The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nymrohd]

No more exciting then ES's weirdness.

To each his own I suppose. To me there is nothing organic about WoW's cosmology. It's like one of the fans with an obsession with finding patterns made it. In ES the cosmology fits the history of the world. In WoW the history of the world is being "reframed" to better fit the cosmology

[Aeluron Lightsong]

To each his own I suppose. To me there is nothing organic about WoW's cosmology. It's like one of the fans with an obsession with finding patterns made it. In ES the cosmology fits the history of the world. In WoW the history of the world is being "reframed" to better fit the cosmology

Retcons aren't a bad thing and further more I don't see people complaining about cosmic stuff cause it doesn't "fit history of the world" If anything its just cause its cosmic.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Retcons aren't a bad thing and further more I don't see people complaining about cosmic stuff cause it doesn't "fit history of the world" If anything its just cause its cosmic.

I've always liked the high-concept stuff, actually. If it were written coherently or with a dash of uniquity, I'd enjoy it quite a bit. However, what we've gotten is dull as paint and frankly would be worth about an equal degree of contemplation if only for the fact that, much unlike the current cosmology system, paint can be used to make something interesting. The Army of the Light, for instance, was an interesting addition and I like the thought of a vast, golden fleet of Draenei out there fighting the Burning Crusade in space—I think it's a great shame that they were effectively reduced to a small resistance force on Argus because it vastly diminished what they can do, and a common element in fanfiction I think up is that the Army of the Light we've seen could only be a small token force of a much greater body. In spite of constituting a very alien element, being space crusaders led by geometric angels of materialized creation, I think something of interest could be drawn from it. Similarly, the Old Gods are quite interesting to me (though I dislike the idea of the Void Lords—I'd have much preferred for the Old Gods we know to turn out to be avatars of more powerful, aphysical beings).

What I mean to say is that a higher-concept setting isn't a bad one inherently—I like the idea of exploring the highest realms of fantasy settings and seeing how everything fits together. Some claim it diminishes the more grounded elements of the setting, but I think that's equivalent to saying that knowing quantum physics or practicing advanced theology means you shouldn't also care about your 9-to-5. Because I enjoy religious philosophy and physics myself, I find it only immerses me more in a world to know about its inner workings. The issue is when said inner workings are reduced to being a vehicle for a new set of loot pinatas, or worse yet another set of quest-givers to make sad puppy eyes at the camera in cinematics. Conceptually, WoW's cosmology is already pretty iffy—segregating every facet of reality into six entities that are effectively conflated with general breeds of magic is already pretty simplistic and inflexible, but it's further exacerbated by a lack of sensible exploration. By reducing every cosmic force to equal yet ultimately unrelated (save for in connection to their direct opposites) entities, there isn't room to expand the cosmology into something more interesting, such as a process or a conflict between some loftier, more abstract concepts.

I've been pointing quite frequently to Elder Scrolls, and I will cite it again. Elder Scrolls' cosmology works for a few reasons—for one, it remains one of the more distant elements, explored through in-universe philosophy by in-universe intellectuals instead of being reduced to a vehicle for raid tiers. Even Elder Scrolls Online, which is a fairly formulaic MMO, knows how not to reduce us to fighting Sithis whilst simultaneously foreshadowing that Padomay was actually fighting a greater evil all along. The vagueness of what we know further complements this—in spite of the setting being a few months older than Warcraft as a whole, there are still people speculating about Elder Scrolls and sharing theories and their personal understanding of certain facets of the cosmology. This subjectivity fosters a sense of mystery, and allows us to know effectively all of the pieces without showing us the whole puzzle. We know about the universe on its deepest level in Elder Scrolls—here is a somewhat muddy summary of it, and here is a pretty thorough summary of it, if you're willing to tough through Kirkbride's strange language. Had subjectivity and care been injected into WoW's cosmology, it would certainly incite more excitement. Perhaps the final component is that the process by which everything comes to be in Elder Scrolls is, in spite of being communicated in a far more convoluted fashion, works as a "process". Creation in itself is a process. Conversely, there's no real reason for why the First Ones bothered to sculpt out the Cosmic Forces to order reality. There is also no real interplay between them other than what appears to be an accident.

