The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[ImTheMizAwesome]

Tbh the Zereth Mortis announcement was much more cringe.

Water like you've never seen before!

Or was it "unlike any water you've seen before" i don't remember, but i remember jokes about it.

[Kiivar86]

Not sure I agree with you there.

While it's true people tend to find patterns in things, there's also no real reason to doubt the suggestion that Blizzard would plan things years in advance.

I believe Tom Chilton, former Game Director, even said as much around WoD, that they were going to be building expansions that tie more into each other from now on over multiple years (as opposed to the earlier expansions which were more standalone and just explored various cool themes planted in WC1-3 and Vanilla). This is later corroborated Danuser, who said 9.2 was kind of the end of "one book" in WoW. The end of the Lich King/Death trilogy, makes perfect sense.

Lo and behold, that's exactly what we're seeing.

WoD literally screams "TBC 2" in every way. Same location, same characters, same enemy, etc. Similarly, Legion clearly picks up where WoD left off, and carries out the invasion that Gul'dan set in motion.

The same thing happens with WotLK, BfA and Shadowlands. First WotLK introduced a bunch of stories, characters and locations (some from WC3 of course), them BfA reintroduced all of that (Sylvanas, Jaina, Arthas, Calia, etc) and ultimately set Shadowlands in motion. First with the Burning of Teldrassil, then the war and all the souls that claimed for the Maw (we know Sylvanas colluded with the Jailer at this time, and had mysteriously gotten his powers).

Now we're seeing the same thing happen to Cataclysm, Drahonflight and whatever comes next.

After that, it wouldn't surprise me if they pick up on MoP with a lighthearted expansion about pirates sailing to a quirky new land, without massive enemies on the horizon.

I can imagine them planning things out a few expansions, sure. But the idea that they're doing this "well TBC was Outland and Legion involved so our fifth expansion will involve Draenor and the sixth will involve the Legion. And then WotLK was Old Gods and Scourge, so expansion eight will be Old God and nine is Undead"

Its just such tortured logic. This is like trying to use Nostradamus' "prophecies" to figure shit out after the fact. Slamming a square peg into the circle hole hard enough to force it through.

[micwini]

Water like you've never seen before!

Or was it "unlike any water you've seen before" i don't remember, but i remember jokes about it.

Water you can walk on!!!!
I think the better thing they could have said was "water you cant swim in", because to me that was the real wtf moment when I actually played the zone for the first time.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

You'd have to be blind and deaf (no offense) if you don't see that WoD sets Legion in motion, BfA sets SL in motion, and that DF is setting something involving the elements etc in motion right now.

Obviously but another elemental related expansion seems very unlikely and I think that might be too much(I'd enjoy it personally but games have an audience not just me).

[Alanar]

Water you can walk on!!!!
I think the better thing they could have said was "water you cant swim in", because to me that was the real wtf moment when I actually played the zone for the first time.

Hahah, that is so true. Completely forgot about how weirdly excited it was brought.

Df roundtable still takes the cake honestly. "Its so awesome"

[ImTheMizAwesome]

Hahah, that is so true. Completely forgot about how weirdly excited it was brought.

Df roundtable still takes the cake honestly. "Its so awesome"

Honestly, these fake roundtables that some devs do for their games, always make you feel like they're treating you like an idiot with 2IQ.

I hope they won't have one for next expansion.

[Murlocos]

I don't buy into the "expansions post-MoP are planned reduxes of previous expansions all in order" theorizing. It simultaneously implies much more planning ahead than they actually do and also is too creatively limiting to exist as a set in stone rule. I'm also someone who thinks they throw out Old God whispers as a means to rile up discussion while having no real plan for them, to be fair.

On a previous note, I actually wonder if we'll see Metzen in any big role at Blizzcon. He's aged a lot in the 7-8 years since he worked one as the hype man, and I believe he's trying to work in a much more lowkey role now since he stepped away due to stress before.

[Lady Atia]

No way they're going to miss the opportunity of having Metzen announcing the next expansion if he's around T-T that would be brilliant

I don't think that would work with his anxiety tbh.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

Well, metzen was at very different position in blizzard than he is now, so he might be more comfortable now to do a one-off announcement, but if not then everyone will perfectly understand.

Like i mentioned before, just don't let John hight do it.

[Lady Atia]

Well, metzen was at very different position in blizzard than he is now, so he might be more comfortable now to do a one-off announcement, but if not then everyone will perfectly understand.

Like i mentioned before, just don't let John hight do it.

From what I remember he couldn't even really attend the last Blizzcon fully because of panic attacks. But yeah, I'm quite sure Ion will just do the announcement again.

