The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Hitei]

2012 - 2015

Then onwards to Mists of Pandaria. They likely felt like they had created a bit of a "big bad fatigue" for the playerbase. Also, player numbers had fallen drastically with Cataclysm. China was a growing market to tap into. Kung Fu Panda was a hit with younger kids. Anime and manga surging in popularity. It probably felt logical to try something different at this point (and I don't blame them, MoP was stellar).

It's unclear when, but at some point during MoP's development they likely had a meeting to discuss their crisis and dwindling subscriber numbers. I mean jesus, they had lost like 75% of their subscriber base over a single expansion. That's insanely worrying for a company whose main source of income was WoW.

I'm guessing that the meeting went something like this: "Fuck. This is bad. Remember the good old days? What did we do differently then? Ah... Illidan, Arthas, and stuff. Old Warcraft lore the fans know and love. Let's do that again!"

Your theory sorta falls apart here though. MoP itself was an attempt to get back to the previous status quo. They felt that they had been too dark and heavy and wanted to get back to the core pieces of WoW: exploring a fantastical mysterious place and Horde and Alliance fighting. WoD wasn't about imitating past golden ages with wow, it was a highly experimental attempt to go back to WC3 roots, specifically because a lot of people playing by then had never touched WC3, so they wanted an in-game way to see those origins of the Horde.

BfA and Shadowlands were both largely about cleaning up old unresolved plotlines. They "cleaned up" the faction conflict, the Azshara (herald of N'zoth) line, N'zoth and the Old Gods, Sylvanas and the identity of the Horde, Arthas. Shadowlands is very obviously an "end of the era" expansion.

DF is very much (in their own words) the start of a new book. Which also makes it impossible to actually guess with any certainty what is coming next. It is an expansion establishing a bunch of new threats. New elemental forces and cults, new void incursions, recasting Azshara as a threat free of the Old Gods' agenda, refreshing the Infinite flight, a larger focus on the six way opposition of the cosmic forces.

It's unlikely, in my opinion, that 11.0 will be an elemental expansion, because they're not going to want to get rid of/deal with the new elemental antagonism right after they've established them. The Incarnates will be dealt/bargained with, the primalists will endure as an anti-order/titan faction attempting to free Azeroth back to a primordial state. 11.0 will likely also introduce a bunch of new potential oppositions, so that there's a large roster of things to pull from in the coming years.

[Kiivar86]

I respect that. But let me try to paint a picture here. Just one plausible scenario, as I see it. Just to illustrate that I don't think their planning has to have been so elaborate as you say it would for my theory to make sense.

You certainly are persuasive, I'll give you that!

When laid out like that I can see your side better. Still think my line of thought is right though, but if I'm wrong, trust me, I'll be upfront and eat my crow.

[Worldshaper]

Your theory sorta falls apart here though. MoP itself was an attempt to get back to the previous status quo. They felt that they had been too dark and heavy and wanted to get back to the core pieces of WoW: exploring a fantastical mysterious place and Horde and Alliance fighting. WoD wasn't about imitating past golden ages with wow, it was a highly experimental attempt to go back to WC3 roots, specifically because a lot of people playing by then had never touched WC3, so they wanted an in-game way to see those origins of the Horde.

BfA and Shadowlands were both largely about cleaning up old unresolved plotlines. They "cleaned up" the faction conflict, the Azshara (herald of N'zoth) line, N'zoth and the Old Gods, Sylvanas and the identity of the Horde, Arthas. Shadowlands is very obviously an "end of the era" expansion.

DF is very much (in their own words) the start of a new book. Which also makes it impossible to actually guess with any certainty what is coming next. It is an expansion establishing a bunch of new threats. New elemental forces and cults, new void incursions, recasting Azshara as a threat free of the Old Gods' agenda, refreshing the Infinite flight, a larger focus on the six way opposition of the cosmic forces.

It's unlikely, in my opinion, that 11.0 will be an elemental expansion, because they're not going to want to get rid of/deal with the new elemental antagonism right after they've established them. The Incarnates will be dealt/bargained with, the primalists will endure as an anti-order/titan faction attempting to free Azeroth back to a primordial state. 11.0 will likely also introduce a bunch of new potential oppositions, so that there's a large roster of things to pull from in the coming years.

I'm confused by your first paragraph. That's literally what I said in my post, isn't it? That they worried they had given players a "big bad fatigue" (e.g. too much doom and gloom with world ending threats). That was a huge part of what they made MoP, I think. Metzen spoke vividly about this when he introduced the expansion. Oh, and I just recalled another interesting bit of information. On a launch event for MoP, Metzen was up on stage and took questions. One question from the audience was about Turalyon and Alleria, and whether they'd ever return to Azeroth. Metzen said "in terms of what's coming next, you're gonna need their help", attempting not to spoil too much of the story. So at that point already, he knew many of the story elements they were cooking up for Legion.

What you say about WoD is also not counter to what I said. I said it was an attempt to return to the good old days, and lore lore fans know and love. In fact, I mentioned the value of WoW's "WC3 roots" several times in my post. The mistake you're making though, I feel like, is not considering business in your thinking. You seem to be going entirely based on what they say in official PR, and not at all on what the market or subscription numbers looked like, Blizzard's (then) financial dilemmas, etc. You gotta take those things into account dude.

