The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nymrohd]

Imagine if Elune is a worldsoul that defied Aman'Thul and is now chilling inside the moon.

Like, a nice auntie looking out for Azeroth to ensure she remains free.

Elunaria might be her homeworld, which she was able to leave.

Yeah that was my suggestion. Either defied him or simply had her own path before she met him. Would immediately explain Elunaria, explain her relation with Eonar, why she is an "upstart".

[Worldshaper]

Yeah that was my suggestion. Either defied him or simply had her own path before she met him. Would immediately explain Elunaria, explain her relation with Eonar, why she is an "upstart".

Would be cool.

The Brokers say someone with her origins is not to be trusted. I wonder what that means.

Plus her "sisterhood" with the Winter Queen.

If the WQ is a robot created by those who are not to be named in order to watch over Ardenweald and its souls... did they somehow inject her with the soul of a real creature, or is her kinship with Elune more of an alliance? Sort of like Eonar being her great love, or whatever it was.

Is Elune setting up all these alliances over vast aeons of time, in order to achieve her goals?

[Nymrohd]

Would be cool.

The Brokers say someone with her origins is not to be trusted. I wonder what that means.

Plus her "sisterhood" with the Winter Queen.

If the WQ is a robot created by those who are not to be named in order to watch over Ardenweald and its souls... did they somehow inject her with the soul of a real creature, or is her kinship with Elune more of an alliance? Sort of like Eonar being her great love, or whatever it was.

Is Elune setting up all these alliances over vast aeons of time, in order to achieve her goals?

Or sisterhood is metaphoric and Elune is a sister to the Winter Queen in the same way she is with Eonar; she has fostered a strong relationship with her.

[Worldshaper]

Or sisterhood is metaphoric and Elune is a sister to the Winter Queen in the same way she is with Eonar; she has fostered a strong relationship with her.

That's what I was getting at, yeah.

Could she once, long ago, have approached her to ensure Wild Gods or Night Elves recieved preferential treatment, perhaps.

[Eldryth]

Would be cool.

The Brokers say someone with her origins is not to be trusted. I wonder what that means.

Plus her "sisterhood" with the Winter Queen.

If the WQ is a robot created by those who are not to be named in order to watch over Ardenweald and its souls... did they somehow inject her with the soul of a real creature, or is her kinship with Elune more of an alliance? Sort of like Eonar being her great love, or whatever it was.

Is Elune setting up all these alliances over vast aeons of time, in order to achieve her goals?

Maybe Elune is a Worldsoul that wasn't forced to any single Cosmic force, and ended up born as a truly free deity that can act independently and can make use of all cosmic powers? And is working to ensure Azeroth is properly born with that same freedom?

It would make sense of her seeming distinct yet connected to so many different forces. She could freely bond with the Winter Queen (and potentially have an even stronger connection to her as sisters, like being born from worlds in the same solar system or moons of the same planet) and Eonar. Take a part of the Realm of Life as her own, with or without Life's permission (the Titans were able to take over a part of it to make the Emerald Dream so it's not unprecedented, and as far as I remember the information we got on her during Shadowlands never got more specific than "the Winter Queen's sister in the realms of Life, who maintains the Cycle with the Winter Queen"- nothing about her being part of a Pantheon).

Create the Naaru out of Light- which could completely recontextualize the mystery of Beledar, come to think of it. The fact that it looked so much like a Naaru thing but the Archives strongly implied that it was a crystalized manifestation of the Worldsoul's power seemed to be in conflict, but if Naaru are created by independent Worldsouls... could Azeroth be creating her own Naaru, with Beledar being an egg, or the first phase of its life cycle, or something?

I actually really like this idea now that I'm thinking of it. It fits everything I can remember very well, gives Elune the significance she deserves after decades of buildup, and creates a great example of what Azeroth can become if all the forces fighting to control her are defeated.

[Timester]

Guys, what's with this idea that Metzen wasn't involved with the lore writting or decisions? He said in the WoWCast he was hyper-prescriptive as a Creative Director in the past.



