The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Darkarath]

Dude, things are all right and looking promising, but come on.

Legion had the most content, the best content, and the best cadence by far. It's not even close.

It is the best expansion overall, I agree. Legion had 3 big patches, though. If DF would have received patches up to 10.3.7, it would have been the expansion with most content. Also the quality and quantity of the content is better, no question. In Legion, getting in a not numbered patch something like Siren Isle was unthinkable. But we players tend to forget soon and we always look back with nostalgia.

It was also one of the last expansions that felt like old-school WoW, before everything got so strange with Shadowlands' destruction of old lore, Dragonflight's mega zones and Dragonriding putting the final nail in the coffin of old landscape design, and TWW's rather outlandish underground theme and (thus far) completely wonky post-launch content (20th anniversary, island expedition redux Siren Isle and jazzy Undermine).

I really hope Metzen is able to bring the thunder with Midnight. Look, I hate sounding like some troglodyte but WoW needs its testosterone back (for lack of a better word). Its oomph.

Hard disagree on the effects of Dragonriding regarding the world. It has obviously changed world design but for the better, and IMO we can never go back to a world without Dragonriding. The Dragon Isles and Khaz Algar are amazing continents. I was very reluctant about underground zones, especially after Zaralek Caverns, but they have done an outstanding work.

While I agree with the destruction of the lore made by Shadowlands, I think that the main issue with DF was how badly the story was told, and the more than probable changes that the story suffered. I certainly do not need more "macho" moments, but I agree that it has been a while since we got a typical cool and cheesy WoW event, like Sargeras stabbing Azeroth.

TWW is doing a good job for now, but Blizzard has made so many poor decisions lore-wise that I find hard to believe that TWW's good start will keep going. Nevertheless, I remain hopeful.

[Jaggler]

Legion also profited from WoD being abandoned after one patch and that content going into Legion. That is just not feasable otherwise. It's not like Blizzard managed to magic out some new content. It was the result of one of the (if not the) worst content drought in the game.

Legion launched with basically most of it 7.1 content already finished.

I would say Dragonriding was a huge boon for landscape design, not a "nail in the coffin".
The Dragon Isles are one of the most beautiful places in the game.
"Old School" WoW Landscapes were very... flat. You had a few, geographically nonsensical mountain ranges to seperate zones.
You do you, if you enjoy that kind of thing, but thinking that old wow zone designs were somehow better is a wild take.

[Worldshaper]

"Not even close" in the sense that Kun-Lai is a boring, forgettable zone and the only real notable thing about Grizzly Hills was a music track, right?

That's not how they were perceived at the time, lol. You're looking at it from the POV of somebody who's seen those places a million times already, and these days have access to a bunch of new innovations that weren't in the game back then.

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It is the best expansion overall, I agree. Legion had 3 big patches, though. If DF would have received patches up to 10.3.7, it would have been the expansion with most content. Also the quality and quantity of the content is better, no question. In Legion, getting in a not numbered patch something like Siren Isle was unthinkable. But we players tend to forget soon and we always look back with nostalgia.



Hard disagree on the effects of Dragonriding regarding the world. It has obviously changed world design but for the better, and IMO we can never go back to a world without Dragonriding. The Dragon Isles and Khaz Algar are amazing continents. I was very reluctant about underground zones, especially after Zaralek Caverns, but they have done an outstanding work.

While I agree with the destruction of the lore made by Shadowlands, I think that the main issue with DF was how badly the story was told, and the more than probable changes that the story suffered. I certainly do not need more "macho" moments, but I agree that it has been a while since we got a typical cool and cheesy WoW event, like Sargeras stabbing Azeroth.

TWW is doing a good job for now, but Blizzard has made so many poor decisions lore-wise that I find hard to believe that TWW's good start will keep going. Nevertheless, I remain hopeful.

This is one of those issues I'm fine with having a polite disagreement over, and it's not a hill I'd die on or anything.

