The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Fahrad Wagner]

I can't speak for others, but I would prefer for Murozond to happen because it would allow a villain victory without strings attached, ensure the regular appearance of the Infinite Dragonflight going forward, and create a major paradigm shift that wouldn't upend the entire setting for the worse like the ending of BfA did while still having tangible and obvious effects.

Same, I want m'boy to go mad

[AOL Instant Messenger]

It would actually be a paradox if he became Murozond that way, as it would have meant he was already Murozond at points in time when he acted as Nozdormu still. Thus any other outcome was impossible from the start, Deios had to fail. Guy probably had a god complex anyway, with a name like that.

Remember, a paradox is something that cannot ever actually happen. If a line of logic leads to a paradox, it means the logic is wrong.

But we're not dealing with sensible chronology here. What we're talking about is a parachronological reality where time can be retroactively altered.

I like to think that if Murozond came into being, both the reality in which Nozdormu was always Murozond and the one we previously had would have occurred simultaneously, even the parts which are mutually-contradictory. Chronological and logical incompatibility are not strictly contradictory, especially when you aren't dealing with axioms or conceptual logic, but mutable and variable events in a concrete flow of time.

[Ersula]

It would actually be a paradox if he became Murozond that way, as it would have meant he was already Murozond at points in time when he acted as Nozdormu still. Thus any other outcome was impossible from the start, Deios had to fail. Guy probably had a god complex anyway, with a name like that.

You understand Bronze Dragons can travel in time, yes? He could only be Murozond for just a short weekend & still travel to all those places we see in the Caverns of Time.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Crazy silly theory, what if Murozond happens, but Murozond was never Nozdormu to start with. He is simply another character that took that name, as it was already establish, as a representation of what the Infinites think that Nozdormu should have been.

Chromie is willing to sacrifice everything to save Nozdormu. Maybe she becomes Murozond herself to save him.

I already thought of that but I don't think Blizz is willing to do that.

[Skildar]

I don't know. I think the point of that was that Malfurion was never in any danger of serious harm. Note how all Xavius ever does to those taunts is complain and whine; he really does not have the ability to do anything more to Malfurion than stop him from leaving. So all Malfurion has to do is wait until we can be bothered to saunter over and punch Xavius' shadow-clone face.
The only reason Malfurion does not resolve the whole matter himself after that is because he cannot enter the place Xavius real form is. Xavius was never a major threat to him and Tyrande was way overreacting.

That basically boils down to poor narration. The guy that managed to corrupt the tear of Elune and then use it to corrupt Ysera is harmless to Malfurion even when getting him into his own Realm? This whole sequence makes no sense and is just there to justify a dungeon in which they didn't know what to do narratively except put saving Malfurion as a stake.

The whole point I was trying to convey is just that narration has not been good in wow for a long time and putting the blame on players when it's clearly the game that fails is not the way to go to give people a bit of hope for better narratives.

P.S.: I'm always making a real distinction between lore and narration because for wow case it is very important. The stories of Warcraft are good and especially the stories of the places. Shadowlands have great stories, but the narration is abysmal and in wow it often is the case. Dragonflight might be the exception where there is very little lore to explore.

[Alanar]

I can't speak for others, but I would prefer for Murozond to happen because it would allow a villain victory without strings attached, ensure the regular appearance of the Infinite Dragonflight going forward, and create a major paradigm shift that wouldn't upend the entire setting for the worse like the ending of BfA did while still having tangible and obvious effects.

Idk after looking at it again, I just dont see the point tho. We have already seen what will happen. Maybe he will, maybe he wont, it doesnt really matter in the end.

I hope we see Nozdormu moving forward with the Bronze and not Chromie.

[huth]

You understand Bronze Dragons can travel in time, yes? He could only be Murozond for just a short weekend & still travel to all those places we see in the Caverns of Time.

No, he can't, because we kill him.

That basically boils down to poor narration. The guy that managed to corrupt the tear of Elune and then use it to corrupt Ysera is harmless to Malfurion even when getting him into his own Realm? This whole sequence makes no sense and is just there to justify a dungeon in which they didn't know what to do narratively except put saving Malfurion as a stake.

I never said it isn't stupid. But it's in line with the usual saturday morning cartoon shenanigans in WoW.

[Skildar]

But it's in line with the usual saturday morning cartoon shenanigans in WoW.

True words

[Cheezits]

I can see Chromie being Murozond, one thing that makes me think that may be likely is the said that that Morchie may appear again.

She may just be a stooge, but what if she's the ONLY Chromie we can work with?

Maybe it's intentional on the PTR but during the dungeon gameplay you can't really see what Deios is doing "to ensure Murozond". He kind of just shows up at Galakrond's corpse and you fight him.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

No, he can't, because we kill him.

Again, I don't think typical rules of chronology apply here. The Bronze Dragonflight seem to be somewhat parachronological in nature, so it's possible that the retroactive transformation of Nozdormu would just result in the timeline rearranging itself after the fact or even just cause the events of both timelines to happen at once.

- - - Updated - - -

I never said it isn't stupid. But it's in line with the usual saturday morning cartoon shenanigans in WoW.