As for BfA and Shadowlands, yes they were absolutely aimed at cleaning up old and unresolved storylines. That's a large point I was making in my post. That WoD -> Legion and later BfA -> Shadowlands had a large emphasis on revisiting old lore, connecting to past stories and characters, and so on. You are also correct in saying Shadowlands was an "end of an era"-expansion, which is something I mentioned in my post. Danuser clearly said 9.2 closed one book and opened another, or something to that degree. That's what I'm arguing. Legion (at least for now) closed the book on the Burning Legion, Shadowlands (at least for now) closed the book on Arthas, the Scourge and all that business, and 11.0 will (at least for now) close the book on the Old Gods, Elementals, etc,

You are absolutely right in saying DF is the start of something new. It is! Because Shadowlands was the end of something else! Notice the sharp constrast between Legion/BfA and then Shadowlands/Dragonflight. The reason for that is precisely because they are all part of their own trilogies (one might say of "books").

Note that I'm not suggesting 11.0 has to go all-in on elementals, nor am I saying that if they were to do so, we'll never see the elementals again. Demons are still around after Legion. The undead are still around after Shadowlands. We're not deleting those cosmic forces from the universe, merely concluding large stories focusing on them, going back all the way to Warcraft 3. New stories will open up in the future. We will meet characters like Illidan again at some point.

As far as I'm concerned, 11.0 likely involves Old Gods and/or the Void in a more primal form in some way, the elements and/or the Elementals in some form, and characters like Thrall, the Dragon Aspects, etc. Likely, some Old God or other notable character representing the Void will also be present. (Queen Azshara? Xal'atath? Who knows.) I also believe a World Revamp is likely. With the end of 11.0, I do believe we'll be seeing less of the above for a while. That's it.

Then when 12.0 comes around, I think it's plausible, but not for certain, that we'll have a very jolly and relaxed expansion where we follow the Pirate Armada and look for Avaloren or something to that degree.

- - - Updated - - -

You certainly are persuasive, I'll give you that!

When laid out like that I can see your side better. Still think my line of thought is right though, but if I'm wrong, trust me, I'll be upfront and eat my crow.

I think it's fine to stick to your guns and so on. It's fun to discuss this subject, and if we all agree then there can't be any debate (nor any "winners" or "losers" once BlizzCon rolls around).

For the record, and not that it matters much, but I was in a similar type of situation back in 2015. Just before Legion was around. Using a different name (MojoRisin), I used to argue that 7.0 would be the first expansion not to be announced at BlizzCon. It would be announced at Gamescom. I did my research, referenced a bunch of articles, quotes from developers, and so on. Literally nobody believed me. Well, that time I was right.

That's not to say I will be this time. :-) Just saying, sometimes grand and sweeping theories do end up being true.

[Hitei]

I'm confused by your first paragraph. That's literally what I said in my post, isn't it? That they worried they had given players a "big bad fatigue" (e.g. too much doom and gloom with world ending threats). That was a huge part of what they made MoP, I think. Metzen spoke vividly about this when he introduced the expansion. Oh, and I just recalled another interesting bit of information. On a launch event for MoP, Metzen was up on stage and took questions. One question from the audience was about Turalyon and Alleria, and whether they'd ever return to Azeroth. Metzen said "in terms of what's coming next, you're gonna need their help", attempting not to spoil too much of the story. So at that point already, he knew many of the story elements they were cooking up for Legion.

What you say about WoD is also not counter to what I said. I said it was an attempt to return to the good old days, and lore lore fans know and love. In fact, I mentioned the value of WoW's "WC3 roots" several times in my post. The mistake you're making though, I feel like, is not considering business in your thinking. You seem to be going entirely based on what they say in official PR, and not at all on what the market or subscription numbers looked like, Blizzard's (then) financial dilemmas, etc. You gotta take those things into account dude.

The way you framed it made it sound like they felt MoP was too much of a departure from the established warcraft-ness of TBC through Cata. You specifically said "they wanted to try something different (anime, kung fu panda, etc) but MoP was their attempt to get back to the core structure of exploration and war, not attempt something new.

I'm not really basing this on PR, it's evident in the in-game design. WoD wasn't attempting to capitalize on nostalgic fans, that would have been an alternate Lordaeron or something. To begin with "old WC3 fans" was far from a viable market group to appeal to at that stage in the game. I am 100% considering business in my thinking. The profit they were chasing are newer people who hadn't experienced WC3, with newer interests (player housing), expecting newer looking content (race visual updates). WoD was a bet on novelty, not a return to basics. MoP was the return to basics.

As for BfA and Shadowlands, yes they were absolutely aimed at cleaning up old and unresolved storylines. That's a large point I was making in my post. That WoD -> Legion and later BfA -> Shadowlands had a large emphasis on revisiting old lore, connecting to past stories and characters, and so on. You are also correct in saying Shadowlands was an "end of an era"-expansion, which is something I mentioned in my post. Danuser clearly said 9.2 closed one book and opened another, or something to that degree. That's what I'm arguing. Legion (at least for now) closed the book on the Burning Legion, Shadowlands (at least for now) closed the book on Arthas, the Scourge and all that business, and 11.0 will (at least for now) close the book on the Old Gods, Elementals, etc,

You are absolutely right in saying DF is the start of something new. It is! Because Shadowlands was the end of something else! Notice the sharp constrast between Legion/BfA and then Shadowlands/Dragonflight. The reason for that is precisely because they are all part of their own trilogies (one might say of "books").

