The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Joshuaj]

I don't think you can call Shadowlands cosmic. Sure, in a purely technical sense of the powers chart maybe, but thematically it has nothing to do with space. The theme is halloween x1000, not outer space.

Cosmic in WoW doesn't just mean outer space. It quite literally involves anything that's off world, transcends dimensional boundaries, and/or involves the functionalities of the verses cosmology, which SL does all three.

SL is about the afterlife, the realm of one of the 6 higher forces that shape the Warcraft universe. It is, by definition, cosmic.

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Heck, SL goes DEEP in the cosmology as well, as it has us not only explore the mechanisms of Death and the true nature of the Jailer, but it also has us learn about the powers that be, as well as one of the workshops and machines they created within the universal ether (This workshop being the Death Realm's very origin point, and the machine being located within the cosmic patterns very heart AKA the original fractal where all 6 forces originated btw).

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Shadowlands setting was poor because the idea of an expansion where Azeroth barely matters isn't a great idea. The idea was to show how insignificant we are in the greater universe of extended setting Warcraft: not exactly palatable with some people. Also bad story doesn't help.

If it was set in four-five afterlife pocket realms DIRECTLY connected to Azeroth, that would've done a lot better imo. We could get a glimpse of the greater Shadowlands in a raid or a patch zone instead of being stuck in a land almost completely disconnected from Azeroth and its races.

It's funny, cause SL actually goes out of its way to state the total opposite of what you said regarding Azeroth's significance.

The covenant realms don't need to be connected to Azeroth. This is the Warcraft afterlife, it's okay for things to expand beyond our world. Doesn't change the fact that Azeroth is clearly still important however.

[FossilFree]

Cosmic in WoW doesn't just mean outer space. It quite literally involves anything that's off world, transcends dimensional boundaries, and/or involves the functionalities of the verses cosmology, which SL does all three.

SL is about the afterlife, the realm of one of the 6 higher forces that shape the Warcraft universe. It is, by definition, cosmic.

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Heck, SL goes DEEP in the cosmology as well, as it has us not only explore the mechanisms of Death and the true nature of the Jailer, but it also has us learn about the powers that be, as well as one of the workshops and machines they created within the universal ether (This workshop being the Death Realm's very origin point, and the machine being located within the cosmic patterns very heart AKA the original fractal where all 6 forces originated btw).

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I understand the technical in-universe WoW explanation for "cosmic." That's why I put technically in there. However, if you step back and analyze the big picture, it's clear that the original meaning of cosmic and cosmos is not being thematically shown in Shadowlands. Cosmology is the study of outer space, and heaven and hell have fuck all to do with outer space. All the technicalities in the world aren't going to make the aesthetics of SL into something cosmic.

Legion is cosmic. SL is halloween, death metal, pumpkins, and bat wings. Simple as that.

[Cheezits]

The covenant realms don't need to be connected to Azeroth. This is the Warcraft afterlife, it's okay for things to expand beyond our world. Doesn't change the fact that Azeroth is clearly still important however.

Conceptually and on paper I would agree, but I think the response from the fanbase shows that it doesn't work for this series. Even the prior craziest expansions, TBC and Mists, were based heavily on concepts and races that already existed in Warcraft 1-WOW. Mists was a real gamble and still a lot of casual fans did not like it as it felt too "random", to this day even, despite it tying heavily to wild gods, titans and old gods.

They TRIED with SL- each zone is based off something that appears in Warcraft: Spirit Healers/Valkyr, the Scourge/Cult of the Damned, Elune/Faeries, Nathrezim. But in each case the lore reason they are like that is that THEY came first, meaning they really aren't those things at all (to the point that the Nathrezim connection is a fucking patch reveal when it should've been at launch) and it feels alien and disconnected. Its not World of Warcraft at that point, its Universe of Warcraft, because barely any of those things besides the Cult and the Nathrezim played into the events of WC.

[Joshuaj]

I think SLs TRUE issue as a setting is something a lot of people aren't saying, but are very much thinking. And it's not that it isn't JUST connected to Azeroth or anything, as universal settings like the afterlife can clearly work setting wise.

It's that the Shadowlands as shown in the expac HASN'T BEEN PROPERLY BUILT UP AT ALL PRIOR!

Throughout WoW, we've been told that the Shadowlands were nightmarish realms of decay, we've been told that it was the spirit realm, Dave Kosak originally wrote the Shadowlands as a Deathly reflection of Azeroth, etc. Heck, in the game, we've been to the "Shadowlands" on multiple occasions, from Death Knights entering there in Wrath, to us going there in BFA, to us going there whenever we die basically.

