The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Worldshaper]

WoW on console makes perfect sense for Midnight, actually,.

The expansion is basically targeted at casual gamers who just want to 'squee' at pretty things and collect stuff, and the 30+ millennial moms and dads who yearn for their glory days of yesteryear, raiding the Sunwell with their mates.

They even said housing has to be really easy to do, and accessible to anyone. Perfect couch mini-game in-between Eversong Woods questing sessions.

[alex wolf]

I agree, you could - but seriously, who would do that on xbox? that sounds terribly complex for a game clearly targeted at a "wider" audience.



I imagine quick priority target changing to be a nightmare with a controller. Either you have to be real quick zapping trough the mobs to your desired target, or you ought to end up using a mouse again. Well...



If you want to be competitive in the elite bracket, and we're talking way above 3,5k m+ score for example, then yes I could see the need for some very specific baked-in addons because there even tiny mistakes can mean a bricked key. But again, who would want to play at such a high stakes level on console... not sure.

There are exceptions of course, but I always imagine Xbox gameplay to be targeted at those who prefer a more relaxed experience, sitting chilly on a couch. I have both Xbox-X and PC, and I always find it a little more relaxing playing games with a controller (sacrificing some of the versatility of a MMOmouse+keyboard).
... both have their advantages and disadvantages.

There's surely work to be done before something complex like WoW would launch on console.

The giga casuals make cross bars work on ff14 on PlayStation fwiw, I'm also well aware you can do more or less any of the content in the game with our add-ons, it's just a much slower process of learning and many things are poorly telegraphed (they are improving this) it's much less of a problem later in a season; there's also pvp to be considered where add-ons are a straight up competitive advantage

For target selection you can add small numbers onto name plates and have a controller input cycle through mobs by number, which would be fine as 99% of the time you're not going to be fighting more than 7 or 8 mobs, especially not more than that where single target funneling and target switching is super important


The hardest thing to do on a control id think would be healing a large group

[Black Rider]

How do you imagine the ton's of abilities that classes have can be played on controller

[Makabreska]

The giga casuals make cross bars work on ff14 on PlayStation fwiw, I'm also well aware you can do more or less any of the content in the game with our add-ons, it's just a much slower process of learning and many things are poorly telegraphed (they are improving this) it's much less of a problem later in a season; there's also pvp to be considered where add-ons are a straight up competitive advantage

For target selection you can add small numbers onto name plates and have a controller input cycle through mobs by number, which would be fine as 99% of the time you're not going to be fighting more than 7 or 8 mobs, especially not more than that where single target funneling and target switching is super important


The hardest thing to do on a control id think would be healing a large group

Ok, and now do any of this in any content above LFR, when your movement and reactions have to be quick and precise, all while handling dozens of abilities/macros/whatnot. Because if you can't, you will never be invited to any serious content, making console players 2nd rate. I can already see the LFG tool: "LF 2 DPS for SoB 10, no console players".

[alex wolf]

Ok, and now do any of this in any content above LFR, when your movement and reactions have to be quick and precise, all while handling dozens of abilities/macros/whatnot. Because if you can't, you will never be invited to any serious content, making console players 2nd rate. I can already see the LFG tool: "LF 2 DPS for SoB 10, no console players".

People do the hardest content in ff14 on console, also "people won't take you to a m+ group" is clearly not a problem for the developers considering how that's the game play loop for lots of non meta specs

Not to mention the fact that people raiding above herioc or doing m+ above a 10 are a very small part of the overall community, and that heroic raid and m+10s would be completable on a controller, people play souls likes on controllers too and that also requires precise movement


Also as I already said, you can have 32 (probably 31 cuz one button would be a jump button probably but still) easy key binds using just face buttons and shoulders buttons + d pad and even more for stuff you have to use more rarely and it's not like cross bars are any more complicated than the standard MMO thing of using control and shift to create more easy to reach key combos for key binds, if anything it might be a little easier to hit a crossbar on a controller than something like, control-shift-5

[Lady Atia]

Ok, and now do any of this in any content above LFR, when your movement and reactions have to be quick and precise, all while handling dozens of abilities/macros/whatnot. Because if you can't, you will never be invited to any serious content, making console players 2nd rate. I can already see the LFG tool: "LF 2 DPS for SoB 10, no console players".

