1. #83721
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    So while not all personal power it was far more power on his end compared to Ner’zhul.
    Not really, they still used pretty much the same method - collapsing a portal/multiple portals with a large amount of energy. Ner'zhul did it accidentally, and Illidan then copied what he did intentionally.

    The point remains the same, Illidan did not use his own power, at all. Dont take me wrong, he is a powerhouse, but that same result couldve been archieved by many other characters in his position, as far as we know.
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  2. #83722
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    Not really, they still used pretty much the same method - collapsing a portal/multiple portals with a large amount of energy. Ner'zhul did it accidentally, and Illidan then copied what he did intentionally.

    The point remains the same, Illidan did not use his own power, at all. Dont take me wrong, he is a powerhouse, but that same result couldve been archieved by many other characters in his position, as far as we know.
    Ya the method is the same the difference is that where the power to achieve that method came from and Illidan got most of the power from his self while Ner'zhul had titan artifacts.
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  3. #83723
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuaj View Post
    Why is it the biggest flaw and most exploitable thing? It being chaotic and disorderly is how the Disorder Realm should work.

    Also, why do you think it came before the First Ones? That would go against the point of them being first. Would also go against the fact there's no frame of reference for them, which further benefits the idea they existed before, well, everything and nothing.
    Well, first of all it allowed Sargeras & The Jailer to team up & almost destroy everything the first ones' created. So I'd call that a flaw.

    Secondly, besides that they're called "the first ones" not "the first things" denoting they were only the first people, we don't know they were the first of everything and they didn't even call themselves that. That's just what other people call them. You just keep conflating them with the Christian god & typical creation myths. They might have been able to part the ineffable chaos with their minds but the game's lore never states nothing existed before they enacted their designs; How they* describe it is that we, as mortals, would not be able to comprehend what came before, because everything mortal beings have reference for would be informed by the cosmology they created; but some things definitely existed before that.

    For Example, that ineffable chaos they made the universe out of: Obviously that existed beforehand.

    *They being the enlightened brokers, but anything out of writing can't be trusted their either....the brokers in ZM seem a little insane.
    Last edited by Ersula; 2025-01-04 at 03:39 AM.

  4. #83724
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuaj View Post
    Why is it the biggest flaw and most exploitable thing? It being chaotic and disorderly is how the Disorder Realm should work.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, why do you think it came before the First Ones? That would go against the point of them being first. Would also go against the fact there's no frame of reference for them, which further benefits the idea they existed before, well, everything and nothing.

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    God, this is so funny when you consider the fact the Lich King is likely stronger than Yogg-Saron's head, which is stronger than N'Zoth's head, which is stronger than Azshara and Deathwing lmaooo.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Yeah, Warcraft scaling is fun
    Didn’t the Keepers canonically help out against Yogg?

  5. #83725
    Quote Originally Posted by Telogrus View Post
    Didn’t the Keepers canonically help out against Yogg?
    That is an optional thing you could do in-game, but I don't think it was ever talked about in Chronicle, and Chronicle usually talks about these fights in extensive detail. Lemme double check rq.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Well, first of all it allowed Sargeras & The Jailer to team up & almost destroy everything the first ones' created. So I'd call that a flaw.

    Secondly, besides that they're called "the first ones" not "the first things" denoting they were only the first people, we don't know they were the first of everything and they didn't even call themselves that. That's just what other people call them. You just keep conflating them with the Christian god & typical creation myths. They might have been able to part the ineffable chaos with their minds but the game's lore never states nothing existed before they enacted their designs; How they* describe it is that we, as mortals, would not be able to comprehend what came before, because everything mortal beings have reference for would be informed by the cosmology they created; but some things definitely existed before that.

    For Example, that ineffable chaos they made the universe out of: Obviously that existed beforehand.

    *They being the enlightened brokers, but anything out of writing can't be trusted their either....the brokers in ZM seem a little insane.
    "First Ones" can mean anything. Being, thing, etc.

    Also, Sargeras and the Jailer never teamed up. The Jailer likely knew about KJs Lich King plan, told the Dreadlords to help KJ with it, forced the Runecarver in making the schematics for the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne, gave the finalized products to the Dreadlords, and the Dreadlords gave them to KJ, with KJ thinking it was all to aid the Legion.

    Would just be the Dreadlords hopping from one realm to the next. This isn't specific to just the Nether or anything like that. They do this with every cosmic realm.