I really like both the Dragon Isles and Khaz Algar. I just think something was lost in terms of how you experience that horizon.

It was an incredible feeling to gradually ascend Kun-Lai Summit from the valleys below until you eventually climbed Mt Neverest in the snowstorm.

When you went though Highmountain the first time, it was truly epic to explore that little valley with all the rivers around the tauren city before you eventually descended into caves and made your way to the coast on the other side.

You just don't get those moments with the new direction. You can go anywhere immediately, and your POV is completely different.

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Legion also profited from WoD being abandoned after one patch and that content going into Legion. That is just not feasable otherwise. It's not like Blizzard managed to magic out some new content. It was the result of one of the (if not the) worst content drought in the game.

Legion launched with basically most of it 7.1 content already finished.

I would say Dragonriding was a huge boon for landscape design, not a "nail in the coffin".
The Dragon Isles are one of the most beautiful places in the game.
"Old School" WoW Landscapes were very... flat. You had a few, geographically nonsensical mountain ranges to seperate zones.
You do you, if you enjoy that kind of thing, but thinking that old wow zone designs were somehow better is a wild take.

The Dragon Isles are indeed beautiful (which, tbh should be expected since they are the newest "natural"/above ground zones in the game. Blizzard tools are better and hopefully design principles improve with time.

But they could be even better imo. If the Azure Span was a place I initially had to make my way through on horseback or on foot, Blizzard would have had to put a little bit more love into creating different vistas that leave you in awe.

Progressing from, say, a little boat you arrive with down by the water, welcomed by the Tuskarr, through inclining hills that are covered in trees, before you reach snowy peaks and frozen citadels of the blue flight.

Now it was just like... okay we'll dump you wherever on the map and let you go wherever, because you're able to anyway. The flow was really odd IMO.

You also lose so much of the subtle things. Imagine if the hobbits just flew around Middle-Earth on giant eagles all the time, occasionally landing to fight with Shelob or encounter Gollum. How exciting would that be?

[Lady Atia]

That's not how they were perceived at the time, lol. You're looking at it from the POV of somebody who's seen those places a million times already, and these days have access to a bunch of new innovations that weren't in the game back then.

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This is one of those issues I'm fine with having a polite disagreement over, and it's not a hill I'd die on or anything.

I really like both the Dragon Isles and Khaz Algar. I just think something was lost in terms of how you experience that horizon.

It was an incredible feeling to gradually ascend Kun-Lai Summit from the valleys below until you eventually climbed Mt Neverest in the snowstorm.

When you went though Highmountain the first time, it was truly epic to explore that little valley with all the rivers around the tauren city before you eventually descended into caves and made your way to the coast on the other side.

You just don't get those moments with the new direction. You can go anywhere immediately, and your POV is completely different.

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The Dragon Isles are indeed beautiful (which, tbh should be expected since they are the newest "natural"/above ground zones in the game. Blizzard tools are better and hopefully design principles improve with time.

But they could be even better imo. If the Azure Span was a place I initially had to make my way through on horseback or on foot, Blizzard would have had to put a little bit more love into creating different vistas that leave you in awe.

Progressing from, say, a little boat you arrive with down by the water, welcomed by the Tuskarr, through inclining hills that are covered in trees, before you reach snowy peaks and frozen citadels of the blue flight.

Now it was just like... okay we'll dump you wherever on the map and let you go wherever, because you're able to anyway. The flow was really odd IMO.

You also lose so much of the subtle things. Imagine if the hobbits just flew around Middle-Earth on giant eagles all the time, occasionally landing to fight with Shelob or encounter Gollum. How exciting would that be?

You last point, isn't that the problem of any "open world rpg's" of the last years? Think the newest Pokemon game or Diablo IV. A linear story thread that leads you linear through a world will always feel better than "here are 3 main quest lines you can do in any order lul".

[Hitei]

That's not how they were perceived at the time, lol. You're looking at it from the POV of somebody who's seen those places a million times already, and these days have access to a bunch of new innovations that weren't in the game back then.