Yes, people like Knaak, Golden and Kosak might had influenced the expansion of the lore, but at the end of the day, it was all up to Metzen's head and idea of direction. The Titans are his creation after all, as they were first mention in the Warcraft III manual (all written by Metzen to justify Sargeras, also Metzen's creation in Warcraft II) and weren't even part of the game itself.

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Also, I just read the WC3 manual, and it states that the Titans found Azeroth. It never says they created it. It also says that, after the defeat of the Old Gods, the Titans empowered races to help shape the orld of Azeroth in their image. This could simply imply they created and empowered their own races, or they went and empowered races that showed up naturally on Azeroth. Either way, it's not really something the current lore really contradicts, especially with the implication that the Titans take from other things and utilize them, which could include Azeroth's early forms of intelligent life.

Them creating the dwarves straight up tho was a retcon, as that's been changed to them making the Earthern. And some of those Earthern would eventually end up becoming the dwarves via the Curse/Gift of Flesh.

Yes, the Ordering, nothing new. They found Azeroth and ordered it as they wanted. But the dwarves were created by the Titans, that's not retcon:

To help them dredge out the fathomless caverns beneath the earth, they created the dwarves from magical, living stone.

[Nymrohd]

Guys, what's with this idea that Metzen wasn't involved with the lore writting or decisions? He said in the WoWCast he was hyper-prescriptive as a Creative Director in the past.

This forum is obsessed with who is responsible for WoW lore at any given time, mostly in the context of placing all the hate on someone they dislike (usually Afrasiabi and/or Danuser) or excusing someone they do like (Metzen or Danuser)

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That's what I was getting at, yeah.

Could she once, long ago, have approached her to ensure Wild Gods or Night Elves recieved preferential treatment, perhaps.

Could also be that Elune is how in TLT we will be able to stand up to Titans. We've faced super powerful bosses before but always we were empowered in a relevant way. Elune seems to have opposed Aman'thul forcing Order on the other World Souls which would make sense why she waited for the Pantheon to be away to approach Azeroth and explains why she approached Eonar. Her being a World Soul explains her power level without creating yet another form of being in the setting while also showing a version of World Soul that did not align with Order and become a Titan. And with her backing we should be able to take on the Pantheon (though alternatively we could have Eonar and Aggramar on our side).

[Xilurm]

Honestly the fact that the Dragonflights weren't involved in Archamonde's attack on Hyjal should be considered a massive plot hole.

Tyrande actually does mention both Ysera and Alexstrasza about healing Nordrassil in WC3, but she gets cut off before finishing her thought.

Actually when you take all this into consideration, it becomes clear the Eternal Ones & First Ones seem to be trying to recreate what Metzen did with the original origin myth before WoW made the Titans' lore pedestrian: A more mysterious creator after they took away the mystery of the Titans.

Yeah, but it feels weird and rushed. First time I came across Titan lore was in Uldaman back in the day and I was fascinated reading the discs. Didn't feel the same when we were introduced to the concept of the First Ones.

[Nerdslime]

Imagine if Elune is a worldsoul that defied Aman'Thul and is now chilling inside the moon.

Like, a nice auntie looking out for Azeroth to ensure she remains free.

Elunaria might be her homeworld, which she was able to leave.

This sounds very plausible.

[Joshuaj]

This sounds very plausible.

Or Eonar named her sanctuary after Elune?

[Nerdslime]

Or Eonar named her sanctuary after Elune?

This is also very plausible.

[Worldshaper]

For funsies: what themes do you think we've yet to fully experience in WoW?

In the past, we used to bring up the Dragon Isles, Undermine, the Emerald Dream, etc. as potential expansion settings. But most of it has been done at this point!