Note that I'm not suggesting 11.0 has to go all-in on elementals, nor am I saying that if they were to do so, we'll never see the elementals again. Demons are still around after Legion. The undead are still around after Shadowlands. We're not deleting those cosmic forces from the universe, merely concluding large stories focusing on them, going back all the way to Warcraft 3. New stories will open up in the future. We will meet characters like Illidan again at some point.

As far as I'm concerned, 11.0 likely involves Old Gods and/or the Void in a more primal form in some way, the elements and/or the Elementals in some form, and characters like Thrall, the Dragon Aspects, etc. Likely, some Old God or other notable character representing the Void will also be present. (Queen Azshara? Xal'atath? Who knows.) I also believe a World Revamp is likely. With the end of 11.0, I do believe we'll be seeing less of the above for a while. That's it.

Then when 12.0 comes around, I think it's plausible, but not for certain, that we'll have a very jolly and relaxed expansion where we follow the Pirate Armada and look for Avaloren or something to that degree.

The book is already closed on the Old Gods and Elementals. That is what I am saying. Shadowlands isn't part of DF's trilogy. There aren't any trilogies to begin with. WoD > Legion > BfA > Shadowlands is a cohesive four section story about the end of WC3 characters. You're making weird divisions here in an attempt to guess what comes next, but the actual division here is:

WC3 > Vanilla > BC > Wrath | | Cataclysm || MoP || WoD > Legion > BfA > Shadowlands | | Dragonflight

The reason why the theory (not "yours" per se, but the original CN pattern it's based on), is incorrect is because Dragonflight isn't a continuation of anything. Deathwing's story (and the Aspects) were firmly ended in Cata. This isn't a sequel, it's a spinoff. There's no Elementals to close the book on because the old Elementals already had their book closed in Cataclysm. The point of DF is establishing the very first entry in entirely new elemental book. It uses a revised elemental set of Earth, Fire, Storm (lightning) and Ice instead of Earth, Fire, Wind and Water, disconnected from traditional shamanism, with added spirit and decay as individual forces. It has a new set of four elemental big bads, the Incarnates, it has a new faction of elemental aligned mortals, the Primalists. It's not going to close out the narrative because this isn't the Dragon and Elemental narrative from Cata. This is Dragons 2.0, preparing for a new permanent status quo of dragons, and Elemental 2.0, preparing a new age of elemental antagonists.

Dragonflight isn't Cataclysm, it's WC3. Shadowlands was meant to firmly finish the previous large scale moving parts, so that Dragonflight could be a disconnected soft reboot, 11.0 isn't going to be dealing with threats from before Shadowlands, it's going to be building out the 2.0 era with more factions and moving parts for this new narrative progression. 12.0 probably won't be some disconnected break expansion, because we're sitting at the start of a disconnect that needs more building. So the next several expansions will be about expanding the dragonflight seeds, not an open and closed small narrative. The elemental forces introduced in DF probably aren't going to be shut down the way the Legion or Scourge were, they are going to be disseminated from a singular group on one island attempting a specific thing, to a world-spanning decentralized force around for years to come.

[George Lucas]

The way you framed it made it sound like they felt MoP was too much of a departure from the established warcraft-ness of TBC through Cata. You specifically said "they wanted to try something different (anime, kung fu panda, etc) but MoP was their attempt to get back to the core structure of exploration and war, not attempt something new.

I'm not really basing this on PR, it's evident in the in-game design. WoD wasn't attempting to capitalize on nostalgic fans, that would have been an alternate Lordaeron or something. To begin with "old WC3 fans" was far from a viable market group to appeal to at that stage in the game. I am 100% considering business in my thinking. The profit they were chasing are newer people who hadn't experienced WC3, with newer interests (player housing), expecting newer looking content (race visual updates). WoD was a bet on novelty, not a return to basics. MoP was the return to basics.


The book is already closed on the Old Gods and Elementals. That is what I am saying. Shadowlands isn't part of DF's trilogy. There aren't any trilogies to begin with. WoD > Legion > BfA > Shadowlands is a cohesive four section story about the end of WC3 characters. You're making weird divisions here in an attempt to guess what comes next, but the actual division here is:

WC3 > Vanilla > BC > Wrath | | Cataclysm || MoP || WoD > Legion > BfA > Shadowlands | | Dragonflight

The reason why the theory (not "yours" per se, but the original CN pattern it's based on), is incorrect is because Dragonflight isn't a continuation of anything. Deathwing's story (and the Aspects) were firmly ended in Cata. This isn't a sequel, it's a spinoff. There's no Elementals to close the book on because the old Elementals already had their book closed in Cataclysm. The point of DF is establishing the very first entry in entirely new elemental book. It uses a revised elemental set of Earth, Fire, Storm (lightning) and Ice instead of Earth, Fire, Wind and Water, disconnected from traditional shamanism, with added spirit and decay as individual forces. It has a new set of four elemental big bads, the Incarnates, it has a new faction of elemental aligned mortals, the Primalists. It's not going to close out the narrative because this isn't the Dragon and Elemental narrative from Cata. This is Dragons 2.0, preparing for a new permanent status quo of dragons, and Elemental 2.0, preparing a new age of elemental antagonists.

