around with Wrath either directly lived through or eventually saw because of youtube. And I am sure they outnumber people who actually read the interactible books or actually read the Chronicle.Originally Posted by Rhonin
So what we know is that the Titans have killed trillions of people and wiped out entire planetary systems because they deviated from their plans. So . . . yeah they don't seem that benevolent to me.
Imagine if Elune is a worldsoul that defied Aman'Thul and is now chilling inside the moon.
Like, a nice auntie looking out for Azeroth to ensure she remains free.
Elunaria might be her homeworld, which she was able to leave.
Again Metzen was not only was on the wow team but was the creative director of it and stayed that way through wrath and mop when you know we got Ulduar and the “rebuild the final titan” stuff.
If he didn’t personally write all the lore for the titans which there’s a good chance he did, then her personally directed those who did.
All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.