It was never implied prior to SL as being a place of infinite afterlives (these afterlives basically being made up of anything you imagine an afterlife to be, really, from personal paradise realms to bad realms, to religious or spiritual realms, etc), and that's what gets people so confused, so out of tuned from the expac. That, combined with the poor narrative choices of the expac and the clear lack of a proper blueprint to build the story and content forward, combined with questionable game design choices, and you have the makings of an expansion that, sadly, was never going to succeed.

The lack of Azeroth wasn't the problem for me, as I'm a fan of going off-world, so long as Azeroth holds some importance still throughout (which is what SL did, funny enough). The problem was that there wasn't any build up to the afterlife we now know about.

Seems Blizzard is rectifying that with 10.2 building up the Life Realm more, the Worldsoul Saga expanding upon Light and Shadow's rivalry, and the Worldsoul Saga expanding upon not just the Pantheon of Order's true intentions for Azeroth, but the Prime Worldsouls true nature entire.

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Conceptually and on paper I would agree, but I think the response from the fanbase shows that it doesn't work for this series. Even the prior craziest expansions, TBC and Mists, were based heavily on concepts and races that already existed in Warcraft 1-WOW. Mists was a real gamble and still a lot of casual fans did not like it as it felt too "random", to this day even, despite it tying heavily to wild gods, titans and old gods.

They TRIED with SL- each zone is based off something that appears in Warcraft: Spirit Healers/Valkyr, the Scourge/Cult of the Damned, Elune/Faeries, Nathrezim. But in each case the lore reason they are like that is that THEY came first, meaning they really aren't those things at all (to the point that the Nathrezim connection is a fucking patch reveal when it should've been at launch) and it feels alien and disconnected. Its not World of Warcraft at that point, its Universe of Warcraft, because barely any of those things besides the Cult and the Nathrezim played into the events of WC.

Kinda doesn't help that the Shadowlands stuff makes the Legion seem more incompetent than they already are lol.

But a lot of these things existing before the things we see on Azeroth can work. No need to assume there's no clear connection there, as there very much is. And while the focus has expanded on the universe entire, SL has made it very clear that the world of Azeroth is still important. Heck, Azeroth is quite literally the Jailer's final prize, the thing he's trying to claim throughout the expac.

New and different is fine imo, a lot of fans may or may not like it, but I'm not them. But it needs to be built up properly first. And, as I've said before, SLs biggest issue in all of these, with the Necrolords, the First Ones, etc, is that none of it had any build up. There wasn't anything to imply these things existed, because prior to DF and the Worldsoul Saga, Blizzard didn't think so far ahead in their stories.

Now, they do, and I bet they feel much better as a result.

[Cheezits]

I think it's cool, but also insanely telling, that they have introduced ways for both Nzoth and now Kel Thuzad to return. They are aware how badly they fumbled both characters.

[Joshuaj]

I think it's cool, but also insanely telling, that they have introduced ways for both Nzoth and now Kel Thuzad to return. They are aware how badly they fumbled both characters.

Tbf here, the way they re-introduced those characters is fine, and it doesn't diminish their deaths in any way. This is how they should handle legacy characters lol.

Heck, of all the issues I had with SLs narrative, how they handled Arthas WASN'T one of them. Bro was an evil monster, and got what he deserved. Fuck that guy.

Sylvanas having the final say while he evaporates on the other hand? Yeah nah that was stupid.

[Cheezits]

Tbf here, the way they re-introduced those characters is fine, and it doesn't diminish their deaths in any way. This is how they should handle legacy characters lol.

Heck, of all the issues I had with SLs narrative, how they handled Arthas WASN'T one of them. Bro was an evil monster, and got what he deserved. Fuck that guy.

Sylvanas having the final say while he evaporates on the other hand? Yeah nah that was stupid.

I think the TWS intro is a hint that Arthas still lives on in Anduin.

[Joshuaj]

I think the TWS intro is a hint that Arthas still lives on in Anduin.

Always felt that was just Anduin having a PTSD attack post-domination. Reminder that the magic is terrifying as it is. Imagine being forced into being what is essentially the Devil's puppet for lord knows how long (since time means nothing in the Shadowlands, and the Jailer can very much make these things last for however long he wishes). That would break any man. The fact it still haunted Anduin 3-4 years after the ordeal is insane. Kinda shocked he was able to sort of bounce back the way he did this expac.

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Luckily for Anduin, Death isn't a stronger power than Light (nor vice versa), and I think he knows that now, especially within areas where the Light is strongest.

[Ersula]

I understand the technical in-universe WoW explanation for "cosmic." That's why I put technically in there. However, if you step back and analyze the big picture, it's clear that the original meaning of cosmic and cosmos is not being thematically shown in Shadowlands. Cosmology is the study of outer space, and heaven and hell have fuck all to do with outer space. All the technicalities in the world aren't going to make the aesthetics of SL into something cosmic.

Legion is cosmic. SL is halloween, death metal, pumpkins, and bat wings. Simple as that.