Here are some that I'd like to see, either as full expansions or simply as new zones:

• "True" South Seas expansion. I still think Blizzard tried too much with Battle for Azeroth. It was their way of giving us a South Seas expansion, just like Void Elves was their way of giving us High Elves. I want a swashbuckling pirate adventure, deep tropical jungles with rivers and palm trees and volcanies and sandy beaches. Sholazar Basin meets Zandalar meets Kul Tiras meets Stranglethorn Vale meets Krasarang Wilds. Use Plunder Isle as the launching point of the expansion, and from there we sail into the "true" South Seas, below Pandaria. Tel'Abim, Hiji and other places are obviously features. Let me sit on the beach of a remote island in the tropics, looking out to sea, just enjoying the Monkey Island vibes.
• Age of Exploration: other Side of Azeroth ft. Erinethria's brood. Literally just let us sail west/east from the known continents, and find what's beyond the waves. A different take on traditional WoW. Elwynn-like forests that aren't Elwynn. Mulgore-like plains that aren't Mulgore. Find old sailors from Azeroth that got shipwrecked. Discover new civilizations. Meet dragons unlike any you've seen before. Learn cool old lore about known continents from people who left those places long ago, or through messages in a bottle that floated ashore over the years.
• The Big Revamp. Yes, of course. Duh. We all want Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms to receive the revamp treatment. Traditonal WoW but in HD, much larger, with new stories to tell, and endgame set in these remade zones.
• Venture deeper into Emerald Dream or Ardenweald, beyond the confines of the Titans/Eternal ones. Just pure wilderness in those two themes.
• Time Travel to Ancient Kalimdor. It would be sick to experience the world as it was back then. At least in a (modern) patch. So much potential for "origin story" lore.
• Draenor 3.0. I'd be down for a revisit to either Outland or Draenor, if they found a way to expand on it. For example going to the ogre continent in the south, where everything would be really big and brutish.
• Into the Great Dark Beyond. Sure, why not? Let's planet-hop a bit aboard draenei interdimensional ships. See Argus again, K'aresh, and maybe a couple of new places. It would be difficult to not make it feel very fragmented and stuff. So maybe in the future if they start doing short expansions. A return of the Burning Legion?
• Return to Kalimdor. Revamp or not, I really think the game needs a Kalimdor-centric expansion, where we get typical Horde content set around the Barrens, Mulgore, etc., but also to clean up the legacy of the Night Elves and their various homes around Mount Hyjal. They could probably do something with the Botani and Saberon that escaped here.

[Joshuaj]

For funsies: what themes do you think we've yet to fully experience in WoW?

In the past, we used to bring up the Dragon Isles, Undermine, the Emerald Dream, etc. as potential expansion settings. But most of it has been done at this point!

Here are some that I'd like to see, either as full expansions or simply as new zones:

• "True" South Seas expansion. I still think Blizzard tried too much with Battle for Azeroth. It was their way of giving us a South Seas expansion, just like Void Elves was their way of giving us High Elves. I want a swashbuckling pirate adventure, deep tropical jungles with rivers and palm trees and volcanies and sandy beaches. Sholazar Basin meets Zandalar meets Kul Tiras meets Stranglethorn Vale meets Krasarang Wilds. Use Plunder Isle as the launching point of the expansion, and from there we sail into the "true" South Seas, below Pandaria. Tel'Abim, Hiji and other places are obviously features. Let me sit on the beach of a remote island in the tropics, looking out to sea, just enjoying the Monkey Island vibes.
• Age of Exploration: other Side of Azeroth ft. Erinethria's brood. Literally just let us sail west/east from the known continents, and find what's beyond the waves. A different take on traditional WoW. Elwynn-like forests that aren't Elwynn. Mulgore-like plains that aren't Mulgore. Find old sailors from Azeroth that got shipwrecked. Discover new civilizations. Meet dragons unlike any you've seen before. Learn cool old lore about known continents from people who left those places long ago, or through messages in a bottle that floated ashore over the years.
• The Big Revamp. Yes, of course. Duh. We all want Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms to receive the revamp treatment. Traditonal WoW but in HD, much larger, with new stories to tell, and endgame set in these remade zones.
• Venture deeper into Emerald Dream or Ardenweald, beyond the confines of the Titans/Eternal ones. Just pure wilderness in those two themes.
• Time Travel to Ancient Kalimdor. It would be sick to experience the world as it was back then. At least in a (modern) patch. So much potential for "origin story" lore.
• Draenor 3.0. I'd be down for a revisit to either Outland or Draenor, if they found a way to expand on it. For example going to the ogre continent in the south, where everything would be really big and brutish.
• Into the Great Dark Beyond. Sure, why not? Let's planet-hop a bit aboard draenei interdimensional ships. See Argus again, K'aresh, and maybe a couple of new places. It would be difficult to not make it feel very fragmented and stuff. So maybe in the future if they start doing short expansions. A return of the Burning Legion?
• Return to Kalimdor. Revamp or not, I really think the game needs a Kalimdor-centric expansion, where we get typical Horde content set around the Barrens, Mulgore, etc., but also to clean up the legacy of the Night Elves and their various homes around Mount Hyjal. They could probably do something with the Botani and Saberon that escaped here.