No, even at the time I found Kun-Lai supremely underwhelming, brown blandness on a continent with much nicer and more immersive zones (that also had much more interesting storylines and questing). It was sort of just a much worse version of Townlong, which is already a pretty low tier zone compared to Jade Forest, Valley/Krasarang and Vale. Grizzly Hills (outside of the nyckelharpa) was pretty meh compared to Dragonblight, Storm Peaks, Icecrown and Zul'drak. I'd say the only thing keeping it even mid for Wrath was that half of Northrend's zones (Sholazar, Howling Fjord, Borean outside of Coldarra) were just real awful.

[Nymrohd]

Damn, I really enjoyed Kun Lai. From the Grummles, to Lei Shen being resurrected, the beach village attacked by the Zandalari and then the Shado pan, all was solidly told.

[Hitei]

Damn, I really enjoyed Kun Lai. From the Grummles, to Lei Shen being resurrected, the beach village attacked by the Zandalari and then the Shado pan, all was solidly told.

Townlong literally did Shado-Pan better though.

[Darkarath]

This is one of those issues I'm fine with having a polite disagreement over, and it's not a hill I'd die on or anything.

I really like both the Dragon Isles and Khaz Algar. I just think something was lost in terms of how you experience that horizon.

It was an incredible feeling to gradually ascend Kun-Lai Summit from the valleys below until you eventually climbed Mt Neverest in the snowstorm.

When you went though Highmountain the first time, it was truly epic to explore that little valley with all the rivers around the tauren city before you eventually descended into caves and made your way to the coast on the other side.

You just don't get those moments with the new direction. You can go anywhere immediately, and your POV is completely different.

I understand. Is just a matter of taste.

For example, while I think that MoP was a very good expansion, the zones and questing experience was pretty meh for me, with the exception of anything Mantid-related. I did not get that feel of gradually ascending at all. But I definitively got the feeling of going deeper and deeper with TWW. Entering Hallowfall with my flying mount the first time was one of the highlights of WoW ever. And I have a shitty PC. It has to be truly amazing with decent graphics.

But again, this is highly subjective. Music helps too. TWW's music has been an all-time high IMO. Especially the Isle of Dorn theme. I love that song and I usually do not pay much attention to music.

[Nymrohd]

Townlong literally did Shado-Pan better though.

The Kun Lai story made me care about the characters from the Townlong arc though

[Jaggler]

Story-wise Kun_Lai was engaging, but it has to be one of the blandest zones visually in WoW.

Like, i get the inspiration, but a vast amount of your time questing there you srag yourself through a brown plain, the short time you spend on the mountain/the beach just reinforce, how boring the pains are.
I get the inspiration, but man, was it a slog.

[Cheezits]

I do wonder WHY it is that TWW's music direction is so strong. While DF wasn't technically bad it felt very aimless and no themes really stood out to me whatsoever. SL had some great tracks but overall similar vibes from the community. Meanwhile it's pretty agreed-upon that TWW is incredibly good with its music, even in Undermine and the new tracks for Siren Isle.

So I wonder what exactly caused this shift. Did execs come down and say "new saga thing, go hard or else" or did they feel more inspired this time?

[alex wolf]

That's not how they were perceived at the time, lol. You're looking at it from the POV of somebody who's seen those places a million times already, and these days have access to a bunch of new innovations that weren't in the game back then.

- - - Updated - - -



This is one of those issues I'm fine with having a polite disagreement over, and it's not a hill I'd die on or anything.

I really like both the Dragon Isles and Khaz Algar. I just think something was lost in terms of how you experience that horizon.

It was an incredible feeling to gradually ascend Kun-Lai Summit from the valleys below until you eventually climbed Mt Neverest in the snowstorm.

When you went though Highmountain the first time, it was truly epic to explore that little valley with all the rivers around the tauren city before you eventually descended into caves and made your way to the coast on the other side.

You just don't get those moments with the new direction. You can go anywhere immediately, and your POV is completely different.