[Worldshaper]

The question is, why would they build their story by following a recursive pattern instead of . . .I don't know, following where the story goes

I'm not saying that they created some type of elaborate spreadsheet 15 years ago and plotted out every expansion this way.

What I am saying though, is that first they did Vanilla.

Then they did a bunch of cool and original expansions with different and unique themes, each expanding on something cool from Warcraft 1, 2, 3, and Vanilla WoW. They just winged it essentially. Rule of cool and all that.

Then they did MoP, as a sort of break from all of that stuff, like Metzen said on stage during the MoP announcement.

That's when things changed, and they decided to go at it differently. They probably had some internal meeting where they discussed the fact that they had pretty much done all of the cool storylines which begged to happen after the RTS games. They needed something new.

So they announced that they would be making expansions that connect, with longer and overarching storylines from now on. So they did WoD as a way to kind of... do TBC again, return to that whole story and wrap it up nicely. And obviously Legion was planned before WoD was released, because we can see for ourselves that the story of Legion is literally just the rest of WoD. Almost everything that happens in Legion is a direct result of what happens in WoD.

Then they probably realised that they had a good thing going. They could keep returning to these old stories as a way to more easily create new lore, bring back players, and perhaps re-use assets a bit.

So they did BfA and Shadowlands.

And so on.

I can imagine them planning things out a few expansions, sure. But the idea that they're doing this "well TBC was Outland and Legion involved so our fifth expansion will involve Draenor and the sixth will involve the Legion. And then WotLK was Old Gods and Scourge, so expansion eight will be Old God and nine is Undead"

Its just such tortured logic. This is like trying to use Nostradamus' "prophecies" to figure shit out after the fact. Slamming a square peg into the circle hole hard enough to force it through.

Out of curiosity, how do you think Marvel operates over at Disney? They quite literally do this. They plan for the future of the IP, by splitting up groups of movies into different "phases" or whatever they call them. Then each IP also has a number of sequels, all planned in advance.

Why is it so strange to fathom the idea that a billion dollar business like Activision Blizzard, known for having IPs with lots of sequels and ongoing stories, would do the same?

Obviously but another elemental related expansion seems very unlikely and I think that might be too much(I'd enjoy it personally but games have an audience not just me).

I mean, we all said the same when we speculated before the announcement of Legion and Shadowlands.

"We literally just had patch 6.2 which was full of demons and Legion stuff. No way they'll do another one right away. Next one has to be the South Seas, why else would they build all those ship models for the Garrison Shipyard?"

"We literally just had an expansion with Sylvanas at the front and center. No way they'll do another one right away. Next one has to be a World Revamp!"

I don't buy into the "expansions post-MoP are planned reduxes of previous expansions all in order" theorizing. It simultaneously implies much more planning ahead than they actually do and also is too creatively limiting to exist as a set in stone rule. I'm also someone who thinks they throw out Old God whispers as a means to rile up discussion while having no real plan for them, to be fair.

On a previous note, I actually wonder if we'll see Metzen in any big role at Blizzcon. He's aged a lot in the 7-8 years since he worked one as the hype man, and I believe he's trying to work in a much more lowkey role now since he stepped away due to stress before.

I respectfully think you're looking at it from the wrong angle.

It's not like they're planning 20 years in advance, and only do expansions in order to tick some sort of checkbox. "Right, we've done Burning Legion 1, now we HAVE to do Part 2 and 3, before moving ahead to Death 2 and 3, and then Void 2 and 3". It's not like that, I think.

It's more like... well, see my earlier reply in this post.

[Telogrus]

and the Order magic which had always resided inside with the slumbering Titan.

I’m not so sure about that…

With the current lore, I doubt that Azeroth is just gonna be an innate being of Order. I don’t expect her to naturally belong to any of the six forces, otherwise the universe would be blatantly unbalanced. Frankly, I doubt that any of the Titans are natural beings of Order. I think the Pantheon was just corrupted by Order the same way that Telogrus was being corrupted by Void (until Sargeras split him in half) and Argus was corrupted by Death to the point where he became a being of Death (hence why he went to the Shadowlands when he died)

[Worldshaper]

I’m not so sure about that…

With the current lore, I doubt that Azeroth is just gonna be an innate being of Order. I don’t expect her to naturally belong to any of the six forces, otherwise the universe would be blatantly unbalanced. Frankly, I doubt that any of the Titans are natural beings of Order. I think the Pantheon was just corrupted by Order the same way that Telogrus was being corrupted by Void (until Sargeras split him in half) and Argus was corrupted by Death to the point where he became a being of Death (hence why he went to the Shadowlands when he died)

Anything is possible, I suppose. But I'm still on the "something to do with Titans"-train.