Dragonflight isn't Cataclysm, it's WC3. Shadowlands was meant to firmly finish the previous large scale moving parts, so that Dragonflight could be a disconnected soft reboot, 11.0 isn't going to be dealing with threats from before Shadowlands, it's going to be building out the 2.0 era with more factions and moving parts for this new narrative progression. 12.0 probably won't be some disconnected break expansion, because we're sitting at the start of a disconnect that needs more building. So the next several expansions will be about expanding the dragonflight seeds, not an open and closed small narrative. The elemental forces introduced in DF probably aren't going to be shut down the way the Legion or Scourge were, they are going to be disseminated from a singular group on one island attempting a specific thing, to a world-spanning decentralized force around for years to come.

How can you say that Battle for Azeroth is a direct continuation of Legion, while WoD isn't of MoP, when the whole Garrosh plot is pretty much set up from BC to Wrath to Cata to MoP to WoD.

There are certain themes that overlap in Shadowlands and Wrath of the Lich King, Cataclysm and Dragonflight, Burning Crusade and Legion. That's it. There is no division. Just themes and fatigue of certain themes, that Blizzard sometimes picks up on early and sometimes they don't.

Dragonflight heavily borrows from Cataclysm. Shadowlands finishing any chapter of WoW is just marketing nonsense. 11.0 will most likely rehash most of it's themes from previous expansions, with a spin depending on what was popular 1 year ago in pop culture

Old gods will reappear, elemental lords will reappear, whenever Blizzard employees are pressured into inserting more nostalgia, like Onyxia or the Defias in the Human heritage questline. It doesn't need to make sense, it just have to check certain boxes some out of touch managers decide on.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I don't know enough about the guy but he really lacks the energy and self assurance on stage to do a good job at entertaining the audience for the release of a new game.

I don't think that would work with his anxiety tbh.

It's a shame that Metzen's health demands he withdraw from his old habits. I'll miss his enthusiastic disposition, but the man's well-being takes precedence.

Then again, his panic attacks were some time ago and seemed very circumstantial. Are we certain that his anxiety hasn't subsided since then?

[Hitei]

How can you say that Battle for Azeroth is a direct continuation of Legion, while WoD isn't of MoP, when the whole Garrosh plot is pretty much set up from BC to Wrath to Cata to MoP to WoD.

There are certain themes that overlap in Shadowlands and Wrath of the Lich King, Cataclysm and Dragonflight, Burning Crusade and Legion. That's it. There is no division. Just themes and fatigue of certain themes, that Blizzard sometimes picks up on early and sometimes they don't.

Mop is largely about MoP. The entire front half is about Pandaria, the back half is about Garrosh.

WoD distinctly does not follow from MoP beyond the most basic of triggers. MoP wasn't about timelines, it wasn't about Draenor, it wasn't even really about Orcs, just Garrosh specifically. None of the pandaren you get to know help out in WoD, or even Wrathion, or even most of the rank and file Alliance/Horde, WoD isn't really about Garrosh, he's the trigger, yes, but that's all. He starts the expansion and then leaves to go wait in Nagrand until he dies in a questline. WoD is about it's own storyline, the Draenei, the Orcs, the Ogres, the elemental forces of that world, the Legion's influence on the Orcs. It's not a continuation of MoP's storyline, it's a fairly self-contained storyline that is setting up the Legion.

Gul'dan is not Garrosh. He is a major player, he is there all the way until the third act, his legion gambit from WoD rolls directly into the Legion one. The characters who are with you are characters WoD built up rapport for, Khadgar, Cordana who turns traitor, Gul'dan. Legion then does the same thing, during the course of its story it sets up the basis for BfA, you see Genn brought to the forefront against Sylvanas, Varian is lost leaving Anduin as the unsure leader, it even lays the earliest suggestions of the Jailer and pantheon of Death.

The connection between MoP and Wod is just sort of tacked on at the end, and the stories themselves are largely separate with separate casts. The story from WoD to Shadowlands is more of a continuous narrative.

Dragonflight heavily borrows from Cataclysm. Shadowlands finishing any chapter of WoW is just marketing nonsense. 11.0 will most likely rehash most of it's themes from previous expansions, with a spin depending on what was popular 1 year ago in pop culture

Old gods will reappear, elemental lords will reappear, whenever Blizzard employees are pressured into inserting more nostalgia, like Onyxia or the Defias in the Human heritage questline. It doesn't need to make sense, it just have to check certain boxes some out of touch managers decide on.

It's not marketing nonsense at all. Did you just not pay attention to storylines? It put an end to Arthas permanently, it put an end to Sylvanas' arc as a leader in any capacity, it removed Anduin from the line. It finished off the remnants of the Horde vs Alliance conflict, it put an end to the Scourge and Lich King as a concept.

Dragonflight has similar thematics to Cataclysm, it also isn't very similar beyond that.

Old Gods are all dead. The only one surviving in any capacity is Xal'atath, who isn't in the form of an Old God. The Elemental Lords haven't been relevant in 10 years and were completely replaced as a notable power in this expansion. You're too busy poorly attempting to leverage this conversation into a completely unrelated argument about why you don't like Blizzard for me to bother reexplaining how DF is establishing new moving parts.

[Worldshaper]

The way you framed it made it sound like they felt MoP was too much of a departure from the established warcraft-ness of TBC through Cata. You specifically said "they wanted to try something different (anime, kung fu panda, etc) but MoP was their attempt to get back to the core structure of exploration and war, not attempt something new.