Again, you could just switch to your keyboard for any "serious" content, and use the controller for anything chill. It's not really that hard guys. And not different than scheduling days off your week to do mythic raiding or getting a headset for voice - if you want to do cutting edge/elite stuff you have to invest some basics first.

In other news, anyone else thinking it's kinda weird that we have kinda Revendreth themed Felbats as Gladiator mounts this expansion? Originally I thought they were supposed to be stonebats from the Ringing Depths or Hallowfall (but than again, the models aren't used elsewhere from what I see), but they never changed the name of the mounts from felbat to something else and season 2's actually has red skin aswell. Could just be laziness from the devs who were assigned to work on the mount but yeah.

One could argue that BfA also had random gladiator mounts that didn't really played into it's theme but alteast they were "brutal protodrakes for the faction conflict".

[Raetary]

How do you imagine the ton's of abilities that classes have can be played on controller

You don't have to imagine anything.
You can literally play the game on controller right now.

[Worldshaper]

Listening to the old Cataclysm login screen music is just great. I love how that expansion was packaged. From the initial announcement trailer with sweeping views of the revamped Azeroth and the two new races, to the Deathwing cinematic.

I'm gonna say this again, because it's still true:

WoD and Legion cashed in on the Burning Crusade nostalgia, and wrapped up the Burning Legion story (for the time being). Think of them as builder-spender rotations in WoW, but instead it's for expansions. WoD builds up towards the finale in Legion.

BfA and Shadowlands did the same for Wrath of the Lich King (but also kept building the Old Gods, since they were still a threat to be dealt with in the future and couldn't just be left to rot in a corner somewhere).

Dragonflight and TWW were meant to do the same for Cataclysm, with a ton of focus on dragons, the elements and Elementals, Old God cultists, the Hour of Twilight, goblins and worgen, a new dwarven land, Queen Azshara and the naga, and so on (before Metzen returned and they came up with the Worldsoul Saga, effectively doing what Peter Jackson did with the Hobbit by turning it into a trilogy instead).

So we're definitely still in the "Cataclysm homage"-phase of WoW's timeline.

What's really interesting, then, is how they intend to pay tribute to Mists of Pandaria.

We've had MoP Remix, and we're getting Classic: MoP in a few months. Will whatever comes next after the Worldsoul Saga lean into the whole Pandaria theme a bit more, perhaps?

I'm thinking that means:

- A big break from all the normal serious storylines (at least that's how MoP was pitched to us, even if it did end up having the Sha etc.).

- Travel somewhere new, explore a new people and a new civilization. Explore, wander, and experience things. Just very different altogether from what we're used to back home.

- Going behind the storm (instead of mist) to find what was hidden (I know they kind of used this trope already with the Dragon Isles, but who cares).

- A new type of dragons (Erinethria's brood instead of the Cloud serpents).

- Perhaps a bit tropical, might involve Plunder Isle or Tel'abim in the pre-launch experience? Fits with Nightsquall, anyhow.

- Avaloren's "heretics" could be a bit like the Mogu on Pandaria. A warring, mighty people originally created as Titan-forged but over thousands of years developed into their own, independent culture and civilization with its own agenda.

- Big "maybe", but perhaps a new faction conflict of sorts. Perhaps not between Anduin and Thrall per se, but maybe there are new sub-factions that disagree with the main leadership after TLT. Or perhaps the expeditions sent to Avaloren end up being so isolated, and everything is about survival over there, so we end up fighting instead of cooperating. That kinda does make sense when there's a lack of world-ending threats, to begin squabbling between ourselves again.