The original Light-Void idea from Chronicles did at least work in favor of this—it's quite similar to Elder Scroll's Anu and Padomay, really. You have absolute IS, then absolute IS NOT, and their conflict births the interplay of "maybe", or perhaps what could better be described as things categorized by what they are, but also by what they are not. I think that having an ultimate conflict between "IS" and "ISN'T" as a starting point is a very good one.

Perhaps one point that could've been interesting is having the Light contemplate on itself, then, as a benevolent and all-loving entity, choosing deliberately to let the Void emerge, because that would allow there to be distinction between what is and isn't, thus creation. The ultimate act of love, of course, was to allow things to enjoy the glory of existence. That is ultimately a fairly simple concept, but one which makes a lick of sense and really suits what we've already been seen of the Light. From this very simple interplay, you get an interesting, multifaceted conflict. You have an ultimate good and evil, but you also have goods within those evils—somewhere in the Void, you could have an element that recognizes the futility of trying to refute everything, so chooses to deliberately accept the Light and help it make creation by carefully sculpting it and defining things through is-nots. From the Light, conversely, you have an element – a Naaru, or a group of them, which grows too dedicated to maintaining stagnancy – that is confused by creation and doesn't understand why the Light made itself weaker by creating an enemy—this could maybe even be a Satan-figure, or a conceptual predecessor to Sargeras. If I were to open my mind to retcons, it would actually make for an interesting retroactive cause for Sargeras, being that he met the aforementioned Satan-figure while looking for answers and sort of married his pre-retcon motive of being disappointed in the futility of maintaining order in creation and his post-retcon motive of trying to stop the Void Lords by revealing that the Light deliberately allowed these imperfections to exist by creating reality in the first place. This inspires Sargeras. However, unlike the implicit suggestion that the Dreadlords deliberately exposed him to this, it keeps Sargeras as threatening and autonomous as he was, simply inspired by something on a higher level. It also adds more definition and specificity to his goals without making him seem stupid or reducing them in scale.

With this simple plotline, which is simultaneously far simpler yet far deeper than the current, self-destructive cosmology system, you have an ultimate good and evil, the opportunity for moral complexity within the major forces, and a greater conflict which will eternally manifest itself in Azeroth through the interplay of good and evil, as well as of affirmation and refutation. Existence and nonexistence. It is simple, effective, and makes Azeroth itself an important place without demeaning anywhere else or making it too important. Azeroth, as a nexus of cosmic activity, reflects the higher concept stuff, but doesn't actively channel it all the time. Finally, and most importantly, it reframes things without cheapening them or changing them entirely retroactively.

[Aurabolt]

Rumor has it Dracthyr might get access to other classes mid-expansion or even later this year. Should be interesting if that happens though personally it makes more sense to start giving Dracthyr other classes at the end of the expansion the earliest.

[arkanon]

Retcons aren't a bad thing and further more I don't see people complaining about cosmic stuff cause it doesn't "fit history of the world" If anything its just cause its cosmic.

Many people, including myself, really didnt like the "cosmic stuff". It was complained about as far back as TBC, and reached its peak in Legion, for obvious reasons.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

@Le Conceptuel

You do realize the Void Lords are WoWs version of the Outer Gods, yes? Hell, the name is basically downright the same. And outside of the "Good and Evil" stuff (which could still be a thing tbf, but through a different means), Light and Shadow are basically the same stuff as you mentioned before. The Light basically represents all that "is" with the Void representing everything that "isn't". Even the Old Gods are confirmed to be Avatars of Non Existence. The First Ones just encompass and transcend those Forces. Simple as that. Light and Void are still basically the same as they always were.