I had most of these in my personal "future expansions" speculation thing. The only one I don't have in my thing is the "ancient Kalimdor" one, and that's due to the fact that I doubt Blizzard will want to fully spend time on a time travel expac, especially IF it's not based on our timeline or anything like that, ya know?

Also, while I do think we should explore more of the Dream and the Domain of Life in general, I think we're fine in terms of exploring Ardenweald, as unlike the Dream, we've seen the TRUE centerpiece of Ardenweald.

[Ersula]

I berated you in regards to you saying the First Ones ordered the cosmos. I never berated you in saying the Titans ordered it. The Titans ordering the cosmos has been a thing in the story from the beginning. That has actual narrative weight to it even before Chronicle.

The Shadowlands book directly states the First Ones created & told the Titans to order the universe. That doesn't mean they didn't do it. They both did it. The First Ones were just delegating.

Again Metzen was not only was on the wow team but was the creative director of it and stayed that way through wrath and mop when you know we got Ulduar and the “rebuild the final titan” stuff.

If he didn’t personally write all the lore for the titans which there’s a good chance he did, then her personally directed those who did.

In the BTS WoW Documentary, He directly states he was busy with Warcraft 3 the other developers were simply pulling from his lore bible, likely, the exact information that existed in the Warcraft 3 manual. Kern & Guerrero had elaborate on that. The WoW lore is largely collaborative. Metzen oversaw & approved everything, but that doesn't mean that stuff "is his baby" so to speak: The glaring fact being The Titans & Dragonflights don't participate in Warcraft 3 in any way. Don't you think if Metzen was writing about a group of superpowered dragons made to defend the world against demons, they would have made an appearance?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

In the BTS WoW Documentary, He directly states he was busy with Warcraft 3 the other developers were simply pulling from his lore bible, likely, the exact information that existed in the Warcraft 3 manual. Kern & Guerrero had elaborate on that. The WoW lore is largely collaborative. Metzen oversaw & approved everything, but that doesn't mean that stuff "is his baby" so to speak: The glaring fact being The Titans & Dragonflights don't participate in Warcraft 3 in any way. Don't you think if Metzen was writing about a group of superpowered dragons made to defend the world against demons, they would have made an appearance?

As you say your self Metzen would have approved it and it would have been based off his own lore, if he wasn’t personally writing it he approved of it all.

And no I wouldn’t expect the dragons in WC3 as Metzen also over saw and approved of the day of the dragon novel which came out a year before WC3 and extensive lore about the dragons and why they wouldn’t show up so soon after its events.

[Ersula]

As you say your self Metzen would have approved it and it would have been based off his own lore, if he wasn’t personally writing it he approved of it all.

And no I wouldn’t expect the dragons in WC3 as Metzen also over saw and approved of the day of the dragon novel which came out a year before WC3 and extensive lore about the dragons and why they wouldn’t show up so soon after its events.

