The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Also, ants to them? Oh please...

I can take them. After the whole Jailer ordeal, they ain't so tough.

Does Blizzard pay you to post here, or are you really this excited about shallow powerscaling and ill-conceived butcherings of the cosmology?

[Joshuaj]

Does Blizzard pay you to post here, or are you really this excited about shallow powerscaling and ill-conceived butcherings of the cosmology?

Calling me a "paid shill" for being excited over potentially facing cosmic beings in a video game based on War is certainly a take. Maybe lighten up?

[Ersula]

WoW was being worked on from 1999 till 2004. That was at the same time was Warcraft 3. Who else but Metzen would write for it? At least the background lore. It's not like they had such a big team.

Metzen was not exclusively responsible for Warcraft lore. Writing Reign of Chaos & Frozen Throne was his full time job. That's the whole thing. That's why the Titans & Dragonflights are completely absent from Warcraft 3.~ Two completely different teams of people.

~(just to defer the pedantic comments: Yes, Metzen himself probably wrote the original origin myth, including the Titans & the associated terminology. For example, Sargaras is called the Dark Titan in Warcraft 3, in the only use of that word in the entire game. When I say absent from Warcraft 3 I mean all the details about Titans making constructs & fascilities, any establishment of what they do outside of the origin myth, was almost completely the creation of the writers working on the World of Warcraft team.)

Honestly the fact that the Dragonflights weren't involved in Archamonde's attack on Hyjal should be considered a massive plot hole.

I will never understand where this idea that the Titans are benevolent came from. The first time they seemed relevant in WoW was in Ulduar when they were planning to kill all of us "for the greater good"

What, Metzen was not involved even with Wrath now?

Considering the Titans as cosmic horrors rather than benevolent saviors seems to be consistent with Metzen's writing, cause Metzen was writing for Wotlk. But Metzen also does lean into these things being a matter of perspective: Good because they did stop the Old Gods from taking over. Bad because they prioritize themselves. Uncaring gods. Existentialism.

Actually when you take all this into consideration, it becomes clear the Eternal Ones & First Ones seem to be trying to recreate what Metzen did with the original origin myth before WoW made the Titans' lore pedestrian: A more mysterious creator after they took away the mystery of the Titans.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Calling me a "paid shill" for being excited over potentially facing cosmic beings in a video game based on War is certainly a take. Maybe lighten up?

The reason I say this isn't just because you're excited, but because you talk like quest text trying to hype up the Jailer during SL. You have a habit of obsessing over how cool you think the new cosmology is, completely eating up the hype, and sometimes doing so while dismissing more well-established elements of the lore that people have grown to like. When the new cosmology is criticized or alternatives are suggested, many of your responses range from "well, you might be saying that they should do this thing instead, but this contradicts [thing interlocutor is suggesting be replaced in the first place]" to "well, [story element] is required for [story that nobody who likes story element would like]". You can see why people might get a bit exasperated.

[Joshuaj]

The reason I say this isn't just because you're excited, but because you talk like quest text trying to hype up the Jailer during SL. You have a habit of obsessing over how cool you think the new cosmology is, completely eating up the hype, and sometimes doing so while dismissing more well-established elements of the lore that people have grown to like. When the new cosmology is criticized or alternatives are suggested, many of your responses range from "well, you might be saying that they should do this thing instead, but this contradicts [thing interlocutor is suggesting be replaced in the first place]" to "well, [story element] is required for [story that nobody who likes story element would like]". You can see why people might get a bit exasperated.

Respectfully, a lot of y'alls "alternatives" suck.

Anyway, that's irrelevant, and your critique doesn't address the fact that I think we should face off against the Titans, and that we're no longer "ants" to them, or at least not in terms of relevance and whatnot. Power wise, we're usually "ants", but with enough amps, we're shown to handle Titan lvl beings.

[Nibelheimy]

Respectfully, a lot of y'alls "alternatives" suck.

Anyway, that's irrelevant, and your critique doesn't address the fact that I think we should face off against the Titans, and that we're no longer "ants" to them.

When you suggested that there's an eternal one for each cosmic force and there's one called void or shadow my eyes rolled so far back in my head they nearly didn't come back down.

Respectfully, the pot is calling the kettle black.

Can't wait for another cool burger king crown to power us up.

[Joshuaj]

When you suggested that there's an eternal one for each cosmic force and there's one called void or shadow my eyes rolled so far back in my head they nearly didn't come back down.

Respectfully, the pot is calling the kettle black.

Can't wait for another cool burger king crown to power us up.

You mean First One?

Also, read Chronicle 4. I'm only going off what that said, and I've questioned it's absolution in terms of how the Progenitors are named before.

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I can send you a screenshot of the page talking about the First Ones if you'd like. I have Chronicle 4.

[Nibelheimy]

You mean First One?

Also, read Chronicle 4. I'm only going off what that said, and I've questioned it's absolution in terms of how the Progenitors are named before.

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I can send you a screenshot of the page talking about the First Ones if you'd like. I have Chronicle 4.

