The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Joshuaj]

I like how everyone casually overlooked what I mentioned in my earlier post about the Beledar.

Xal'atath
The Beledar
The Arathi

They all have the same runes/symbols on them, featuring a crystal-like object being flung out of something circular.

Worldsoul or Sun? That's up for debate.

But the implications are potentially HUGE.

The Beledar might be of An'she!

Beledar being An'she? Mm...maybe? I always liked the idea that An'she, Mu'sha, and Lo'sho were Naaru. Heck, their names are structured the exact same way. However, I'm not sure I'd like for Beledar to house An'she, simply off the basis it'd be kinda anticlimactic, and it'd turn a primarily Tauren-based faith into a human and potentially elf focused plot. Considering how WoW is rn, especially in regards to how it treats Tauren characters, not sure I'd like that.

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My opinion on the Beledar is simple. Early concept art for it had a door and stairs leading to it. This may have changed but the original intention was for it to be a place you can enter, not simply a crystal abandoned through time.

Ofc it could still be a shard of the world soul. But that doesn't mean it has not been tampered with.

That's assuming said draft still means anything, of course.

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Shadowlands had a ton of concept pieces. A lot of them didn't make it to the final cut.

[elderu]

?

Again, you have to assume that what Archaedas is telling us here is the truth.

...

There is certainly some wiggle room in there being more to the Beledar than just World Soul essence.

Sooo.. which is it. I can't tell which cake you're trying to have and which you're trying to eat.

But assuming Archaedas is telling us a lie about something he personally oversaw in what amounts to his full confession is very much a stretch.

Except as defined by Dagran's line, he may not be able to confess to what he doesn't know. I'm not saying Archaedas thought/knew he was lying.

There is a difference here between what Archaedas first hand saw the origins of (Earthen and thraegar) vs the claim he makes that Beledar predates Titan's arrival, aka predating Archaedas's own creation.

He could have been told anything about what Beledar is, and that's the hook of Dagran's line. Whereas the earthen conditioning, that all happened during Archaedas's watch, it's first hand from him to us, unlike Beledar, which he was simply told about by his Makers.

[milkmustache]

Except as defined by Dagran's line, he may not be able to confess to what he doesn't know. I'm not saying Archaedas thought/knew he was lying.

There is a difference here between what Archaedas first hand saw the origins of (Earthen and thraegar) vs the claim he makes that Beledar predates Titan's arrival, aka predating Archaedas's own creation.

He could have been told anything about what Beledar is, and that's the hook of Dagran's line. Whereas the earthen conditioning, that all happened during Archaedas's watch, it's first hand from him to us, unlike Beledar, which he was simply told about by his Makers.

A big takeaway from the Earthen plotline was in fact their conditioning ans what that means for the various Titan installations across Azeroth. Putting this together with Archaedes' confessionals and Dagrann's dialogue following, it felt evident to me that Archaedes, a Titan Watcher, is just a rung up from the Earthen in the line of conditioning by the Titans. The Titan Watchers aren't beings complicit in this conspiracy, they are robots and tools made by the Titans to insulate themselves.

That's why Archaedes is puzzled by his own confession; he's programmed to say those things, even if he doesn't know why.

Beledar isn't the center of this conspiracy, but an instance that is relevant to TWW and lays a thread for further revelations down the line.

[Sondrelk]

Sooo.. which is it. I can't tell which cake you're trying to have and which you're trying to eat.



Except as defined by Dagran's line, he may not be able to confess to what he doesn't know. I'm not saying Archaedas thought/knew he was lying.

There is a difference here between what Archaedas first hand saw the origins of (Earthen and thraegar) vs the claim he makes that Beledar predates Titan's arrival, aka predating Archaedas's own creation.

He could have been told anything about what Beledar is, and that's the hook of Dagran's line. Whereas the earthen conditioning, that all happened during Archaedas's watch, it's first hand from him to us, unlike Beledar, which he was simply told about by his Makers.

If your argument is that Archaedas doesnt know what the Beledar is despite seemingly having found loads of similar crystals all over Azeroth that all seemingly look and behave like the Beledar, then sure.

Point is though. Not having the seemingly conclusive reveal of what is actually going on be a lie, then that kinda defeats the purpose of us learning anything at all.
Why should we trust anyone that "reveals the truth" in the future? The Naaru are just as capable of lying if they showed up and told us that it's definitely a Light Magic crystal. Same with Xal'atath if she told us it's a Naaru core.

What source of information would be enough to conclusively and unquestionably be the truth? Because ot's clearly not the part where we are being told the truth.

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That's why Archaedes is puzzled by his own confession; he's programmed to say those things, even if he doesn't know why.

By his own admission, he is programmed to not tell the truth to anyone. And the only reasoning he can come up with is that prolonged exposure to the World Core has given him free will, or at least changed his allegiance to Azeroth rather than the Titans. Just like what happened with the Earthen who became Thraegar after prolonged exposure to the World Soul.