Metzen didn't write all the lore in the WoW universe. Sorry, to ruin your illusion. Just because he's in charge doesn't mean he should get credit for it or has any emotional attachment to it.

Plus, it should be noted that Day of the Dragon does not establish any connection between the Titans & the Dragonflights, why Metzen didn't feel the need to mention them helping fighting the legion, even though that was retroactively established as their entire purpose, so that's a point toward that lore tidbit being created in WoW by other developers.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Metzen didn't write all the lore in the WoW universe. Sorry, to ruin your illusion. Just because he's in charge doesn't mean he should get credit for it or has any emotional attachment to it.

Plus, it should be noted that Day of the Dragon does not establish any connection between the Titans & the Dragonflights, why Metzen didn't feel the need to mention them helping fighting the legion, even though that was retroactively established as their entire purpose, so that's a point toward that lore tidbit being created in WoW by other developers.

No where did I say he wrote all the lore I said he approved it, which you your self also just said.

And the dragons fighting the legion first comes up in the last guardian which also came out in 2001 before WC3, and there lore is expanded upon in the war of the ancients trilogy which came out in the same year as wow and like all the other novels at the time was made hand in hand with Metzen.

Metzen over saw and approved of it the dragons through multiple books years apart and before the wow team which again he lead.

[Cheezits]

I think the most likely trajectory for the next arc is:

14.0- Kalimdor-tied Expansion ala Midnight
15.0- Outlands (not Draenor!) Revamp
16.0- Avaloren (always stated to be in the west, so I think they will have it tied to Kalimdor as
Avaloren vs EK Silver Hand is too simple)

(Avaloren and Outlands can be swapped but I think like TWS we will do more revamps than OCshit)

The main villains will be Azshara and the Arathi Emperor, two royal villains with opposite cosmix ties but IMO will be a fitting combination. Maybe they will team up with the idea being that Azshara gets Kalimdor and the Arathi reclaim EK?

No idea how Denathrius would play into this, but I think N'zoth will appear. Also heavy Elune involvement because Kalimdor, Kaldorei vs Azshara and the Light.

Also a random theory: the events of Midnight will crippe the Void so hard that during the events of TLT, Azshara (who is said to be lurking in the Void Veil) can swoop in and take over their operations similar to her ex-obsession Sargeras. This is how you bring the Void back after Midnight but in a new and unique way- tie them heavily to Azshara instead of vice versa.

[Joshuaj]

I think the most likely trajectory for the next arc is:

14.0- Kalimdor-tied Expansion ala Midnight
15.0- Outlands (not Draenor!) Revamp
16.0- Avaloren (always stated to be in the west, so I think they will have it tied to Kalimdor as
Avaloren vs EK Silver Hand is too simple)

(Avaloren and Outlands can be swapped but I think like TWS we will do more revamps than OCshit)

The main villains will be Azshara and the Arathi Emperor, two royal villains with opposite cosmix ties but IMO will be a fitting combination. Maybe they will team up with the idea being that Azshara gets Kalimdor and the Arathi reclaim EK?

No idea how Denathrius would play into this, but I think N'zoth will appear. Also heavy Elune involvement because Kalimdor, Kaldorei vs Azshara and the Light.

Also a random theory: the events of Midnight will crippe the Void so hard that during the events of TLT, Azshara (who is said to be lurking in the Void Veil) can swoop in and take over their operations similar to her ex-obsession Sargeras. This is how you bring the Void back after Midnight but in a new and unique way- tie them heavily to Azshara instead of vice versa.

This is what I want:

The Anarchy Saga (Order Vs Disorder)

14.0: Outland Revamp + Xoroth, Nathreza, return to Argus, and Rancora (Xoroth and Nathreza's ruins can be patch zones, with Rancora being either a max level zone at the start of the expac or part of the first raid).
15.0: Order Realm (Introduced as boss rooms initially in TLT, or at least that's my hope).
16.0: Depths of the Disorder Realm (Built up since 14.0 to make it work).