[Kiivar86]

Out of curiosity, how do you think Marvel operates over at Disney? They quite literally do this. They plan for the future of the IP, by splitting up groups of movies into different "phases" or whatever they call them. Then each IP also has a number of sequels, all planned in advance.

Why is it so strange to fathom the idea that a billion dollar business like Activision Blizzard, known for having IPs with lots of sequels and ongoing stories, would do the same?

I do imagine that Disney plans things out (at least with Marvel. Star Wars...debatable). But that's also a completely different company and generally medium(s).

I'm not saying they (Blizzard) doesn't plan things out, I'm sure they do. But I'm questioning how far. That whole theme thing would indicate that they had shit planned out generally for at least ten expansions from pretty much the word go. I doubt that when they were putting together TBC they were thinking of what they were going to be doing some fifteen years later.

I can't see it.

Like, fuck, if that were true the Jailer would've been handled a bit better at the least!

[Worldshaper]

For fun, here are a few sources which corroborate my suggestion that Blizzard returned to their old expansion concepts after MoP, that they plan expansions years in advance,

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/wo.../1100-6440686/

https://www.engadget.com/2014-08-26-...expansion.html

- - - Updated - - -

I do imagine that Disney plans things out (at least with Marvel. Star Wars...debatable). But that's also a completely different company and generally medium(s).

I'm not saying they (Blizzard) doesn't plan things out, I'm sure they do. But I'm questioning how far. That whole theme thing would indicate that they had shit planned out generally for at least ten expansions from pretty much the word go. I doubt that when they were putting together TBC they were thinking of what they were going to be doing some fifteen years later.

I can't see it.

Like, fuck, if that were true the Jailer would've been handled a bit better at the least!

That's not what I'm saying though. The specifics of an expansion's story, I am sure they are way more spontaneous about. Was it in Shadowlands, when they told us something to the degree that they had basically decided a major plot point mere months in advance? I can't recall what it was, but there was a discussion online about that.

What I'm suggesting, as the articles I linked above show, is that around MoP/WoD they started to develop expansions differently. They started returning to old cool stories from the past. They started to tie expansions into each other more, and plan more ahead. For example, they thought that Legion's story kind of started in MoP already. They also knew roughly what they could be doing 10 years into the future. Well, we now know what expansions we got over the next 10 years, so...

[Kiivar86]

For fun, here are a few sources which corroborate my suggestion that Blizzard returned to their old expansion concepts after MoP, that they plan expansions years in advance,

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/wo.../1100-6440686/

https://www.engadget.com/2014-08-26-...expansion.html

- - - Updated - - -



That's not what I'm saying though. The specifics of an expansion's story, I am sure they are way more spontaneous about. Was it in Shadowlands, when they told us something to the degree that they had basically decided a major plot point mere months in advance? I can't recall what it was, but there was a discussion online about that.

What I'm suggesting, as the articles I linked above show, is that around MoP/WoD they started to develop expansions differently. They started returning to old cool stories from the past. They started to tie expansions into each other more, and plan more ahead. For example, they thought that Legion's story kind of started in MoP already. They also knew roughly what they could be doing 10 years into the future. Well, we know know what expansions we got over the next 10 years, so...

I still don't agree, I'm sorry. I do think they do things differently but I don't think its the way you are thinking it is. I can see them having some general (very general) idea of how things will go, sure. But the theme thing we're talking about is too structured for that, at least to me, and also way too forward thinking.

We'll have to agree to disagree here, I feel. I just don't see it. I get your side, believe me, but I don't see it.

If it turns out the next expansion is elemental themed, then maybe I'll admit defeat, though. Or at least say there is some validity.

(I highly doubt it'll be elemental though)

[Hitei]

For fun, here are a few sources which corroborate my suggestion that Blizzard returned to their old expansion concepts after MoP, that they plan expansions years in advance,

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/wo.../1100-6440686/

https://www.engadget.com/2014-08-26-...expansion.html

They plan expansions like one in advance and then general ideas for the expansion after that.

None of that particularly evidences the reliability of random guessing at what a next sequential expansion will be about. Everyone has known that a second Legion expansion was inevitable since MoP had Wrathion worried about their return, but instead of going into the invasion, it sidetracked into WoD and then into Legion. Everyone has known Azshara and N'zoth were going to be an expansion since Cata, but Cata didn't lead into them, it led into largely unrelated MoP, and then WoD, and then Legion and then from the sort of entirely random point of "Sargeras stabs the planet and a war starts" it circled back around to that dangling plot line.