The Old Gods being described as "avatars of non-existence" is exactly what inspired my re-envisioning of the Void as something that isn't just an all-consuming opposite that effectively fulfills the role of an incarnation of "isn't", but the concept of "ISN'T" personified. This is also where the distinction arises. In World of Warcraft, the Void is portrayed as a pretty flat entity—it is sort of a black hole, something which expands and consumes. Although this would be a decent incarnation of the aforementioned "ISN'T" in action, I think that the Void is ultimately not played as the idea of refutation or nonexistence in itself as much as it could be. It certainly has an underlying theme of being something like that, but its incarnation is not really metaphysical or qualitative so much as that of an aggressively-destructive force that consumes and destroys. There's a certain layer of convolution that elevates something from a force representing something to that concept on a metaphysical level. This kind of dialectic would also preclude the existence of anything beyond it aside from a monotheistic, large-G God (which could also been as sort of interchangeable with the aforementioned portrayal of the Light in my prior post, with the Void simultaneously being a subset of it that it deliberately devised to oppose the subset we call the Light as it's perceived by us), as only an omnipresent entity could exist in such a state that it literally transcends the idea of "IS" and "IS NOT", and in the process sort of just becomes the ultimate IS anyway, albeit a higher level of IS than the other varieties of IS. The current, more hollow portrayal doesn't strike me as though the Void and Light are representations of the metaphysical concepts of ISN'T and IS, respectively, but rather that they are simply constraints of "is" and "isn't" insofar as the First One's domain goes, and even then they're less of "is" and "isn't" and more of "creation" and "absence of creation/destruction" in practice.

Also, a predecessor to Sargeras? Why would his predecessor be a Satanic figure? Sargeras started off as the Defender in the Pantheon of Order. No different from the rest of his family in Order. Besides, we already got our Satanic Figure in the Jailer...

My primary purpose in suggesting the addition of a villain preceding Sargeras is mainly in the interest of filling the hole left by forcing an entity like the Jailer down our throats. Although the villainous entity I suggested would constitute a bit of an ass-pull, I think it would serve two critical purposes—for one, it would cement the idea that different Cosmic Forces can contain within them good and evil qualities, though this would be expressed in a more especially thematic manner. Portraying the Light as ultimately good, but with evil subsets, and the Void as ultimately malevolent, but with good subsets, would allow for a little more versatility than effectively reducing every Cosmic Force to single-minded propagators of their own existence and domain. Secondly, and more importantly for the narrative, it would allow us to introduce a kind of villain that could logically precede Sargeras and continue to serve as one of the major recurring high-concept villains alongside the agents of the Void, but would do so without intruding significantly on his theme, motivations, and portrayal (i.e. The Jailer) and without demeaning Sargeras in any significant way. The idea of the main supervillain having some kind of overarching predecessor isn't strictly a bad one—back in the day, you had Kil'Jaeden as the most active overarching antagonist of Warcraft's lore, with the looming threat of Sargeras who was so distinct and mythical that it was up in the air whether or not he would ever appear. It is also worth noting, as you may be confused about, that I am suggesting an alternative to the sequence of increasingly-powerful and increasingly-bland LULEVUHL villains we are certain to be subjected to as we continue along Danuser's wild ride. This is not a suggestion for what to do now, but instead an exploration of a superior continuity that could've been—in this fairy-land of my making, the Jailer would not exist.

When I say a "predecessor", it is important to understand that I mean a sort of predecessor-in-spirit, in whose footsteps Sargeras followed. This character would demonstrate how agents of the ultimate Good can fall into disorder and, ultimately, evil, in conjunction with Sargeras. I suppose the best way to look at it is that Sargeras is the incarnation of this concept in the Great Dark Beyond, whereas this villain is the metaphysical representation of the kind of corruption Sargeras experienced. Where I think this is superior to the Jailer, who also followed a similar path to Sargeras, retroactively preceding him in doing so, is that this alternative villain explicitly represents an extension of this concept, as opposed to a simple repeat of it. It also would embody that recurring motif of heroism leading into corruption in a metaphysical capacity, which would probably be a nice reflection of the series overall and its fixation on the particular "hero fallen into darkness" trope.