I couldn't care. As much as you'd love to twist even an insult into discussion about them. The topic is uninteresting, dull and irrelevant to me

My point is don't come into the forum saying most people's speculations are dogshit. It's bad enough we have to put up with almost constant de-railment of the thread back into the shadowlands and first ones without you attempting to insult everybody over their ideas.

[Joshuaj]

I couldn't care. As much as you'd love to twist even an insult into discussion about them. The topic is uninteresting, dull and irrelevant to me

My point is don't come into the forum saying most people's speculations are dogshit. It's bad enough we have to put up with almost constant de-railment of the thread back into the shadowlands and first ones without you attempting to insult everybody over their ideas.

Say it to the person who actually brought it up, not me. The only reason I brought up SL even remotely was to use an example as to why I think the Titans aren't so "big" in actuality (I prefer using the Jailer over Argus and N'Zoth, as he's actually a Titan lvl being and not a "low tier Titan lvl" being or something that's debatably Titan lvl).

Suffice to say, calling us ants to the Titans is silly, and I explained why.

[Nibelheimy]

Say it to the person who actually brought it up, not me. The only reason I brought up SL even remotely was to use an example as to why I think the Titans aren't so "big" in actuality (I prefer using the Jailer over Argus and N'Zoth, as he's actually a Titan lvl being and not a "low tier Titan lvl" being or something that's debatably Titan lvl).

Suffice to say, calling us ants to the Titans is silly, and I explained why.

I have no idea why you're trying to engage in Janitor talk with me. These are the posts i will continue to not engage with. To repeat, these discussion are dull and irrelevant to me.

But remember to stop Y'allself from saying everybody else's speculation is bad.

[Joshuaj]

I have no idea why you're trying to engage in Janitor talk with me. These are the posts i will continue to not engage with. To repeat, these discussion are dull and irrelevant to me.

But remember to stop Y'allself from saying everybody else's speculation is bad.

You can't just say something out of nowhere and not try to understand the context of things. Come on now.

[alex wolf]

The "seventh" force is going to be the mortals/azeroth and our goal is to keep balance in the universe preventing any one force from totally over taking material reality which is why we (the mortals) can use any other power source. Also void is the source of free will due to the whole multiple timelines thing

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Metzen was not exclusively responsible for Warcraft lore. Writing Reign of Chaos & Frozen Throne was his full time job. That's the whole thing. That's why the Titans & Dragonflights are completely absent from Warcraft 3.~ Two completely different teams of people.

Metzen was the creative director of wow, he would be the one leading the writing team of it not some uninvolved party while they come up with what ever.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Metzen was not exclusively responsible for Warcraft lore. Writing Reign of Chaos & Frozen Throne was his full time job. That's the whole thing. That's why the Titans & Dragonflights are completely absent from Warcraft 3.~ Two completely different teams of people.

The blue Dragonflight, ruled by Malygos, the lord of magic, was all but devastated by the evil Deathwing and his black Dragonflight.

Alexstrasza the Life-Binder, Malygos the Spell-Weaver, Ysera the Dreamer, Nozdormu the Timeless, and Neltharion the Earth-Warder were all empowered by the Titans’ vast powers and charged with the world’s defense.

When I say absent from Warcraft 3 I mean all the details about Titans making constructs & fascilities, any establishment of what they do outside of the origin myth

(T)hey created the dwarves from magical, living stone.

unfathomable, far-sighted plan to create order out of chaos.

That second one's a bit disingenuous, but it does relate.

[Joshuaj]

Metzen was not exclusively responsible for Warcraft lore. Writing Reign of Chaos & Frozen Throne was his full time job. That's the whole thing. That's why the Titans & Dragonflights are completely absent from Warcraft 3.~ Two completely different teams of people.

~(just to defer the pedantic comments: Yes, Metzen himself probably wrote the original origin myth, including the Titans & the associated terminology. For example, Sargaras is called the Dark Titan in Warcraft 3, in the only use of that word in the entire game. When I say absent from Warcraft 3 I mean all the details about Titans making constructs & fascilities, any establishment of what they do outside of the origin myth, was almost completely the creation of the writers working on the World of Warcraft team.)

Honestly the fact that the Dragonflights weren't involved in Archamonde's attack on Hyjal should be considered a massive plot hole.
Considering the Titans as cosmic horrors rather than benevolent saviors seems to be consistent with Metzen's writing, cause Metzen was writing for Wotlk. But Metzen also does lean into these things being a matter of perspective: Good because they did stop the Old Gods from taking over. Bad because they prioritize themselves. Uncaring gods. Existentialism.

Actually when you take all this into consideration, it becomes clear the Eternal Ones & First Ones seem to be trying to recreate what Metzen did with the original origin myth before WoW made the Titans' lore pedestrian: A more mysterious creator after they took away the mystery of the Titans.