This is an elemental expansion. It could be the only elemental-focused expansion for the next decade and a half. The Primalists could be completely defeated and 10.3 could be entirely about the Void and go into a Void expansion. The elemental threat could be beaten but retreat and come back in four expansions with an elemental invasion from below. The primalists could be largely beaten and fall back into a role as a permanent antagonistic force that shows up now and then (this is imho, the most likely point of this entire "elemental" setup, because the Legion, Cult of the Damned and Twilight forces have all been largely destroyed, leaving a void for culty antagonist faction. The Elements could go completely wild at the end of 10.X, handwaving a revamp but then not being a major theme for 11.0.

It's impossible to tell because the actual pattern here is just "Blizzard has ongoing narratives and plotlines that they bring back at varied and arbitrary frequency". That isn't a MoP/WoD thing. Cata followed up entirely on Vanilla stuff, and Wrath stuff, and BC stuff. Wrath followed up on Vanilla stuff.

[Skildar]

Well, metzen was at very different position in blizzard than he is now, so he might be more comfortable now to do a one-off announcement, but if not then everyone will perfectly understand.

Like i mentioned before, just don't let John hight do it.

I don't know enough about the guy but he really lacks the energy and self assurance on stage to do a good job at entertaining the audience for the release of a new game.

But at the same time I felt that Ion was always making me uncomfortable during his first years at blizzard and today he's very capable when it comes to presenting new stuff to the audience and getting people exciting. I still have in mind that moments where he's like "so this is a picture that you're all seeing for the first time" when the thing has leaked all over the internet or "ohh that's why bolvar's eyes are red"

But I know I'm in the Ion seem fine as a director when most of the mmo-c community is on the other side or on the fence about him

[Worldshaper]

I still don't agree, I'm sorry. I do think they do things differently but I don't think its the way you are thinking it is. I can see them having some general (very general) idea of how things will go, sure. But the theme thing we're talking about is too structured for that, at least to me, and also way too forward thinking.

We'll have to agree to disagree here, I feel. I just don't see it. I get your side, believe me, but I don't see it.

If it turns out the next expansion is elemental themed, then maybe I'll admit defeat, though. Or at least say there is some validity.

(I highly doubt it'll be elemental though)

I respect that. But let me try to paint a picture here. Just one plausible scenario, as I see it. Just to illustrate that I don't think their planning has to have been so elaborate as you say it would for my theory to make sense.

2000 - 2004

Blizzard makes WoW. Literally just a cool "what if we did?" response to the possibility of scaling Warcraft 3 up a million times. Invent a bunch of stories. Pick and choose some cool stuff from the RTS games, name half the locations, items and characters after ourselves, and call it a day. Bit of a mishmash, but it worked. WoW probably never felt like a world as much as it did then! Anyway, I digress...

2005 - 2011

Blizzard creates their first set of expansions. Just experimenting with TBC (to do something different from Vanilla, as they said). But still picking up on a very logical story with Illidan and Outland. Literally among the last things we did in the RTS games, with the Frozen Throne expansion pack. Same with with WotLK. Systems maturing a bit. Concluding (or so they thought at the time) the story of Arthas. In a way putting an end to the Warcraft 3 story.

At this point, it seems very reasonable to believe that they felt a need to freshen things up a bit. Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms felt a little dated by now. They needed new stories to tell, since the Warcraft 3 source material was used up. Sooo... blow up the world with Cataclysm, and throw in a bunch of less iconic villains from the past (but crank up the volume to one thousand). So we got Deathwing and the lot. Didn't resonate as well with people, but hey. Not very surprising, since most players probably felt most passionately about Illidan, Arthas, Jaina, etc. after playing Warcraft 3 for years on end. For me as an old Warcraft 2 player, Deathwing sounded cool as hell. But I wasn't in the majority.

2012 - 2015

Then onwards to Mists of Pandaria. They likely felt like they had created a bit of a "big bad fatigue" for the playerbase. Also, player numbers had fallen drastically with Cataclysm. China was a growing market to tap into. Kung Fu Panda was a hit with younger kids. Anime and manga surging in popularity. It probably felt logical to try something different at this point (and I don't blame them, MoP was stellar).

It's unclear when, but at some point during MoP's development they likely had a meeting to discuss their crisis and dwindling subscriber numbers. I mean jesus, they had lost like 75% of their subscriber base over a single expansion. That's insanely worrying for a company whose main source of income was WoW.

I'm guessing that the meeting went something like this: "Fuck. This is bad. Remember the good old days? What did we do differently then? Ah... Illidan, Arthas, and stuff. Old Warcraft lore the fans know and love. Let's do that again!"