And another thing, WoW isn't Elder Scrolls. One chooses to actively explore the Cosmic elements of its franchise more, while the other doesn't. The other also focuses on perspectives whilist also giving us a more clear idea of the Cosmology, while the other is all unreliable narrators and not just mere "perspectives". Both serve their series well, but there's a reason WoW chooses to explore it more.

I don't really think WoW has explored its higher-concept side more thoroughly than Elder Scrolls has—entire libraries, in- and out-of-universe exist for the purpose of cataloguing everything we know about this higher set of concepts. Again, the entirety of the cosmos in Elder Scrolls is pretty clearly established in both the Monomyth and Loveletter from the Fifth Era (and C0DA, if you're ready to slip into the really weird stuff). The point of difference isn't strictly in exploration so much as presentation. WoW's approach to it simply isn't as sustainable or interesting—this is done a special degree of disservice by the fact that WoW's cosmology is simply worse on every possible level, which means that further exploration is bound to be fairly boring. I'm also going to need more clarification re: your point of distinction between "perspectives" and "unreliable narrators", since an unreliable narrator is a narrator with a particularly narrow perspective. There's plenty of unreliable narrators in WoW too, mind you, it's simply that those narrators only come into existence retroactively as an excuse for retroactive changes to the lore. It's also noteworthy that WoW's unreliable narrators are, by this point, mainly agents of the Cosmic Forces rather than mortals looking out at the cosmos as a whole and making sense of it through their own personal opinions.

It is worth noting before I go on any further about Elder Scrolls that the series is still plenty imperfect and inclined to making some pretty objectionable goofs—the worst, and not coincidentally the most WoW-like, was in Skyrim's antagonist. Skyrim as a whole was a great release but a fairly weak Elder Scrolls game lorewise. Miraak and Harkon were pretty decent villains that upped the ante pretty significantly from the base game's villain, but Alduin was effectively the Jailer of Elder Scrolls in his portrayal. He was a massive disservice to the lore and a great big blob of wasted potential—in pre-Skyrim lore, Alduin is effectively the Nordic interpretation of Akatosh, who incarnates for them as a destructive entity interested in devouring the current incarnation of the world to bring about the next. This was a nice matter of perspective, as the Nords preferred to look at the destructive side of Akatosh, whose domain in Elder Scrolls is time, whereas other races see time as a more necessary and benevolent thing, even accounting for the destruction that comes with it. I figure that there was plenty to get out of having what was effectively an incarnation of the otherwise-benevolent Akatosh as a villain, such as an exploration of the virtues and sins of natural destruction via the passage of time, and whether or not that is ultimately a good thing. A sagely villain who needs to be effectively convinced (either through direct persuasion or by sword-meeting) of the wisdom of a few more sweet eras for creation would've been a very fascinating enemy to fight in a very great game, especially since Skyrim of all games is particularly well-suited to make the player feel inclined to defend and speak fondly of the world they explore there.

Instead, what we got was a villain very similar to the Jailer—a fairly one-dimensional villain whose favorite word was mortal, whose only virtue was power, and who enjoyed taunting the protagonist up until their final defeat which everybody foresaw but themselves. This is really part of what I think proves the value of execution, regardless of the setting—this is a very good example, I think, of where Elder Scrolls and WoW can take lessons from one another because it is clear that both settings can make the same mistakes. Character, weight, and convolution are all crucial for effectively executing high-concept characters—it's also important to weave their associated domain into their characterization. See again the Light-themed villain I suggested—what I have is an effectively-Gnostic reactionary who rejects the superior Light's decision to allow imperfection to exist so that anything else could exist, as well. This already gives you a strong sense of what this character would be like—someone who is short-sighted, cynical, and almost "spoiled" in a certain capacity. Contrast with the Jailer, whose portrayal does at least play with the themes a little bit but ultimately falls flat because he never really serves as a "face" for his metaphysical concept. A nihilistic and callous portrayal could've worked, for instance, though it is somewhat trite, because it personifies the negative aspects of death. You could even spin the Jailer's defeat into a sort of global acceptance of the concept of the inevitability of death and a triumph over the idea of death as an ending, tying together the theme that Shadowlands tried to give us about death simply being a new beginning.