When the devs talk about Cosmic, they're usually talking in the way the devs, at least until the Worldsoul Saga, they would alternate between Cosmic & Martial themes in for expansions. Basically in other words, they mean material versus immaterial. Martial themes are homesteads, building, crafting, ground warfare, wilderness, survival etc. Cosmic is space, but also spirituality, emotions, planes of existence.

By the devs own definitions, BC, Cataclysm, WoD, BFA and Dragonflight are martial. Wrath, MoP, Legion & Shadowlands are Cosmic.

[Joshuaj]

I understand the technical in-universe WoW explanation for "cosmic." That's why I put technically in there. However, if you step back and analyze the big picture, it's clear that the original meaning of cosmic and cosmos is not being thematically shown in Shadowlands. Cosmology is the study of outer space, and heaven and hell have fuck all to do with outer space. All the technicalities in the world aren't going to make the aesthetics of SL into something cosmic.

Legion is cosmic. SL is halloween, death metal, pumpkins, and bat wings. Simple as that.

Fictional cosmologies =/= real life cosmology.

[Ersula]

Shadowlands setting was poor because the idea of an expansion where Azeroth barely matters isn't a great idea. The idea was to show how insignificant we are in the greater universe of extended setting Warcraft: not exactly palatable with some people. Also bad story doesn't help.

If it was set in four-five afterlife pocket realms DIRECTLY connected to Azeroth, that would've done a lot better imo. We could get a glimpse of the greater Shadowlands in a raid or a patch zone instead of being stuck in a land almost completely disconnected from Azeroth and its races.

The Shadowlands setting was great, the problem was more the writing & mechanics it introduced. I'm hoping Metzen being in charge means less focus on Azeroth. I don't think metzen ever intended Azeroth to be the central figure in the franchise, considering the lore at the very beginning directly involved conflict between 3 different planets.

[Sondrelk]

I think SLs TRUE issue as a setting is something a lot of people aren't saying, but are very much thinking. And it's not that it isn't JUST connected to Azeroth or anything, as universal settings like the afterlife can clearly work setting wise.

It's that the Shadowlands as shown in the expac HASN'T BEEN PROPERLY BUILT UP AT ALL PRIOR!

The problem for me was always that while stuff like SL sounds fine in practice, you cannot really imagine how the expansion will feel nine months in when you are halfway done with the first main patch and all the initial goodwill of the novelty of the setting has burned out.

By the time you get far enough into the expansion you need to start considering how to make the new content exciting to players beyond just more stuff. And in WoW the proven way to make stuff excitikg is to look at whether the players want something new, or something nostalgic.
SL was already extremely new, so players were starved for something nostalgic. Which SL couldn't really offer without leaving the Shadowlands altogether.

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The Shadowlands setting was great, the problem was more the writing & mechanics it introduced. I'm hoping Metzen being in charge means less focus on Azeroth. I don't think metzen ever intended Azeroth to be the central figure in the franchise, considering the lore at the very beginning directly involved conflict between 3 different planets.

It was great. Just not for two entire years of sitting around. Once the initial novelty wears off you need something to keep players excited. And since the setting of SL was so poorly set up prior, there wasn't really anything to speculate about, beyond basic stuff like whether Arthas would return.

[Joshuaj]

The problem for me was always that while stuff like SL sounds fine in practice, you cannot really imagine how the expansion will feel nine months in when you are halfway done with the first main patch and all the initial goodwill of the novelty of the setting has burned out.

By the time you get far enough into the expansion you need to start considering how to make the new content exciting to players beyond just more stuff. And in WoW the proven way to make stuff excitikg is to look at whether the players want something new, or something nostalgic.
SL was already extremely new, so players were starved for something nostalgic. Which SL couldn't really offer without leaving the Shadowlands altogether.

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It was great. Just not for two entire years of sitting around. Once the initial novelty wears off you need something to keep players excited. And since the setting of SL was so poorly set up prior, there wasn't really anything to speculate about, beyond basic stuff like whether Arthas would return.

I get that, but there is such a thing as TOO much nostalgia, ya know?

I prefer going off world, so long as the story and content are good.

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And tbf here, your logic does kinda apply to every expansion area. 2 years Underground? On the Dragon Isles? At the Broken Isles? Any setting can cause a rift like that in the playerbase, Azeroth or otherwise.

[Khaza-R]

I think the TWS intro is a hint that Arthas still lives on in Anduin.

I doubt that. But I do think that was a storyline they concluded too quickly.

It should of lasted beyond the Shadowlands. And Anduin battling a remanent of Arthas could of being interesting. Certainly moreso than Sylvanas being involved at least.

[Sondrelk]

I get that, but there is such a thing as TOO much nostalgia, ya know?

I prefer going off world, so long as the story and content are good.