[Enteroctopus Magnificus]

Beledar is a member of the Pantheon of Light who uses the worldsoul crystal to materialize in our physical world and take part in the Renilash. Change my mind.

[Ersula]

Beledar is a member of the Pantheon of Light who uses the worldsoul crystal to come to our physical world to take part in Reni'lash. Change my mind.

Why would a member of the Pantheon of Light randomly go void mode?

[Enteroctopus Magnificus]

Why would a member of the Pantheon of Light randomly go void mode?

It's not random. We learn that the first time Beledar switches to shadow mode is when Sargeras has planted his sword.

[Timester]

And Beledar could be the tip of the sargeras sword!

That we know that isn't, because there are other crystals on Azeroth, like the one related to Siren Isle.

[Ersula]

It's not random. We learn that the first time Beledar switches to shadow mode is when Sargeras has planted his sword.

That would be an explanation....if it was Beledar itself that was struck by the sword, but it wasn't. Azeroth itself was. Why would an alien god be affected by it that way?

And Beledar could be the tip of the sargeras sword!

The devs already clarified Beledar is not part of the sword. But it is possible the Crystalsworn relic on Siren's Isle is the top of Beledar.

[Timester]

Except as defined by Dagran's line, he may not be able to confess to what he doesn't know. I'm not saying Archaedas thought/knew he was lying.

There is a difference here between what Archaedas first hand saw the origins of (Earthen and thraegar) vs the claim he makes that Beledar predates Titan's arrival, aka predating Archaedas's own creation.

He could have been told anything about what Beledar is, and that's the hook of Dagran's line. Whereas the earthen conditioning, that all happened during Archaedas's watch, it's first hand from him to us, unlike Beledar, which he was simply told about by his Makers.

Then anything can be the truth and/or the lie, by your logic.

Like I said, it's bad storytelling having a lie over a lie over a lie. It's spitglue and it falls so quickly, Blizzard can't simply present now a new vision of what is happening on the world and simply saying in the next time "oh, it was a lie of a lie".

[Joshuaj]

Sooo.. which is it. I can't tell which cake you're trying to have and which you're trying to eat.



Except as defined by Dagran's line, he may not be able to confess to what he doesn't know. I'm not saying Archaedas thought/knew he was lying.

There is a difference here between what Archaedas first hand saw the origins of (Earthen and thraegar) vs the claim he makes that Beledar predates Titan's arrival, aka predating Archaedas's own creation.

He could have been told anything about what Beledar is, and that's the hook of Dagran's line. Whereas the earthen conditioning, that all happened during Archaedas's watch, it's first hand from him to us, unlike Beledar, which he was simply told about by his Makers.

Uhm, it's both? Idk if you've been reading the thread, but I've explained multiple times how the Beledar Worldsoul crystal thing can work.

[Ersula]

Not being An'she, but of An'she. As in, part of its essence, or its creation somehow.

The sun is not a crystal. You're trying to suggest Beledar is of the sun because the Arathi worship it, but the Arathi are not sun worshipers, even if Beledar is serving the same function as a sun for them. They worship Light.

[Joshuaj]

Not being An'she, but of An'she. As in, part of its essence, or its creation somehow.

I'll just assume I read that wrong, and you didn't simply edit the comment to make it look like you said that, so...yeah.

But fair enough. It being of An'she could also work, but again, not quite sure I agree.

[Limayria]

Then anything can be the truth and/or the lie, by your logic.

Like I said, it's bad storytelling having a lie over a lie over a lie. It's spitglue and it falls so quickly, Blizzard can't simply present now a new vision of what is happening on the world and simply saying in the next time "oh, it was a lie of a lie".

The whole point of him "lying" (being wrong) about Beledar is that it's a lie he was told by the people above him, in the same way he helped feed lies to the earthen to control them

A conspiracy at scale isn't just people lying about everything either, it's mixing true and false information to make it hard to separate fact from fiction, but there's a clear divide in the archives of first and second hand information, and in the context of the archives stories themselves being about how the titans use control of second hand information as a control lever it's communicating that there should be some level of skepticism towards second hand information from titan sources until it can be verified

[Joshuaj]

The sun is not a crystal. You're trying to suggest Beledar is of the sun because the Arathi worship it, but the Arathi are not sun worshipers, even if Beledar is serving the same function as a sun for them. They worship Light.

Tbf here, it is entirely possible An'she is either not the sun itself and is simply bound to the sun, or An'she's core would infuse itself with the Sun or it became the sun itself.

Regardless, I do think there could be Naaru links there.

[Timester]

The whole point of him "lying" (being wrong) about Beledar is that it's a lie he was told by the people above him, in the same way he helped feed lies to the earthen to control them

A conspiracy at scale isn't just people lying about everything either, it's mixing true and false information to make it hard to separate fact from fiction, but there's a clear divide in the archives of first and second hand information, and in the context of the archives stories themselves being about how the titans use control of second hand information as a control lever it's communicating that there should be some level of skepticism towards second hand information from titan sources until it can be verified

And yet, it's bad storytelling. You can't have a major reveal, changing the perspective of the world, and then saying "nah, it's all a lie".