I'm not really basing this on PR, it's evident in the in-game design. WoD wasn't attempting to capitalize on nostalgic fans, that would have been an alternate Lordaeron or something. To begin with "old WC3 fans" was far from a viable market group to appeal to at that stage in the game. I am 100% considering business in my thinking. The profit they were chasing are newer people who hadn't experienced WC3, with newer interests (player housing), expecting newer looking content (race visual updates). WoD was a bet on novelty, not a return to basics. MoP was the return to basics.


The book is already closed on the Old Gods and Elementals. That is what I am saying. Shadowlands isn't part of DF's trilogy. There aren't any trilogies to begin with. WoD > Legion > BfA > Shadowlands is a cohesive four section story about the end of WC3 characters. You're making weird divisions here in an attempt to guess what comes next, but the actual division here is:

WC3 > Vanilla > BC > Wrath | | Cataclysm || MoP || WoD > Legion > BfA > Shadowlands | | Dragonflight

The reason why the theory (not "yours" per se, but the original CN pattern it's based on), is incorrect is because Dragonflight isn't a continuation of anything. Deathwing's story (and the Aspects) were firmly ended in Cata. This isn't a sequel, it's a spinoff. There's no Elementals to close the book on because the old Elementals already had their book closed in Cataclysm. The point of DF is establishing the very first entry in entirely new elemental book. It uses a revised elemental set of Earth, Fire, Storm (lightning) and Ice instead of Earth, Fire, Wind and Water, disconnected from traditional shamanism, with added spirit and decay as individual forces. It has a new set of four elemental big bads, the Incarnates, it has a new faction of elemental aligned mortals, the Primalists. It's not going to close out the narrative because this isn't the Dragon and Elemental narrative from Cata. This is Dragons 2.0, preparing for a new permanent status quo of dragons, and Elemental 2.0, preparing a new age of elemental antagonists.

Dragonflight isn't Cataclysm, it's WC3. Shadowlands was meant to firmly finish the previous large scale moving parts, so that Dragonflight could be a disconnected soft reboot, 11.0 isn't going to be dealing with threats from before Shadowlands, it's going to be building out the 2.0 era with more factions and moving parts for this new narrative progression. 12.0 probably won't be some disconnected break expansion, because we're sitting at the start of a disconnect that needs more building. So the next several expansions will be about expanding the dragonflight seeds, not an open and closed small narrative. The elemental forces introduced in DF probably aren't going to be shut down the way the Legion or Scourge were, they are going to be disseminated from a singular group on one island attempting a specific thing, to a world-spanning decentralized force around for years to come.

The bit about Kung Fu Panda, Anime, etc. was just part of my argument, and one of the several plausible reasons why they gave MoP a shot.

I also think it's a bit strange to suggest that WoD isn't an attempt to lure people back with old lore. The entire pitch was basically about "return to the good old days... but with a fresh twist". They heavily emphasised the old orcish clan leaders, old fan favourite zones like Nagrand, characters like Grom Hellscream, etc. Alternate Lordaeron would also have been a good bet, but they went with the orcish side of things this time around.

I didn't say Shadowlands is part of Dragonflight's trilogy, either?
Again, these are are the trilogies:

TBC, WoD, Legion
WotLK, BfA, Shadowlands
Cata, DF, 11.0

Let me demonstrate even further why this is the case, since it doesn't seem to be apparent to others where clear red threads are woven throughout several of these expansions, binding them together.

Test 1

Which WoW expansion heavily features Medivh or Khadgar, Illidan Stormrage, Gul'dan, Maiev and her Wardens, Turalyon and Alleria and their son Arator, Kil'jaeden, Archimonde, Velen, Dread Lords, lots of Naaru, The Burning Legion, Orc and Draenei history, Elven history, lots of Fel magic, magical portals which take us to worlds in the Twisting Nether which the Burning Legion has destroyed, and so on?

The correct answer is: 3! The description fits TBC, WoD, and Legion just as much!

Let's describe the story of the Fel/Disorder trilogy, in rough terms. The heroes of Azeroth venture through the Dark Portal to Outland, the remnants of the world Draenor. We travel through the shattered wastelands long since overrun by the Burning Legion, and aid heroes like Khadgar and Velen in bringing justice to this forsaken place. We pursue Illidan Stormrage atop the Black Temple, and ultimately topple the fallen eredar Kil'jaeden and Archimonde. (That's three "Betrayers" in a single expansion, heh!)

Some years later, a strange twist of fate (in the form of a sneaky Bronze dragon and his orcish friend) re-open the way to Draenor. Only, this time it's inside an alternate timeline, and Draenor hasn't fallen yet. Alongside more or less the same cast, we get to see this world from a different perspective. We even meet alternate Velen. In a sense, we have a chance to change things before they go bad. Beautiful Dranei temples and homely Orcish huts. We do win the day, the Orcs and the Draenei are liberated, and Archimonde falls at our feet (again). But Gul'dan from this timeline manages to escape.

Gul'dan opens the Tomb of Sargeras and calls the Legion to Azeroth. More or less the same cast continues to fight the Burning Legion, only this time to save their own world. We again travel across the Nether, this time to Mac'Aree, Draenei homeworld which fell to the Legion ages ago. Turalyon and Alleria are found. We manage to defeat Kil'jaden and Sargeras in the end. The fallen Titan is now imprisoned by the other Titans and Illidan. One "book" of WoW is closed.