While MoP ended up being remembered as a really good expansion by most, at the time of its announcement and launch it was also wildly mocked by a large portion of the community. People called it Kung Fu Panda, childish, etc. This probably further pressed Blizzard to find a way to return to the basics. So Warlords of Draenor was planned. Some of its seeds got planted already in MoP, with Garrosh, Kairozdormu, the callbacks to the Sundering in Emperor Shaohao's animated shorts, etc.

I distinctly remember MoP's final patch feeling like it lasted forever. (It kind of did, 5.4 was great but overstayed its welcome by many months.) As the articles I linked above suggest, WoD (famous for its lack of content, development problems, etc) also had a recruiting spree during its development. So it was clear Blizzard was willing to invest, and bet BIG on a return to the very origins of Warcraft (orcs coming through the Dark Portal, Outland, Illidan, Khadgar, etc). But also clear that they probably did some major "steering the ship around" during this time.

As the articles also mention, Legion was planned before WoD was released. This is also very evident if you play through the WoD storyline. Literally the same characters carry over. Hell, the expansion's story even feels unfinished, because it ends with Archimonde being summoned by Gul'dan, Gul'dan escaping and promising an even bigger invasion. Blizzard also updated literally every demon model in time for 6.2, which feels a bit excessive for a single patch, no?

Anyway! The modern formula for WoW storytelling was probably born at this point. Invest in legacy material fans know and love and keep coming back for, and do it over the course of multiple expansions in a row.

2016 - 2020

I believe these years, and the immense success of Legion, basically convinced Blizzard to carry on with the same development model they had started already over the last couple of years. They had finally found their way back to form. So they kept going with BfA and Shadowlands, trying to get players to return by instilling a sense of nostalgia about Arthas, Uther, Jaina, the Lich King, and all of that stuff. It didn't really work that well, but by the time they realised it was probably too late to revert course.

Dragonflight was already well into development. No turning back. Luckily, DF is a critical success (even if player numbers remain pretty low). So they'll keep going with this "trilogy". But they know they have to bet BIG once again with 11.0. Drastic measured are needed. Hence, World Revamp.

- - - Updated - - -

They plan expansions like one in advance and then general ideas for the expansion after that.

None of that particularly evidences the reliability of random guessing at what a next sequential expansion will be about. Everyone has known that a second Legion expansion was inevitable since MoP had Wrathion worried about their return, but instead of going into the invasion, it sidetracked into WoD and then into Legion. Everyone has known Azshara and N'zoth were going to be an expansion since Cata, but Cata didn't lead into them, it led into largely unrelated MoP, and then WoD, and then Legion and then from the sort of entirely random point of "Sargeras stabs the planet and a war starts" it circled back around to that dangling plot line.

This is an elemental expansion. It could be the only elemental-focused expansion for the next decade and a half. The Primalists could be completely defeated and 10.3 could be entirely about the Void and go into a Void expansion. The elemental threat could be beaten but retreat and come back in four expansions with an elemental invasion from below. The primalists could be largely beaten and fall back into a role as a permanent antagonistic force that shows up now and then (this is imho, the most likely point of this entire "elemental" setup, because the Legion, Cult of the Damned and Twilight forces have all been largely destroyed, leaving a void for culty antagonist faction. The Elements could go completely wild at the end of 10.X, handwaving a revamp but then not being a major theme for 11.0.

It's impossible to tell because the actual pattern here is just "Blizzard has ongoing narratives and plotlines that they bring back at varied and arbitrary frequency". That isn't a MoP/WoD thing. Cata followed up entirely on Vanilla stuff, and Wrath stuff, and BC stuff. Wrath followed up on Vanilla stuff.

A Void theme for 11.0 isn't off the table. Remember, the ultimate task of the Dragon Aspects is to save Azeroth from the Hour of Twilight (Void Lords consuming Azeroth).

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I do imagine that Disney plans things out (at least with Marvel. Star Wars...debatable). But that's also a completely different company and generally medium(s).

I'm not saying they (Blizzard) doesn't plan things out, I'm sure they do. But I'm questioning how far. That whole theme thing would indicate that they had shit planned out generally for at least ten expansions from pretty much the word go. I doubt that when they were putting together TBC they were thinking of what they were going to be doing some fifteen years later.

I can't see it.

Like, fuck, if that were true the Jailer would've been handled a bit better at the least!

10 expansions in advance no, 1-3 expansions, yes thats believable. I wouldn't say they've planned all this since TBC, no things obviously changes and well its more complicated then I can sum up.