The Titans and their works are talked about a ton in the WC3 manual btw

[Ersula]

The Titans and their works are talked about a ton in the WC3 manual btw

Yeah, like I said, only in their relation to Warcraft's origin Myth. (They also call it "The Ordering" which you were just berating me for calling it several pages ago.) Creating armies of constructs that would eventually become sapient races, making the Dragonflights, building fascilities to fight the old gods, Worldsouls in general, that was all the WoW team's doing. The Warcraft 3 manual only mentions the Titans making Azeroth, (???) "empowering the sentient races" (???), imprisoning the Elemental Lords and Sargeras betraying them. Only half of those things actually happened in the current lore.

The likely reason they're doing "the worldsoul saga" because Metzen (and I) are sick & tired of that entire aspect of the lore, so they're putting it to bed.

[Joshuaj]

Yeah, like I said, only in their relation to Warcraft's origin Myth. (They also call it "The Ordering" which you were just berating me for calling it several pages ago.) Creating armies of constructs that would eventually become sapient races, making the Dragonflights, building fascilities to fight the old gods, Worldsouls in general, that was all the WoW team's doing. The Warcraft 3 manual only mentions the Titans making Azeroth, (???) "empowering the sentient races" (???), imprisoning the Elemental Lords and Sargeras betraying them. Only half of those things actually happened in the current lore.

The likely reason they're doing "the worldsoul saga" because Metzen (and I) are sick & tired of that entire aspect of the lore, so they're putting it to bed.

I berated you in regards to you saying the First Ones ordered the cosmos. I never berated you in saying the Titans ordered it. The Titans ordering the cosmos has been a thing in the story from the beginning. That has actual narrative weight to it even before Chronicle.

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Also, I just read the WC3 manual, and it states that the Titans found Azeroth. It never says they created it. It also says that, after the defeat of the Old Gods, the Titans empowered races to help shape the orld of Azeroth in their image. This could simply imply they created and empowered their own races, or they went and empowered races that showed up naturally on Azeroth. Either way, it's not really something the current lore really contradicts, especially with the implication that the Titans take from other things and utilize them, which could include Azeroth's early forms of intelligent life.

Them creating the dwarves straight up tho was a retcon, as that's been changed to them making the Earthern. And some of those Earthern would eventually end up becoming the dwarves via the Curse/Gift of Flesh.

[Nymrohd]

Honestly the fact that the Dragonflights weren't involved in Archamonde's attack on Hyjal should be considered a massive plot hole.
Considering the Titans as cosmic horrors rather than benevolent saviors seems to be consistent with Metzen's writing, cause Metzen was writing for Wotlk. But Metzen also does lean into these things being a matter of perspective: Good because they did stop the Old Gods from taking over. Bad because they prioritize themselves. Uncaring gods. Existentialism.

Actually when you take all this into consideration, it becomes clear the Eternal Ones & First Ones seem to be trying to recreate what Metzen did with the original origin myth before WoW made the Titans' lore pedestrian: A more mysterious creator after they took away the mystery of the Titans.

Also I know there are book sources that suggest otherwise but FAR MORE people have heard this by doing the boss during Wrath, later on or just watching it on Youtube:

I have seen worlds bathed in the Makers' flames, their denizens fading without so much as a whimper. Entire planetary systems born and razed in the time that it takes your mortal hearts to beat once. Yet all throughout, my own heart devoid of emotion... of empathy. I. Have. Felt. Nothing. A million-million lives wasted. Had they all held within them your tenacity? Had they all loved life as you do?
Perhaps it is your imperfections... that which grants you free will... that allows you to persevere against all cosmically calculated odds. You prevail where the Titan's own perfect creations have failed.

and EVERYONE who played during Wrath knows this

Citizens of Dalaran! Raise your eyes to the skies and observe!
Today our world's destruction has been averted in defiance of our very makers!
Algalon the Observer, herald of the titans, has been defeated by our brave comrades in the depths of the titan city of Ulduar.
Algalon was sent here to judge the fate of our world.
He found a planet whose races had deviated from the titans' blueprints. A planet where not everything had gone according to plan.
Cold logic deemed our world not worth saving. Cold logic, however, does not account for the power of free will. It's up to each of us to prove this is a world worth saving.
That our lives... our lives are worth living.

So yeah. These are things every player who was around with Wrath either directly lived through or eventually saw because of youtube. And I am sure they outnumber people who actually read the interactible books or actually read the Chronicle.
So what we know is that the Titans have killed trillions of people and wiped out entire planetary systems because they deviated from their plans. So . . . yeah they don't seem that benevolent to me.

[Worldshaper]

Imagine if Elune is a worldsoul that defied Aman'Thul and is now chilling inside the moon.

Like, a nice auntie looking out for Azeroth to ensure she remains free.

Elunaria might be her homeworld, which she was able to leave.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

that was all the WoW team's doing.

Again Metzen was not only was on the wow team but was the creative director of it and stayed that way through wrath and mop when you know we got Ulduar and the “rebuild the final titan” stuff.

If he didn’t personally write all the lore for the titans which there’s a good chance he did, then her personally directed those who did.