Test 2

Which WoW expansion heavily features Arthas and the Menethil family, Bolvar Fordragon, the Lich King, Jaina Proudmoore, Uther the Lightbringer, Kel'thuzad, Sylvanas Windrunner, locations tied to Death, stories of loss and death, vengeance, mass loss of life and harvesting of souls, the Forsaken and the Undercity, strange necromantic magic and death cults, etc?

The correct answer is: 3! The description fits WotLK, BfA, and Shadowlands just as much!

Let's describe the story of the Death/Necromantic trilogy, in rough terms. The world seeks to heal from the scars left by the Lich King and his Scourge. As once more, the lord of the damned stirs in Northrend, the heroes of the Light sets out seeking justice, vengance, and closure. Jaina uncovers the secrets of the frozen norths and attempts to prevent a fourth war. We eventually break the chains and topple the king. Sylvanas, distraught at no longer having her guiding purpose and hatred for Arthas, throws herself from Icecrown. In this moment, she sees a vision of the Maw and meets the Jailer, with whom she struck a deal for power and longevity.

Once Sylvanas had been made Warchief of the Horde by the Jailer's influence, she brought an army to burn Teldrassil (thus sending thousands of souls into the Maw) and launch a war, with the Battle for the Undercity following thereafter. Her bloody campaign took the Horde and Alliance across the seas, where they came into contact with old friends and enemies alike. Both factions venture through lands where the shadow of death looms. Families missing their lost ones. Death cultists practicing secret rituals. Drust magic spilling into the realm of the living, and Loa of death playing tricks on the mortals. Entire villages murdered, mobs hanging people from the noose, and ritualistic slaughtering of innocents. Jaina finds some closure for losing so many loved ones, and Calia finds a new path in undeath. While a rogue Old God (N'Zoth) provides ample opportunity for Sylvanas to continue her rampage, funnelling even more souls into the Maw.

Ultimately, the Horde casts Sylvanas out as Varok Saurfang's heroic sacrifice reveals her true allegiance and newfound powers. Her lackeys soon begin kidnapping important leaders on Azeroth, including Anduin Wrynn, and imprison them within the Shadowlands. She herself challenges the Lich King atop Icecrown Citadel, and by ripping his crown opens away into the realm of the dead. What follows is trash, but let's just say some stuff happens and eventually the Jailer is defeated, and Death's chains which have fettered so many for so long - to vengeance, to mourning, to life, or to death - are broken. One "book" of WoW is closed.

Test 3

Which WoW expansion heavily features Deathwing/Neltharion, Dragons and the Aspects, the elements, Elementals and their Lords or leaders, large cults, world revamps and/or just changes to the world and its climate, Thrall, the looming threat of the Void and their Hour of Twilight, etc?

The correct answer is: 2 (soon to be 3)! The description fits Cataclysm, and Dragonflight (soon 11.0) just as much!

Let's describe the story of the Void/Shadow trilogy, in rough terms. The long history of the dragons go back almost to the beginning of Azeroth, and has its fundament in the elements. Back in a time when Old Gods and Titans vied for dominance, and Tyr empowered the Dragon Aspects to protect Azeroth against the ultimate peril: The Hour of Twilight. In Cataclysm, Deathwing, former Earth-warder and Aspect of the Black flight, now a corrupted pawn of the Old Gods, returns to wreak havoc across the world. Strange cultists arise, lead by thugs like Cho'gall who would stop at nothing to bring back their masters to power. The elements are in turmoil as the world trembles, and the elemental planes become accessible to mortals. Sweeping changes happen to the lands and seas of Azeroth, and new regions become available. Ultimately, heroes like Thrall who are attuned to the elements aid the Dragons in putting Deathwing to rest, and restoring the balance. As a result of this, the Dragon Aspects lose their power.

Years later, the Dragons are called home to the Dragon Isles as a beacon is lit atop Tyrhold. The elements awaken, and evil forces once again twist and turn beneath the earth, locked in ancient prisons. We venture with our draconic allies and explore the history of the isles. We fight the cultists who serve their Primal Incarnate masters, those who struck a similar pact as Deathwing once did. For what end, we do not yet know. We also venture into the laboratories of Neltharion and learn about the origins of the Dracthyr, and ultimately help the Aspects regain their power for what's to come. Even Tyr, who once empowered them to carry out their sacred charge, returns. It remains to be seen how this story ends, but chances are it doesn't end well. What happens if Iridikron wins?

11.0 is still a mystery to us, but it seems plausible that it continues this story and further evolves Azeroth. Old Gods, cultists, Elementals, Dragons, and much more. Thrall might return and wage one final, mighty battle in the Hour of Twilight. One "book" of WoW is closed.

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Old Gods are all dead. The only one surviving in any capacity is Xal'atath, who isn't in the form of an Old God. The Elemental Lords haven't been relevant in 10 years and were completely replaced as a notable power in this expansion. You're too busy poorly attempting to leverage this conversation into a completely unrelated argument about why you don't like Blizzard for me to bother reexplaining how DF is establishing new moving parts.

Is that why N'Zoth for reasons unknown ensured we emptied a blade which can store the essence of Old Gods, and stabbed him with it right at the moment of his defeat? Is that why he said only he could save us from what's to come?

Old Gods' physical forms may be in various stages of... annihilation. :-) But they're definitelt not gone for good.