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And tbf here, your logic does kinda apply to every expansion area. 2 years Underground? On the Dragon Isles? At the Broken Isles? Any setting can cause a rift like that in the playerbase, Azeroth or otherwise.

Too much of one thing is definitely bad, not disagreeing there. My point ism ore so that starting with a premise that is exciting because it's new can cause problems when you inevitably need to balance the scales a bit with nostalgia.

Best case scenario is obviously areas that combine nostalgia with bring entirely new. Expansions like BfA, Legion, or even going back to expansions like WotLK. Heavily banking on nostalgia, but also completely new.
Problem is there isn't really any of those left.

It's easier I think to bank on nostalgia to begin with, and then go further into new and exciting later in the expansion.
It's why I think it's better if Midnight is Northern EK, going into heavy void themes later. Or why I was heavily championing making SL a Northrend revamp back on the day.


No expansion will ever be fully accepted by all the player base though, that is true.

[huth]

I understand the technical in-universe WoW explanation for "cosmic." That's why I put technically in there. However, if you step back and analyze the big picture, it's clear that the original meaning of cosmic and cosmos is not being thematically shown in Shadowlands. Cosmology is the study of outer space, and heaven and hell have fuck all to do with outer space. All the technicalities in the world aren't going to make the aesthetics of SL into something cosmic.

Legion is cosmic. SL is halloween, death metal, pumpkins, and bat wings. Simple as that.

What we're talking about here is religious/mythological cosmology, not scientific cosmology (and astronomical cosmology is not the study of outer space, either. That's Astrophysics). Which predates the scientific meaning by millenia, at that.

So you actually got that backwards. Legion is cosmic, yes, but not because it involves space. But so is SL.

[Worldshaper]

Nearly done with all the Anniversary rewards and achievements at long last, as well as December's TP.

Then it's time for a long-ass break from WoW.

11.0.7 seems OK, but it's clearly just content for the sake of content, and not something that interests me. "Come grind on this random island for a month, ilvls guaranteed!" Yeah, nah.

11.1 will have its bright spots, I'm sure. I'm happy for all Goblin enthusiasts out there! I've never been a massive fan, and right now it's giving me Zarelek vibes.

Probably come back by the end of it to catch up on whatever transmog it might hold, ready for 11.1.5 and the Xal'atath story continuation.

Not to mention PLUNDERSTORM!

But yeah, 11.2 (hopefully) and the 12.0 prepatch is where it's at for me.

Anybody super excited for 11.1 in this thread, despite the Tinker no-show (thus far)? Would be interesting to hear a different POV.

[Cheezits]

Anybody super excited for 11.1 in this thread, despite the Tinker no-show (thus far)? Would be interesting to hear a different POV.

I am FAR more interested in 11.1 than 11.2, as the Haranir are just okay to me as a concept (Troll/Nelf mix defending life is neat, but it's been done before plenty, just not combined) and I'm sure the Rootlands and Worldcore will not be crazily distinct ideas compared to things we've seen before (especially in Dragonflight- it will probably be straight up half and half Tyrhold and Dream).

Undermine is something I've wanted to see explored since Cata rehauled the Goblin aesthetic (one of the few things I liked about Cata) and this looks like a perfect continuation, hell it could've been released right after Cata with shittier graphics and it would probably look similar. This is very much an expansion-agnostic patch and I'm very happy to see Undermine, especially in an OC-island expansion that, despite being a very good expansion, still makes me misses EK/Kalimdor and the races within them.

11.2 will definitely be Earthen and Haranir teaming up to fight Xal, probably with druids for both of them, and that's a good call storywise. I just don't care about either nearly as much as I do Goblins. And it seems that they are putting the Nerubian story on halt until TLT, sadly, so my favorite race of TWW will likely not get a storyline continuation for years.

I'm only worried that Undermine won't be very big, which is likely why it's car-only besides forcing people to experiment with the new tech. It's the kind of lore zone that deserves proper treatment.

[Teriz]

Anybody super excited for 11.1 in this thread, despite the Tinker no-show (thus far)? Would be interesting to hear a different POV.

Obviously I'm very excited about finally getting to explore Undermine and delve a bit more into Goblin-centered lore. I'm especially interested in working with various cartels around Undermine and see exactly what kind of underhanded stuff they have me doing.

I'm also hoping that Undermine is a huge zone. If they're planning to have us race around it, I'm assuming it's going to be pretty big. I have a feeling they're going to use Zaralek tech and allow us to venture above ground to Kezan at will.

[Cheezits]

Interesting... per Portergauge's review of the new Isles book on Bluesky, they (Lor and Thal) note that something is going on in Neltharion's Lair, but don't comment.

Related to the Dark Heart/Goblin/Dragon Soul lore, maybe? Or Iridikron?

Also it ends on a tease of Tel'Abim! "The Island of Islands"