The Expedition Saga (Pirates and Civil Warfare, Backside of Azeroth, Celestial Bodies of Azeroth).

17.0: Islands + a revamp on certain parts of the EK and/or Kalimdor (Namely the Southern parts). This would be the proper "South Seas" expac.
18.0: Avaloren and the Arathi Empire!
19.0: Azeroths Sun and Moons + Revamp on Northern Kalimdor.

The Nature Saga (Life Overgrowth, Elemental Warfare (Namely with Spirit and Decay), and the Realms of Life):

20.0: Return to the Dream + Revamp of Southern Kalimdor (If the revamp doesn't occur in 17.0). We explore other worlds and their Dreams as well.
21.0: Return to Pandaria + Enter Cosmic Elemental Domains in order to bring Spirit back to Azeroth.
22.0: Explore the Kingdom of Life. Here, we'll meet Elune, we'll see cool Life areas, and we'll deal with the threat there.

The Light and Shadow Saga (Lightbound, Light Realm, Dark Beyond, and Void Realm):

23.0: Return to AU Draenor, and enter the island of Farahlon. Shattrath raid, etc.
24.0: Explore the realms of Light and figure out the Light's plans for existence.
25.0: Great Dark Beyond exploration, with Space pirates, Void entities, etc.
26.0: We enter the Void Realm, where we meet the other Void Lords, see unique Shadowy lands, races, styles, and kingdoms, and properly reign in the Void once and for all.

The Final Saga (Cosmic War Part 1, Cosmic War Part 2, First Ones and rise of the Seventh, and The Final Battle):

27.0: All Out Cosmic War. No new zones, updates on existing locations, raids involve different areas where each force is battling one another. Ends in each force wanting to end eachother on an ultimate battleground.

28.0: All Out Cosmic War's Climax. Ultimate Battleground (With Azeroth in the Skybox) is the main area, with 6 new zones representing each force. Ends in the forces coming to an understanding, and the 7th beginning to openly make it's move.

29.0: The 7th rises, and the First Ones return. The Progenitors step in, and try to test our mettle in order to prepare for the 7th's assault. We explore multiple Progenitor based zones and whatnot til the expac ends with us facing and beating the Progenitors themselves at "The High Table".

30.0: The Final Battle against the Seventh Power occurs. We enter the 7th, explore some new zones, and deal with it VIA us being aided by the 6 united Cosmic forces and their pantheons, with Azeroth and her Champions basically leading the charge.

The final raid of the expac will have the 7th consume the other Progenitors, and end in 1 final clash between Azeroth's Champions and the "Supreme Power of All!" AKA Warcraft's Yog-Sothoth.

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I have 3 more theorized and speculated sagas after these lol. Reminder that none of this is absolutely and I could be wrong on all of this (Heck, it's highly likely we'll see Avaloren next saga, as things seem to be building up to that, though it's also possible Blizzard doesn't know where to put it yet storywise). This speculation is just for fun at the end of the day.

Ya know what? Screw it. I'll post the rest of my Saga speculations.

[Golden Yak]

I'd love to see Avaloren, but my issue with it is that I don't want the entire continent to be presented in a single expansion. I want a new continent that's truly vast, comparable to Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms. Not a smaller landmass like Pandaria or the islands we've gotten (Broken, Dragon, etc.)

I want a third greater-scale continent, and I don't think a single expansion it enough to cover one. I think we'd need at least two, maybe as part of another saga. Couldn't there be some cliff-hanger two-part saga, where you cover the southern half of Avaloren, but there's something even more dangerous and scary in the northern half? There's mention of a Titan expedition that went heretical, and how 'advances' of the Black Empire were to be kept secret. Maybe

Part 1 - South Avaloren, Arathi Empire
Part 2 - North Avaloren, Titanforged+Black Empire civilization