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It's a shame that Metzen's health demands he withdraw from his old habits. I'll miss his enthusiastic disposition, but the man's well-being takes precedence.

Then again, his panic attacks were some time ago and seemed very circumstantial. Are we certain that his anxiety hasn't subsided since then?

From the interviews Scott Johnson conducted with him, he does sound a lot happier and healthier these days.

Remains to be seen if he ever wishes to stand on a BlizzCon stage again, but the timing of his return to Blizzard sure is interesting.

[Hitei]

Test 1

Which WoW expansion heavily features Medivh or Khadgar, Illidan Stormrage, Gul'dan, Maiev and her Wardens, Turalyon and Alleria and their son Arator, Kil'jaeden, Archimonde, Velen, Dread Lords, lots of Naaru, The Burning Legion, Orc and Draenei history, Elven history, lots of Fel magic, magical portals which take us to worlds in the Twisting Nether which the Burning Legion has destroyed, and so on?

Test 2

Which WoW expansion heavily features Arthas and the Menethil family, Bolvar Fordragon, the Lich King, Jaina Proudmoore, Uther the Lightbringer, Kel'thuzad, Sylvanas Windrunner, locations tied to Death, stories of loss and death, vengeance, mass loss of life and harvesting of souls, the Forsaken and the Undercity, strange necromantic magic and death cults, etc?

Test 3

Which WoW expansion heavily features Deathwing/Neltharion, Dragons and the Aspects, the elements, Elementals and their Lords or leaders, large cults, world revamps and/or just changes to the world and its climate, Thrall, the looming threat of the Void and their Hour of Twilight, etc?

That you have to name 20 different things, none of which actually appear in all of the expansions, include "either or" options like "Maiev or literally any warden" or "any member of the menethil family appears", and use things as tennuous as "there are portals to places" should be a red flag to you.

You know what also fits 2? Legion. It's the expansion that reintroduces Calia, it features Bolvar and the Lich King, Uther, it features Sylvanas in a forefront position, it has multiple ties to death including visiting the afterlife and dealing with a major power of death, it has stories of loss and death, vengeance, mass loss of life, harvesting of souls, the Forsaken, strange necromantic magic and death cults.

Do you know what also fits 3? BfA. It involves Neltharion, Dragons and the Aspects in both Highmountain and in researching the Heart Forge, it involves elements and elementals, large cults, changes to the world and its climate, Thrall, the looming threat of the Void and its hour of twilight, etc.

Because really these patterns mean nothing at all and picking expansions that vaguely line up is just arbitrary pattern creation. Which is why you're having to do shit like ignore half of Sylvanas' entire story because the actual death/necromancy plot progression, which is WC3 > Vanilla > Wrath > Cata > Legion > BfA > Shadowlands, doesn't fit the "pattern" of these made up trilogies, despite Legion and Cata being much, much more significant parts of the Sylvanas and ultimately Jailer narrative than Wrath was.

[Chickat]

Green jesus on Blizzcon 2023 art, we will see more of thrall in coming patches besides the orc heritage armor? or maybe in new expansion.

Call back to thrall for WoW keyart screams world revamp to me personally. What other reason would he be there? Maybe if we go back to Draenor or something but that seems unlikely.

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I think it lends credence to either World Revamp or Lightbound invasion. Though I imagine Velen would also star alongside Thrall as the main Alliance aligned character to oppose Yrel.

Avaloren and South Seas definitely lose some points being next if this art is any indication.

I think its also safe to assume that a light invasion storyline would revamp at least small sections of the world too. Maybe the top half of the Eastern Kingdoms.

[Eeram]

Green jesus on Blizzcon 2023 art, we will see more of thrall in coming patches besides the orc heritage armor? or maybe in new expansion.

Not sure if this has been said befor but 3 out of the 5 characters have some form of Exploration built into there character. Winston with space. Elise Starseeker is literally in the League of Explorers an Thrall Exploring and trying to find the Orcs/Horde there Home befor Org was built. LMAO i know its a strech but i dont know much about lilith or the gnome.

[Skytotem]

Not sure if this has been said befor but 3 out of the 5 characters have some form of Exploration built into there character. Winston with space. Elise Starseeker is literally in the League of Explorers an Thrall Exploring and trying to find the Orcs/Horde there Home befor Org was built. LMAO i know its a strech but i dont know much about lilith or the gnome.

Gnome is just from the bad mobile game.

Lilith... I guess founded sanctuary.

[Worldshaper]

That you have to name 20 different things, none of which actually appear in all of the expansions, include "either or" options like "Maiev or literally any warden" or "any member of the menethil family appears", and use things as tennuous as "there are portals to places" should be a red flag to you.

You know what also fits 2? Legion. It's the expansion that reintroduces Calia, it features Bolvar and the Lich King, Uther, it features Sylvanas in a forefront position, it has multiple ties to death including visiting the afterlife and dealing with a major power of death, it has stories of loss and death, vengeance, mass loss of life, harvesting of souls, the Forsaken, strange necromantic magic and death cults.

Do you know what also fits 3? BfA. It involves Neltharion, Dragons and the Aspects in both Highmountain and in researching the Heart Forge, it involves elements and elementals, large cults, changes to the world and its climate, Thrall, the looming threat of the Void and its hour of twilight, etc.