- - - Updated - - -



The Dragon Isles are indeed beautiful (which, tbh should be expected since they are the newest "natural"/above ground zones in the game. Blizzard tools are better and hopefully design principles improve with time.

But they could be even better imo. If the Azure Span was a place I initially had to make my way through on horseback or on foot, Blizzard would have had to put a little bit more love into creating different vistas that leave you in awe.

Progressing from, say, a little boat you arrive with down by the water, welcomed by the Tuskarr, through inclining hills that are covered in trees, before you reach snowy peaks and frozen citadels of the blue flight.

Now it was just like... okay we'll dump you wherever on the map and let you go wherever, because you're able to anyway. The flow was really odd IMO.

You also lose so much of the subtle things. Imagine if the hobbits just flew around Middle-Earth on giant eagles all the time, occasionally landing to fight with Shelob or encounter Gollum. How exciting would that be?

I do totally get what you mean, I could see some value in exploring around in a more guided way at first, I really enjoyed siren isle in a way I didn't really savour some of the other newer zones because of needing to navigate more manually

It does feel like a lose/lose situation however, especially with how zones now are clearly designed for you to be flying through all the time so even an attempt at something like "you need to finish the campaign on at least 1 character per warband to unlock flight" could get really awkward

I am interested in seeing how undermine plays out, I'm also interested to see if they do anything with those spidermines that would knock you (harmlessly) out of the air in future zone design, I personally wouldn't mind having more air hazards or large building complexes to interrupt the standard game play loop of open world stuff being flying from quest objective to quest objective avoiding as many things as humanly possible

[Jaggler]

I do wonder WHY it is that TWW's music direction is so strong. While DF wasn't technically bad it felt very aimless and no themes really stood out to me whatsoever. SL had some great tracks but overall similar vibes from the community. Meanwhile it's pretty agreed-upon that TWW is incredibly good with its music, even in Undermine and the new tracks for Siren Isle.

So I wonder what exactly caused this shift. Did execs come down and say "new saga thing, go hard or else" or did they feel more inspired this time?

I think part of it is theme in general. DF was very generic overall in terms of stakes, setting etc. You have majestic Dragons, magical woods, raw elemental power etc, so the accompanying music also tends to be more generic. It fits with the sort of "reset button" DF is. The music goes hard where it gets to be more unique like the Grizzly Hills remaster in Azure Span.

TWW is in general more unique. Underground mechanical facility, light worshipping half elves with a light/void/crystal underground sun, underground spider empire, goblin capital.
You can go more "out there" and still fit into the world

[milkmustache]

I do wonder WHY it is that TWW's music direction is so strong. While DF wasn't technically bad it felt very aimless and no themes really stood out to me whatsoever. SL had some great tracks but overall similar vibes from the community. Meanwhile it's pretty agreed-upon that TWW is incredibly good with its music, even in Undermine and the new tracks for Siren Isle.

So I wonder what exactly caused this shift. Did execs come down and say "new saga thing, go hard or else" or did they feel more inspired this time?

I think that DF was massively absent in identity. They had this whole "return home" arc, but that was about it. Everything else seemed to kind of exist in this state of sameness, the sum of its parts just being okay; the dragonflights themselves didn't really have much distinction between one another in my opinion. Personally, I was and still am massively disappointed at the representation of the dragonflights. I think they just could've been so much cooler. All of this sort of added together into a zone and expansion that on paper had great cadence, great quality of life updates, beautiful zones and decent class design, but in actuality was just.. okay.

TWW seems to be a lot more inspired. Even though there is still some OC LORE (I say that sarcastically, I really don't mind it here), everything on Khaz Algar feels natural to WoW and I think this caused the expansion's to come into focus a lot quicker. There's also the benefit of building on top of things that are already there. The Goblins have had serious building blocks for years, so it's nice to see Blizzard cashing in all those checks and really making a statement patch for them. Same can be said for the Nerubians and Earthen. The only real hat pull was the Arathi who they managed to absolutely knock it out of the park with, but Blizzard has always been good at writing devout humans.