Archaedas himself said he didn't knew why he was recording all the information if it was going to be deleted, as if he was influenced by Azeroth herself. Same Azeroth that called people to find out more about herself. It would make the entire plot of the Thraegar and the reawaken Earthen pointless.

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Regardless, I do think there could be Naaru links there.

Could be the complete opposite. The Naaru had to appear from somewhere, right?

[Limayria]

And yet, it's bad storytelling. You can't have a major reveal, changing the perspective of the world, and then saying "nah, it's all a lie".

Archaedas himself said he didn't knew why he was recording all the information if it was going to be deleted, as if he was influenced by Azeroth herself. Same Azeroth that called people to find out more about herself. It would make the entire plot of the Thraegar and the reawaken Earthen pointless.

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Could be the complete opposite. The Naaru had to appear from somewhere, right?

No on is saying it's all a lie, just that the character who we are getting information from could have been intentionally misled, in a parallel to how they are intentionally misleading people themself

I understand this is more complex than usual wow writing, but good writing is not "everyone always tells the truth and is 100% correct in what they believe is the truth"

The core of the reveal from the archives isn't anything to do with Beledar, it's about how the keepers are lying to the earthen to control them, and having evidence of th same tactics being used against the keepers would actually be an example of a well written parallel between the treatment the earth get from the keepers and the keepers get from the titans

Uncovering proof the beldar isn't a world soul crystal as meaningful evidence the titans deceived the keepers could very well play a role in TLT, establishing good relationships with some of the keepers even as we turn on the titans

[Enteroctopus Magnificus]

That we know that isn't, because there are other crystals on Azeroth, like the one related to Siren Isle.

The devs already clarified Beledar is not part of the sword. But it is possible the Crystalsworn relic on Siren's Isle is the top of Beledar.

It was actually an ironic reply. I've never believed this theory and have always found it incoherent.

That would be an explanation....if it was Beledar itself that was struck by the sword, but it wasn't. Azeroth itself was. Why would an alien god be affected by it that way?

Well, the sword is big and it's not that far from Beledar. The sword doesn't need to touch the crystal directly, as we know that the sword planted in Azeroth was bad for the whole planet. Its energy corrupted Beledar and caused the Day of Darkness.

Given the nature of Light to tip over into the Void, as we saw with the Naaru, it's not impossible that this energy could do the same to a member of the pantheon of Light. Beledar would be like a vulnerable chrysalis.

[Timester]

No on is saying it's all a lie, just that the character who we are getting information from could have been intentionally misled, in a parallel to how they are intentionally misleading people themself

I understand this is more complex than usual wow writing, but good writing is not "everyone always tells the truth and is 100% correct in what they believe is the truth"

The core of the reveal from the archives isn't anything to do with Beledar, it's about how the keepers are lying to the earthen to control them, and having evidence of th same tactics being used against the keepers would actually be an example of a well written parallel between the treatment the earth get from the keepers and the keepers get from the titans

Uncovering proof the beldar isn't a world soul crystal as meaningful evidence the titans deceived the keepers could very well play a role in TLT, establishing good relationships with some of the keepers even as we turn on the titans

Keep missing the point. The questline storytelling is about revelations, much like Magni's purpose on the first patch. It revealed new universe shattering informations.

Saying that part of it is a lie is just bad storytelling, because the memories reveal itself is about showing the real truth to the Earthen.

[Sondrelk]

No on is saying it's all a lie, just that the character who we are getting information from could have been intentionally misled, in a parallel to how they are intentionally misleading people themself

I understand this is more complex than usual wow writing, but good writing is not "everyone always tells the truth and is 100% correct in what they believe is the truth"

The core of the reveal from the archives isn't anything to do with Beledar, it's about how the keepers are lying to the earthen to control them, and having evidence of th same tactics being used against the keepers would actually be an example of a well written parallel between the treatment the earth get from the keepers and the keepers get from the titans

Uncovering proof the beldar isn't a world soul crystal as meaningful evidence the titans deceived the keepers could very well play a role in TLT, establishing good relationships with some of the keepers even as we turn on the titans

Which makes sense from a purely character based perspective. But not really from a narrative perspective.

We already had one assumption of what the Beledar is, what with it being light based and going back and forth from light and dark.

We are then told that it's actually world soul essence.
Now, if we focus squarely on Archaedas, then absolutely. He could easily have been misled and it's something else entirely but why would the story take such an unnecessary detour?

What is the logical next step is explaining what calcified world soul essence entails.
Is it just effectively a giant chunk of pure azerite? Azeroths immune system containing something inside? Conflux of ley lines? Etc.

All the explanation like it looking like Naaru symbols, Xal'atath's cloak looking similar, or the early concept art having a door doesn't really matter. All of those could just as easily be explained by something related to the Beledar being the world essence. Naaru stealing the symbols. Old gods looking for it way back when. It actually just being hollow despite being a crystal. Etc.