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    Also, regarding the First Ones, this is what Firim had to say regarding them pre-pattern:

    "There are references to forces so primal that we have no frame of reference for them. Roiling and churning, or measured and deliberate? The words here have multiple meanings, I must set them aside for now.

    What is clear is that great powers took shape. How many? There are numbers within numbers, my friends. At first I thought only two, until I perceived an infinite array -- O, the terror of it! -- but as of late I have settled on six. Possibly seven, but the last might be an artifact of the geometry. A fractal."

    The First Ones, as they were shaping themselves, had no prior frame of reference for them. Meaning, they were...well...the first. Before beginnings and endings, before everything and nothing. It was just them. Fractal creation energies that took shape and were in constant strife with one another.

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    The whole idea of the First Ones is that we quite literally can't comprehend them, not even on a cosmic level. This is because they are above all of that. They transcend everything shown within our cosmology.

  6. #83726
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    It's funny how we have a whole new main patch datamined yet all I see here are some lore discussion that frankly, should be in the lore section, not here. Especially as you guys just end up in a circle anyways.

    So idk, maybe lets talk about the new patch instead of Shadowlands lore again?

    - Anyone else excited to create new goblin toons for each Cartel now that we have established colour schemes, tabards and mounts for them?

    - The raid renown is a great start, hopefully they will do that for each new raid going forward, and I also hope that it's actually only earnable during a season, giving ALL raiders (not just us cutting edge people) something to progress through during a season, "good" FOMO since everyone who just plays the raid weekly can finish it.

    - Seems like no pvp reward changes, but hopefully if the raid renown is something people like we will also get a rated pvp renown aswell down the line.

    - Speaking about pvp, the vicious mount (the eel) is super awesome this time, imo on par with gladiator mounts or the early glory mounts. If they had made me choose between the gladiator bat or the eel I would have chosen the eel!

    - Tier sets are ok now that I tried them in the dressing room, elite ones I like seem to be hunter, rogue and evoker so next season will be a chill one haha.

  7. #83727
    Herald of the Titans Worldshaper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Well, first of all it allowed Sargeras & The Jailer to team up & almost destroy everything the first ones' created. So I'd call that a flaw.

    Secondly, besides that they're called "the first ones" not "the first things" denoting they were only the first people, we don't know they were the first of everything and they didn't even call themselves that. That's just what other people call them. You just keep conflating them with the Christian god & typical creation myths. They might have been able to part the ineffable chaos with their minds but the game's lore never states nothing existed before they enacted their designs; How they* describe it is that we, as mortals, would not be able to comprehend what came before, because everything mortal beings have reference for would be informed by the cosmology they created; but some things definitely existed before that.

    For Example, that ineffable chaos they made the universe out of: Obviously that existed beforehand.

    *They being the enlightened brokers, but anything out of writing can't be trusted their either....the brokers in ZM seem a little insane.
    Tbh I feel like the First Ones should be more like Xel'naga from StarCraft, or the Protheans from Mass Effect. An ancient people, arguably the first real civilization, that became so advanced and powerful they could create order from chaos.

    The Eternal Ones, Titans, etc. would represent their legacy within each cosmic force, sort of keeping up with whatever they would've been doing had they still been here.

    The First Ones being these inventor-gods that came before everything else is boring and doesn't even make sense.

    Like, how could physical brings and places exist before the physical universe? It's illogical. Why would they feel the need to create order in a cosmos that didn't exist. If Life didn't even exist yet, why would they need Eternal Ones or a Shadowlands, or anything in that regard, and if they're omniscient or omnipotent enough that they could predict an inevitable force of Life, or even make it happen, then why did they shape it the way they did? Why not just skip the entire ordeal and all the ensuing chaos.
    Last edited by Worldshaper; 2025-01-04 at 10:24 AM.

  8. #83728
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    Like, how could physical brings and places exist before the physical universe? It's illogical.
    But who said only physical things count as existing? If conceptual or incorporeal entities existed without a physical universe that would still count as existence. Even as human beings much of our experience is only things that exist within our minds but those things still exist in that way.

  9. #83729
    Herald of the Titans Worldshaper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    But who said only physical things count as existing? If conceptual or incorporeal entities existed without a physical universe that would still count as existence. Even as human beings much of our experience is only things that exist within our minds but those things still exist in that way.
    Yeah, but not without physical brains.