- Could perhaps explore cultures we haven't seen as much inspiration from in WoW thus far, like the Japanese or one of the many within Africa. Would fit kind of well with a theme of battle-hardened Avalorians that defy the will of the Titans.

----------------

So 14.0 is even likelier to be an "age of exploration"-type of innocent adventure, starting out. We deal with whatever shady business the Titans have going on in TLT, which might entail beating Odyn and breaking his grip on the storming sea. So the storms dissipate, allowing us to sail west/east and discover the other side of Azeroth.

Perhaps they planned the Avaloren stuff even before Metzen's return, as a two-expansion "MoP homage" to be introduced after TWW was done. But then it was just delayed by a couple of expansions to give some old concepts more room to breathe in Midnight and TLT.

[Nymrohd]

I am sure dedicated players can play the game with a controller and without addons. But that clearly would be much more challenging. I think in ESO trial trifectas are completed as far as six months later on console than on PC.

For the casual market, it should not be an issue and that is a huge market. For everyone else the game can still be available

[Khaza-R]

Listening to the old Cataclysm login screen music is just great. I love how that expansion was packaged. From the initial announcement trailer with sweeping views of the revamped Azeroth and the two new races, to the Deathwing cinematic.

I'm gonna say this again, because it's still true:

WoD and Legion cashed in on the Burning Crusade nostalgia, and wrapped up the Burning Legion story (for the time being). Think of them as builder-spender rotations in WoW, but instead it's for expansions. WoD builds up towards the finale in Legion.

BfA and Shadowlands did the same for Wrath of the Lich King (but also kept building the Old Gods, since they were still a threat to be dealt with in the future and couldn't just be left to rot in a corner somewhere).

Dragonflight and TWW were meant to do the same for Cataclysm, with a ton of focus on dragons, the elements and Elementals, Old God cultists, the Hour of Twilight, goblins and worgen, a new dwarven land, Queen Azshara and the naga, and so on (before Metzen returned and they came up with the Worldsoul Saga, effectively doing what Peter Jackson did with the Hobbit by turning it into a trilogy instead).

So we're definitely still in the "Cataclysm homage"-phase of WoW's timeline.

What's really interesting, then, is how they intend to pay tribute to Mists of Pandaria.

We already had MoP homage in BfA. People were literally calling it MoP 2.0 because the story is essentially a retread. Saying it marketed itself off WotLK nostalgia seems like a big stretch. And I really don't see TWW being similar at all to Cataclysm for that matter. If its heavily tied to any expansion it would be BfA.

[Worldshaper]

We already had MoP homage in BfA. People were literally calling it MoP 2.0 because the story is essentially a retread. Saying it marketed itself off WotLK nostalgia seems like a big stretch. And I really don't see TWW being similar at all to Cataclysm for that matter. If its heavily tied to any expansion it would be BfA.

Let's see, am I describing Cataclysm or Dragonflight/TWW with the following features?

- Dragons and Dragon Aspects
- Black dragons meddling with the Void
- A dangerous artifact from the past, forged by goblins
- The elements in focus, as well as the Elementals
- Old God Cultists trying to bring about the end of the world
- A Harbinger serving the Old Gods' cause in bringing about the end of the world
- A new Dwarven zone with a focus on "new" dwarves being attacked by Old God minions and cultists
- A new underground zone, near the core of the world
- A new underwater zone, featuring Queen Azshara's naga
- A new zone featuring aworld tree, as well as the Wild Gods as the fire elementals and Druid of the Flame invade
- A new zone set in the deserts of southern Kalimdor
- Mount Kajaro and the home of the goblins
- Exploring ancient Titan dungeons with Brann
- Fighting to reclaim Gilneas
- Aiding the bronze dragonflight in the timeways
- A great storm out at sea
- The world being "reawoken" (revamped)

Similarly, am I describing Wrath of the Lich King or BfA/Shadowlands below?