Sure thing

This is wholly irrelevant to the point that was being made and the discussion at hand, anyway. Though my example was highly subjective at best, I was trying to illustrate different sides of Darkarath's point in acknowledgement that his concern had precedent. Further discussion about that topic is meaningless.

[Cheezits]

Idk after looking at it again, I just dont see the point tho. We have already seen what will happen. Maybe he will, maybe he wont, it doesnt really matter in the end.

I hope we see Nozdormu moving forward with the Bronze and not Chromie.

There isn't enough build up with Chromie this expansion, she's basically a side character compared to Noz. Even Soridormu, Nozdormu's wife, gets sweeping characterization.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

There isn't enough build up with Chromie this expansion, she's basically a side character compared to Noz. Even Soridormu, Nozdormu's wife, gets sweeping characterization.

Au contraire, I think Chromie has had plenty of build-up and characterization thus far; it's just that said characterization is exceedingly cutesy, and I would personally detest the idea of Chromie being placed in a position to potentially export said cutesiness to places where it's unwanted.

[Ersula]

No, he can't, because we kill him.

The Murazond we see in End Time... that is his END point. Not his START POINT. Nozdormu whole's anxiety this expansion is he is fearing that the point where he turns into Murazond is coming soon. That would be Murazond's START POINT. Because he can travel in time he could do any number of things in any order he wanted before the events of the End Time Dungeon.

From his perspective, it would be:

Nozdormu becomes Murazond -> Murzond creates the Infinite Dragonflight -> The Infinite attack various points in the timeline -> Murazond is killed in End Time

[Aeluron Lightsong]

There isn't enough build up with Chromie this expansion, she's basically a side character compared to Noz. Even Soridormu, Nozdormu's wife, gets sweeping characterization.

Soridormu is far better then Chromie if those were the choices. Ideally Anachronos is best.

[Skildar]

This is wholly irrelevant to the point that was being made and the discussion at hand, anyway. Though my example was highly subjective at best, I was trying to illustrate different sides of Darkarath's point in acknowledgement that his concern had precedent. Further discussion about that topic is meaningless.

It's not even subjective, like I said earlier : you're putting the responsibility of the bad writing on a misinterpretation from the players in an example when it is not the case. When there are for sure examples to convey your point that are far more relevant in my opinion. The simplest I guess would be BfA introduction completely skipping the fact that Saurfang truly is the one starting the war hand in hand with Sylvanas. In the end it comes down to poor narration for different reasons, but I was a bit upset that you would attack some players that got a bit annoyed at the Tyrande-Malfurion legion moment when they are right to be.

[Revamp Man]

The Murazond we see in End Time... that is his END point. Not his START POINT. Nozdormu whole's anxiety this expansion is he is fearing that the point where he turns into Murazond is coming soon. That would be Murazond's START POINT. Because he can travel in time he could do any number of things in any order he wanted before the events of the End Time Dungeon.

From his perspective, it would be:

Nozdormu becomes Murazond -> Murzond creates the Infinite Dragonflight -> The Infinite attack various points in the timeline -> Murazond is killed in End Time

People just need to Google dr who river song

The first time we meet him is his last
The last time we meet him is his first

He can literally show up at any point in the future and it will all just be a part of the loop

[Sondrelk]

People just need to Google dr who river song

The first time we meet him is his last
The last time we meet him is his first

He can literally show up at any point in the future and it will all just be a part of the loop

Something you learn about life is that there is a decent chunk of the population that just doesn't get how non-linear time works in this context. Time travel is weird enough, so having beings like the Bronze and Infinite dragons capable of moving freely through time and experiencing it differently from everyone else is just too much to wrap their heads around.

[huth]

People just need to Google dr who river song

The first time we meet him is his last
The last time we meet him is his first

He can literally show up at any point in the future and it will all just be a part of the loop

The problem is that Ersula insinuated he would become Murozond and then go back. Which is rather hindered by his being dead.

[Chickat]

We have on 2 dragonflights left whose story is not over yet (murozond's plotline will end in 10.1.5): green and red. 10.2 will probably take care of both if we follow the hints.

The last major patch of dragonflight will have iridikron as final villain.

After that i expect something on the level of patch 9.2.5 where we will see the aftermath of the expansion.

Personally I think we are looking at 1 more major patch and 4 more minor patches.

10.1.7- mid september
10.2- late November
10.2.5- Early February
10.2.7- Early April
10.2.9- Early June all 3 raids in one patch with a small amount of new world content
11.0 prepatch- early November.
11.0 expansion- late November
11.0 raid launch- Somewhere around December 9th.

[huth]

Something you learn about life is that there is a decent chunk of the population that just doesn't get how non-linear time works in this context. Time travel is weird enough, so having beings like the Bronze and Infinite dragons capable of moving freely through time and experiencing it differently from everyone else is just too much to wrap their heads around.

It's not even non-linear time. Time is still linear, but time travelers experience it in anachronic order.

I think the biggest issue with this is that people usually overthink this far too much, thinking up unnecessarily complex ways of how things happen instead of realising that it isn't functionally much different than jumping to a different point in a youtube video.