    We've been to Zereth Mortis, and it all seemed pretty... physical. How did they produce Eternal Ones robots that we are able to touch, made from some kind of metal, if there wasn't anything physical to work with?

  10. #83730
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    Yeah, but not without physical brains.

    We've been to Zereth Mortis, and it all seemed pretty... physical. How did they produce Eternal Ones robots that we are able to touch, made from some kind of metal, if there wasn't anything physical to work with?
    Are we really trying to argue about Out-of-nothing Creation and quantum mechanics within a fictional video game setting where literal magic can poof anything you want into existence?


    Like, idk dude, they waved their pre-existential, higher dimensional, divine pinkie toes and did the same thing that a mage does when conjuring a mana bun.
    Last edited by Raetary; 2025-01-04 at 05:10 PM.


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  11. #83731
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    It's funny how we have a whole new main patch datamined yet all I see here are some lore discussion that frankly, should be in the lore section, not here. Especially as you guys just end up in a circle anyways.

    So idk, maybe lets talk about the new patch instead of Shadowlands lore again?

    - Anyone else excited to create new goblin toons for each Cartel now that we have established colour schemes, tabards and mounts for them?

    - The raid renown is a great start, hopefully they will do that for each new raid going forward, and I also hope that it's actually only earnable during a season, giving ALL raiders (not just us cutting edge people) something to progress through during a season, "good" FOMO since everyone who just plays the raid weekly can finish it.
    Hard agree.

    I wish that the cartel variatrions were a bit more than just different colors, but it does sorta make sense inthe goblin world.

    I'm very excited about the raid renown. If they're using the dinars system from Awakened/Fated seasons, that'd be incredible. It gives more reason to repeat raids, which should inevitably get people more ttained on the fights and able to prog! I like that they're seemingly making raids more accesible for people.

  12. #83732
    I would love if they want back and added a raid renown to Nerubar Palace that unlocks an AH and other features in the City of Threads.

  13. #83733
    Herald of the Titans Worldshaper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raetary View Post
    Are we really trying to argue about Out-of-nothing Creation and quantum mechanics within a fictional video game setting where literal magic can poof anything you want into existence?


    Like, idk dude, they waved their pre-existential, higher dimensional, divine pinkie toes and did the same thing that a mage does when conjuring a mana bun.
    You have a good point, however, I do think that even within such a universe, there are rules.

    For example, Khadgar can obviously poof new spells into existence without warning (see the bird thing with Xal'atath). He's got more wiggle-room.

    But a Dark Iron Mole machine can't suddenly fly merely because the universe is "magical". It still has to abide with its own physics and remain on the ground.

    In the case of the First Ones, it gets a bit tricky. One the one hand, they are portrayed as godlike beings. But on the other, clearly they have limitations since they needed to build and prototype literal robots in order to create their own set of demigods. They couldn't just poof Zovaal into existence, but rather had to follow a mechanical process in order to get him built.

    So with this said, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume their "factory" also needed materials, acquired from somewhere.

  14. #83734
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    This thread is about TWW 11.X patches and future Worldsoul Saga content, not Shadowlands or any other previous expansions. Let's get the thread back on topic.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  15. #83735
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    You have a good point, however, I do think that even within such a universe, there are rules.

    For example, Khadgar can obviously poof new spells into existence without warning (see the bird thing with Xal'atath). He's got more wiggle-room.

    But a Dark Iron Mole machine can't suddenly fly merely because the universe is "magical". It still has to abide with its own physics and remain on the ground.

    In the case of the First Ones, it gets a bit tricky. One the one hand, they are portrayed as godlike beings. But on the other, clearly they have limitations since they needed to build and prototype literal robots in order to create their own set of demigods. They couldn't just poof Zovaal into existence, but rather had to follow a mechanical process in order to get him built.

    So with this said, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume their "factory" also needed materials, acquired from somewhere.
    The machines and forges are for "rule of cool" stuff. We also know cosmic forges and whatnot tend to be out of ones very power. Meaning, the Forges of Wills from Wrath can do things the Titans can do with ease. Just because it exists, that doesn't make it a limitation.

    Also, forges like the Forge of Afterlives need to exist, especially if the First Ones are gonna do their own thing outside of the cosmology. Oh, and stop comparing the First Ones to the Xel'naga. They're not nearly the same. The Xel'naga would be akin to a cosmic pantheon, nothing more.
    Last edited by Joshuaj; 2025-01-04 at 05:46 PM.