Continuing my tangent, which has emerged somewhat as I write, one thing that Blizzard could definitely take notes from Elder Scrolls on is having their characters contemplate and acknowledge the weight of what they're seeing in cosmic realms. @Super Dickmann gave a pretty good description some time ago in his colorful Menckenesque way that effectively boiled down to "everybody's just gone from the afterlife, to the place where they made the afterlife, and all the Anduin hive mind can stop to think about is whether or not their golden prince is doing alright". Warcraft characters come off as incredibly unintelligent people when this happens because it makes them look literally incapable of any degree of self-reflection or acknowledgement of scale. There is literally no weight to going anywhere unless it clearly reflects on the characters and the profound implications are given some acknowledgement beyond vague lip service.

This tangent is a little confused, admittedly, because I sort of went from matters of worldbuilding to characterization, but I think this is a fairly good summary of some of my thoughts and should illuminate the meaning behind some of my prior statements. It's by no means all-encompassing, but I think it summarizes plenty of the issues with WoW's execution of the whole high-concept bit and why I feel the way I do on some of these matters.

For a final note, and to illuminate the foundation on which some of my decisions were made (i.e. those made re: putting the Light and Void at the center of the cosmology system), the cosmology of Warcraft seems to lack any overall purpose or "process". There seems to be no greater dialectic or goal in the creation of existence, even existence per se. It would certainly be very suitable to make existence per se the motive behind the foundation of the cosmology, I think, as it would really communicate the idea of "existing is awesome", which I think is suitable for a setting that emphasizes its world and the wonder around it so much. The issue with the First Ones is that they seem to have no real reason to order reality like they did, and any goal that may eventually be revealed for them to do so I doubt will be very appealing or sensible. Having the role of ultimate architect be fulfilled by a polytheistic pantheon is an especially stupid idea, because it seems to preclude the First Ones having the capacity to formulate metaphysical ideas that should theoretically include those which are requisite for existence in itself, and seem not to embody any of these forces in any capacity.

[Xilurm]

https://twitter.com/thegameawards/st...13352798490626

Earl Boen passed away sadly

For those that don't know. He voiced Terenas Menethil but mostly narrated every race intro from Vanilla to Cataclysm, along with the Death Knight class.

[Makabreska]

New mogs in 10.0.5

[Revamp Man]

So iridikron is possibly the strongest incarnate
Not because of power but also because of influence.

He had a hand in the djaradin and with how the whole "nzoth got a look at the future thanks to us" it's possible those two might team up.

Deathwing can also possibly return because:
Alex restored the oathstone expecting to get their powers back which includes Deathwing who if we go by the past precedent of "beings effected by X cosmic force become tied there" like Argus and the demons then he might be chilling in the void and getting a power boost

[Makabreska]

So iridikron is possibly the strongest incarnate
Not because of power but also because of influence.

He had a hand in the djaradin and with how the whole "nzoth got a look at the future thanks to us" it's possible those two might team up.

Deathwing can also possibly return because:
Alex restored the oathstone expecting to get their powers back which includes Deathwing who if we go by the past precedent of "beings effected by X cosmic force become tied there" like Argus and the demons then he might be chilling in the void and getting a power boost

Pls, no. Enough with resurrecting past villains.

[draugril]

I dunno why people keep acting like Wrathion has no leadership experience and is some greenhorn who needs to prove that can handle leading people.

The guy has, since infancy and for nearly a decade, been leading the Blacktalon, a world-spanning network of dozens spies and operatives. Your very first introduction to Wrathion is that he is nearly innately able to lead people, right out of the shell. Everyone also seems to repeat this idea that he has no experience leading other dragons, forgetting that Fahrad was a black dragon who recognized his authority and willingly followed him until the whispers overcame his loyalty. He also has, on three sperate occasions, directed player characters.