[Lahis]

Townlong literally did Shado-Pan better though.

Yeah Kun-Lai isn't really a Shado-pan zone despite the monastery being there. The short questline you did with them is basically a prologue to Towlong Steppes.

[Hitei]

I do wonder WHY it is that TWW's music direction is so strong. While DF wasn't technically bad it felt very aimless and no themes really stood out to me whatsoever. SL had some great tracks but overall similar vibes from the community. Meanwhile it's pretty agreed-upon that TWW is incredibly good with its music, even in Undermine and the new tracks for Siren Isle.

So I wonder what exactly caused this shift. Did execs come down and say "new saga thing, go hard or else" or did they feel more inspired this time?

Just what ends up being in people's wheelhouse or not.

For example:







While I don't think that Valdrakken was horrible. It's clear from these that Lefkowitz favors small ensemble and especially likes more traditional or folk instruments, even his "grand" pieces . So when you give him a piece that calls for those small groups and can use a bunch of that, you play to those interests/strengths.

[enexa]

Wouldn't mind if they surprised us with WoW on console at Gamescom,

WoW on console??? That'd be cool. Right now I wouldn't say it's impossible but heck the game is just waaay to button-bloated for controller. Besides clunky steering/character movement on a stick (run/slow walk/stand - no fine adjustments in between). Also if it ever comes to Xbox I fully expect some implementation of modern upscalers like FSR2/3 or DLSS to make it look "pretty" on consoles (and I'm not sure if that's even possible with current WoW engine since Blizz would've done it years ago if they could I suspect). The Xbox series X for example is not even close to modern gaming PC performance. Like WoW could run on a potato, but if you want to play with it at a pretty looking and stable 60fps on your 4k TV, you'd probably have to upscale somewhere from 720p high/ultra to 4k, and the FSR1 we have right now just isn't up to that task.

So WoW on console:
+further reduce button bloat
+make handling/steering feel more fluid with controller
+further improve code optimization
+while also implementing better upscaling tech

[huth]

WoW on console??? That'd be cool. Right now I wouldn't say it's impossible but heck the game is just waaay to button-bloated for controller. Besides clunky steering/character movement on a stick (run/slow walk/stand - no fine adjustments in between). Also if it ever comes to Xbox I fully expect some implementation of modern upscalers like FSR2/3 or DLSS to make it look "pretty" on consoles (and I'm not sure if that's even possible with current WoW engine since Blizz would've done it years ago if they could I suspect). The Xbox series X for example is not even close to modern gaming PC performance. Like WoW could run on a potato, but if you want to play with it at a pretty looking and stable 60fps on your 4k TV, you'd probably have to upscale somewhere from 720p high/ultra to 4k, and the FSR1 we have right now just isn't up to that task.

So WoW on console:
+further reduce button bloat
+make handling/steering feel more fluid with controller
+further improve code optimization
+while also implementing better upscaling tech

The bigger issue is the large addon-culture WoW has.

[Cheezits]

While I don't think that Valdrakken was horrible. It's clear from these that Lefkowitz favors small ensemble and especially likes more traditional or folk instruments, even his "grand" pieces . So when you give him a piece that calls for those small groups and can use a bunch of that, you play to those interests/strengths.

Pirate Goblin tracks are so strong that I can't help but think these are intended for Booty Bay down the line.

[milkmustache]

I wonder if there's ever an opportunity down the line to neutralize the professions system to not be attached to the expansion location but rather worldwide as a way to generate usage of the old world again. Shipping routes, gathering materials instead of just creating new ore and herbs, old content to get mats, etc. It'd be a bit detached from the meta gameplay, but would help make the world feel large again and maybe have an opportunity to keep mat prices steady. The drop off of prices in things like Bismuth from 11.0 to 11.1 pretty much kills gathering until Midnight, this would be a rough cycle to continue.