  16. #83736
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    I'm loving the upcoming patch and all the tech (mostly goblin) that comes with it. One thing that blizz has nailed since vanilla was the crazyness of goblin and gnomish engineering. You can really feel it in this patch and all the cosmetics / raid stuff I've seen so far really show it.
    At the same time this makes me incredibly sad since as a die-hard Engineering fan since day 1 vanilla I still feel like this would of been the perfect time for a tinker class (I know, I know). I'm just so sure that if they ever decide to make a tinker class, it will be amazing since the stuff they've been doing with machines and engineering for the last 20 years has always been spot on.

  17. #83737
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    Yeah, but not without physical brains.

    We've been to Zereth Mortis, and it all seemed pretty... physical. How did they produce Eternal Ones robots that we are able to touch, made from some kind of metal, if there wasn't anything physical to work with?
    It's only "physical" cause gameplay needs to gameplay. Lore-wise, it's very metaphysical and the things there quite literally can't be comprehended.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    This thread is about TWW 11.X patches and future Worldsoul Saga content, not Shadowlands or any other previous expansions. Let's get the thread back on topic.
    The First Ones are likely going to be relevant for future expansions. I'd argue this is quite relevant unless stated otherwise. Discussing Zereth Mortis and whatnot to argue potential plot-points for future expacs doesn't hurt the thread whatsoever.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ochinko View Post
    I'm loving the upcoming patch and all the tech (mostly goblin) that comes with it. One thing that blizz has nailed since vanilla was the crazyness of goblin and gnomish engineering. You can really feel it in this patch and all the cosmetics / raid stuff I've seen so far really show it.
    At the same time this makes me incredibly sad since as a die-hard Engineering fan since day 1 vanilla I still feel like this would of been the perfect time for a tinker class (I know, I know). I'm just so sure that if they ever decide to make a tinker class, it will be amazing since the stuff they've been doing with machines and engineering for the last 20 years has always been spot on.
    I can't wait for Gallywix, man. Based off the leaked stuff, the idea of us battling him in a gigantic mech is pretty damn cool lol. Obviously it's not a new concept to us, but the more mech fights, the better.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    It's funny how we have a whole new main patch datamined yet all I see here are some lore discussion that frankly, should be in the lore section, not here. Especially as you guys just end up in a circle anyways.

    So idk, maybe lets talk about the new patch instead of Shadowlands lore again?

    - Anyone else excited to create new goblin toons for each Cartel now that we have established colour schemes, tabards and mounts for them?

    - The raid renown is a great start, hopefully they will do that for each new raid going forward, and I also hope that it's actually only earnable during a season, giving ALL raiders (not just us cutting edge people) something to progress through during a season, "good" FOMO since everyone who just plays the raid weekly can finish it.

    - Seems like no pvp reward changes, but hopefully if the raid renown is something people like we will also get a rated pvp renown aswell down the line.

    - Speaking about pvp, the vicious mount (the eel) is super awesome this time, imo on par with gladiator mounts or the early glory mounts. If they had made me choose between the gladiator bat or the eel I would have chosen the eel!

    - Tier sets are ok now that I tried them in the dressing room, elite ones I like seem to be hunter, rogue and evoker so next season will be a chill one haha.
    Politely, this lore is likely going to expand past SL, so it's very relevant imo.

    In regards to the next patch however? Yeah, this patch does make me want to level up a Goblin. I do hope this patch gives us more Goblin customization options.

  18. #83738
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuaj View Post
    The First Ones are likely going to be relevant for future expansions. I'd argue this is quite relevant unless stated otherwise. Discussing Zereth Mortis and whatnot to argue potential plot-points for future expacs doesn't hurt the thread whatsoever.
    This thread is for general speculation, as the mod warnings in OP say; for more thorough discussions the lore subforum should be used. There's more to speculating about future content than just lore.

  19. #83739
    Fair enough.

    Y'all think Blizzard should repurpose old world areas and make race-tracks for cars and whatnot?

  20. #83740
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    Yeah, but not without physical brains.

    We've been to Zereth Mortis, and it all seemed pretty... physical. How did they produce Eternal Ones robots that we are able to touch, made from some kind of metal, if there wasn't anything physical to work with?
    That's what I'm saying. Joshua is trying to say there was absolute nothingness before they created the cosmology. Especially in a setting where we have things like ghosts which are completely unphysical but still exist.
    Last edited by Ersula; 2025-01-04 at 07:29 PM.

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