Considering that Sabellians only leadership experience pre-DF is the absolute colossal failure of helping Deathwing (i.e. following orders, not making leadership decisions) settle black dragons in hostile territory in northern Draenor, where nearly all of them were wiped out in the ensuing conflict; and then directing the player character to kill gronn in revenge... I feel like, if anything, Sabellian's leadership experience is really the one in question.

Being a charismatic leader and being a good leader are two wildly different qualities.

[Hitei]

Being a charismatic leader and being a good leader are two wildly different qualities.

How is he not a good leader, though? The Blacktalon are obviously well organized and directed, they're obviously kept sufficiently supplied and supported hence their ability to be all over the place getting things done; so he's either great at logistics or good at delegating those logistical supervisions to an appropriate underling. He very successfully spearheaded the counter against N'zoth's threat. He very, very successfully led the Rogue PC in Cataclysm. Ethics aside, his gambit in MoP leading from the shadows only failed because of Varian's nonsensical "it's all good, Horde, don't do it again though" stance at the end.

The time that he did seriously fuck up (i.e. garrosh being freed), it wasn't even a situation involving his leadership, but his actions as an individual actor working with Kairoz.

[Ersula]

Just once I'd like to see a major villain be a character who starts in the same position as the player characters. Some dude who is part of our big expedition, named Blackflag or Necroblight or something; who over the course of the expansion, sides with the paint-by-numbers start-of-expansion bad guy fraction & supplants their clearly incompetent leadership, funded by a pyramid scheme of herb-farmers.

[Kokolums]

Just once I'd like to see a major villain be a character who starts in the same position as the player characters. Some dude who is part of our big expedition, named Blackflag or Necroblight or something; who over the course of the expansion, sides with the paint-by-numbers start-of-expansion bad guy fraction & supplants their clearly incompetent leadership, funded by a pyramid scheme of herb-farmers.

sounds like some nondescript goblin that makes a bunch of money off of selling nogginfogger or something and becomes a big bad.

[Nymrohd]

How is he not a good leader, though? The Blacktalon are obviously well organized and directed, they're obviously kept sufficiently supplied and supported hence their ability to be all over the place getting things done; so he's either great at logistics or good at delegating those logistical supervisions to an appropriate underling. He very successfully spearheaded the counter against N'zoth's threat. He very, very successfully led the Rogue PC in Cataclysm. Ethics aside, his gambit in MoP leading from the shadows only failed because of Varian's nonsensical "it's all good, Horde, don't do it again though" stance at the end.

The time that he did seriously fuck up (i.e. garrosh being freed), it wasn't even a situation involving his leadership, but his actions as an individual actor working with Kairoz.

Heck if not for Jaina, you could easily have had the blood elves AND tauren joining the Alliance before the end of the MoP storyline.

[Varodoc]

So iridikron is possibly the strongest incarnate
Not because of power but also because of influence.

He had a hand in the djaradin and with how the whole "nzoth got a look at the future thanks to us" it's possible those two might team up.

Deathwing can also possibly return because:
Alex restored the oathstone expecting to get their powers back which includes Deathwing who if we go by the past precedent of "beings effected by X cosmic force become tied there" like Argus and the demons then he might be chilling in the void and getting a power boost

Iridrikon is an obvious parallel to Deathwing. Their design and title (Earth-Warder/Stonescaled) already makes it obvious, but there's more. They both struck terrible bargains out of desperation, ironically for opposite reasons. Deathwing struck a bargain because he needed power to defeat the Primal Incarnates. Iridrikon struck a bargain because he needed power to continue his fight with the Aspects. They are paralleled. And the exact term "desperate" is used for both; Alexstrasza, in the post-Raszageth raid cinematic, refers to Iridrikon as "desperate". Nozdormu, in the Legacies final cinematic, referred to Neltharion as "desperate".

And we all thought that this whisper from Legion Il'gynoth referred to Deathwing, but it refers to Iridrikon too:

From the earth, he draws strength. Our earth. Our strength.

From recent revelations about Galakrond, we also know that this whisper referred to Galakrond too and that Iridikron is also paralleled with Galakrond. He was corrupted and mutated after drinking dark waters that were twisted by Yogg-Saron. And this will be Iridrikon's fate too. Just look at the new N'Zoth whispers, they literally tell you what is going to happen in the Underground patch:

You will follow him to the deep places. The dark waters will flow in his wake.