Because really these patterns mean nothing at all and picking expansions that vaguely line up is just arbitrary pattern creation. Which is why you're having to do shit like ignore half of Sylvanas' entire story because the actual death/necromancy plot progression, which is WC3 > Vanilla > Wrath > Cata > Legion > BfA > Shadowlands, doesn't fit the "pattern" of these made up trilogies, despite Legion and Cata being much, much more significant parts of the Sylvanas and ultimately Jailer narrative than Wrath was.

90% of the things I mentioned are either heavily featured, or indirectly very relevant, in each of the expansions I listed them under. One or two things may be misplaced but it still gets the general idea across. It's very hard to tell in the first example if I meant WoD or Legion. But it's super easy to tell whether I meant Legion or Shadowlands for example.

There is a very, very clear story continuation from Wod to Legion, from BfA to Shadowlands, and likely from Dragonflight to 11.0. The first chapters of each trilogy are a bit more standalone because they were all written at the time to have a clear beginning, middle and end. But the overarching themes and stories are still very much present.

Similarly, it is very easy to spot when each trilogy ends. Legion to BfA has a very distinct change of theme, tone, character roster, setting, etc. Same thing with Shadowlands to Dragonflight.

Edit:

I also feel like it's very important to point one thing out. Just because there appears to be these "trilogies" where different themes and stories are explored in a more focused way, that doesn't mean that the expansions only feature these specific themes.

For example, Old Gods are present in some way in basically every expansion. But in the current trilogy (Void), I would argue the story more clearly hones in on their ultimate goal of the Hour of Twilight. Not just by Blizzard throwing Old Gods in our faces. But in the way their presence is indirectly felt. For example, in the story of Tyr, and why he created the Aspects. In the story of the Elemental Lords, and why the Protodragons started bickering, and how they betrayed their kin for power, etc.

Similarly, there are obviously undead creatures in most expansions. But there's a more focused story about Death to be found in that trilogy, whereas for the other expansions death is just one part of the rich tapestry that makes up WoW.

Titan and Burning Legion lore is also present in virtually every expansion. But in the Disorder/Fel trilogy, we get a really cohesive narrative that involves us exploring the impact of the Legion, and ultimately defeating it.

[Chickat]

I know that's why I said two expansions would be another way to make it work.



I don't think more patches would make Shadowlands much better because the expansion was unpopular in nearly every aspect: lore, theme, and gameplay. Meanwhile, I think the only weak part of Dragonflight is the lore, since both the gameplay and themes are pretty good.

I'm not against new characters, but they need build-up. We just meet the Incarnates or the Death Pantheon and proceed to kill them, that's neither fulfilling nor exciting.

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A World Revamp would allow many story plots to happen on a minor scale in multiple regions, as we saw back in Vanilla, so I dearly hope Blizzard doesn't follow the Cataclysm pattern where everything is about "one threat".

I dont think DF lore is bad. Its fine. Nothing groundbreaking, but its definitely not as bad as BFA or Shadowlands.

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Do we have anything encrypted that could be a Blizzcon reward at this point? Though obviously digital tickets will not be available for a while longer.

That would probably pop up in 10.1.7 or 10.2 datamining.

[Luck4]

I dont think DF lore is bad. Its fine. Nothing groundbreaking, but its definitely not as bad as BFA or Shadowlands.

I agree, both BFA and SL are beyond terrible IMO, the only thing I liked in BFA was Jaina's story in 8.0, and nothing in SL.

But I used "weak" to describe DF lore because the Incarnates/Primalists plot is shallow, we never heard about them, nor they were ever hinted before.

Personally, I really don't care if any of the Incarnates will be redeemed or not, if they're all getting killed, or if their story will be finished in a quest or raid. I'm more interested in speculating what the next expansion is about than how DF will conclude, something that didn't feel back in Legion/Wrath/Cataclysm/Pandaria.

These are the best memories I have from these expansions, I couldn't care less about the next expansion back when those patches were around the corner:



I know many people will criticize me, but I was truly hyped for 4.3:

[Eeram]

Gnome is just from the bad mobile game.

Lilith... I guess founded sanctuary.

So what we think Thrall leads us to Alvaloran? or Elemental Expansion?

[Revamp Man]

So what we think Thrall leads us to Alvaloran? or Elemental Expansion?

I mean he was the world shaman at one point
The elements connection to him weakening might not be because he cheated in WoD but because there's something wrong and the incarnates could just be making it worse

Iridikron could have this new demon soul-esque item to drain the power from all of the lords

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We need 10.2 to either have the frost incarnate or iridikron

I'm going through old void whispers to see if there's any hints because they normally are decent hints

[Hyde]

Remember when a lot of people were against the return of talent trees when it was suggested before DFL?

I wouldn't really take people who really for the removal of talent trees seriously. Their opinions and goalposts change based on Blizz's changes. Somehow, magically they were for it when previously they were against it.

[Nymrohd]

It could also be that Thrall is just important in 10.3

BTW one thing I haven't seen discussed
Why is Fyrakk working with Igira? What is she crafting for him? In the suffusion camps the focus clearly is shaping metal to deliver to Igira and Fyrakk. Every NPC tells us so in different ways. So they are making something. Either Igira is making spears to kill the Aspects or she is making Fyrakk plating so he can survive the shadowflame just like Deathwing did. While the second option makes more sense to me, we did just get that fight in Aberrus with Kazzara so it seems unlikely. Maybe something else entirely?
I really expect that two boss raid to happen.

[KayRule]

next expansion will be Undermine with Void theme