With many eyes, they will see again. They will drink, and be uplifted.
Deeper, deeper its roots will reach. Welcoming our embrace.
Her dreams sing beneath the surface. Our dreams. Our song.

This also ties perfectly with old lore. We know that a distinctive mark of Old God mutation is the growth of multiple eyes. See Cho'gall. And speaking of Cho'gall, we know that he was mutated by C'Thun's spirit, meaning that the Old Gods most certainly do not need physical bodies to affect living creatures, they are, in fact, more than capable of messing with the world even when they are "defeated". As they exist outside the cycle. They are beyond life and death. They are beyond the cycle.

This is all very predictable.

"You will follow him to the deep places" -> End of Forbidden Reach 10.07, we will follow Iridrikon to the Underground zone for 10.1. Blizzard also said that the end of Forbidden Reach will make it clear to where we're going next. And, btw, Forbidden Reach was created by Deathwing and it's where he made the final bargain with N'Zoth and finally fell from grace. That place is intrinsically tied to Deathwing/Old God lore.

"The dark waters will flow in his wake." -> Referring to the underground waters corrupted by the Old Gods. I suspect that it will be N'Zoth to corrupt these waterse and Iridrikon; since he is the Old God whispering all of this, after all. The new whispers come entirely from him (the other Old Gods' whispers from that questline are just recycled from the past).

"With many eyes, they will see again. They will drink, and be uplifted." -> Referring to Iridrikon's inevitable fate, the same as Deathwing's and Galakrond's; he will drink the dark waters, be corrupted by the Old Gods, and mutate into a many-eyed beast.

Even if the Underground patch hadn't been leaked early, it's pretty obvious that this is where the story is headed. And if you think the Old Gods shenanigans end here, you're mistaken, because the rest of Dragonflight will be about Murozond and the Infinites; who are also Old Gods puppets.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

New mogs in 10.0.5

Seeing a couple of what I think are updated old models there.

[Gurahk]

How is he not a good leader, though? The Blacktalon are obviously well organized and directed, they're obviously kept sufficiently supplied and supported hence their ability to be all over the place getting things done; so he's either great at logistics or good at delegating those logistical supervisions to an appropriate underling. He very successfully spearheaded the counter against N'zoth's threat. He very, very successfully led the Rogue PC in Cataclysm. Ethics aside, his gambit in MoP leading from the shadows only failed because of Varian's nonsensical "it's all good, Horde, don't do it again though" stance at the end.

The time that he did seriously fuck up (i.e. garrosh being freed), it wasn't even a situation involving his leadership, but his actions as an individual actor working with Kairoz.

He almost got us all killed during the N'zoth invasion because of his stupid decisions, we only managed to make it because of Ra'den.
Not to mention, "dismantling the Horde" is and would always be a stupid decision, and is backed by the bronze dragons.

[Al Gorefiend]

, we already got our Satanic Figure in the Jailer...

Definitely not. I'm going with Jailer being downplayed and depowered in any future lore mentions, if he ever has a single one.

- - - Updated - - -

How is he not a good leader, though? The Blacktalon are obviously well organized and directed, they're obviously kept sufficiently supplied and supported hence their ability to be all over the place getting things done; so he's either great at logistics or good at delegating those logistical supervisions to an appropriate underling. He very successfully spearheaded the counter against N'zoth's threat. He very, very successfully led the Rogue PC in Cataclysm. Ethics aside, his gambit in MoP leading from the shadows only failed because of Varian's nonsensical "it's all good, Horde, don't do it again though" stance at the end.

The time that he did seriously fuck up (i.e. garrosh being freed), it wasn't even a situation involving his leadership, but his actions as an individual actor working with Kairoz.

Him acting independently with a shady character like Kairoz does reflect on his leadership though

[Revamp Man]

Pls, no. Enough with resurrecting past villains.

I didn't say it was good