- Uther, Sylvanas, Jaina, Bolvar Fordragon, and Arthas are part of the main cast.
- An attack on the capital city of Lordaeron.
- Journey into the land of the dead.
- Souls are being harvested and used in horrific ways.
- Deal with a story about old wounds, revenge, and justice. Letting go of the past, and facing your inner demons.
- Wicked new tribe of trolls taking a big spotlight, their culture largely centered around death.
- A lord of the damned is our main antagonist.
- Defeat an Old God lurking in the background.
- There is an Old God inside a Titan facility and we have to defeat some corrupted Titan-forged.
- A fallen world tree, planted by Fandral Staghelm.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

WoW still struggles with optimization, both its design and it's usage on PC. I'd hope they take a massive undertaking to correct this before even considering console releases.

I wonder if people just want to be able to play WoW with a controller. If so... you can already do that.

- - - Updated - - -

... the world revamp that is currently spread out across the roadmap for the next two expansions?

Going back "to the old world" or however Metzen said it, being Quel'Thalas and Northrend, is not an announcement of revamping the entire world. It's probably closer to updating zones like they did in Cataclysm but with modern day Blizzard tech/expertise compared to 2010.

[Ersula]

snip

Are you familiar with the game? Half the things you listed aren't even shared plotpoints, even when you make them super vague.

How do you imagine the ton's of abilities that classes have can be played on controller

The same way FFXIV does it; the 8 buttons represent a different hotbar when each of the shoulder buttons are held. That's 4x8+4 buttons.

[Cheezits]

Going back "to the old world" or however Metzen said it, being Quel'Thalas and Northrend, is not an announcement of revamping the entire world. It's probably closer to updating zones like they did in Cataclysm but with modern day Blizzard tech/expertise compared to 2010.

There's nothing confirming it, but the fact that they are making two new areas in Kalimdor and EK may point to a revamp extending beyond just QT in Midnight. We don't know if the neighborhoods are instanced and it's unlikely they would just be slapped onto the old map without any changes if they aren't.

Additionally, there are the updated human structure models that have been in the files forever (houses, barns, towers) but haven't been implemented nor seem to be relevant in TWW, Midnight or TLT. So they may use the new neighborhoods as an excuse to do HD versions of the capital cities and their surroundings.

To address the X expansion is like Y expansion: Dragonflight carries on the Cata aspect story, but the entire Dragon Isles are based off Northrend zones. Dragonblight is retroactively a mini Dragon Isles. So bullet points like that don't work.

[Joshuaj]

Let's see, am I describing Cataclysm or Dragonflight/TWW with the following features?

- Dragons and Dragon Aspects
- Black dragons meddling with the Void
- A dangerous artifact from the past, forged by goblins
- The elements in focus, as well as the Elementals
- Old God Cultists trying to bring about the end of the world
- A Harbinger serving the Old Gods' cause in bringing about the end of the world
- A new Dwarven zone with a focus on "new" dwarves being attacked by Old God minions and cultists
- A new underground zone, near the core of the world
- A new underwater zone, featuring Queen Azshara's naga
- A new zone featuring aworld tree, as well as the Wild Gods as the fire elementals and Druid of the Flame invade
- A new zone set in the deserts of southern Kalimdor
- Mount Kajaro and the home of the goblins
- Exploring ancient Titan dungeons with Brann
- Fighting to reclaim Gilneas
- Aiding the bronze dragonflight in the timeways
- A great storm out at sea
- The world being "reawoken" (revamped)

Similarly, am I describing Wrath of the Lich King or BfA/Shadowlands below?

- Uther, Sylvanas, Jaina, Bolvar Fordragon, and Arthas are part of the main cast.
- An attack on the capital city of Lordaeron.
- Journey into the land of the dead.
- Souls are being harvested and used in horrific ways.
- Deal with a story about old wounds, revenge, and justice. Letting go of the past, and facing your inner demons.
- Wicked new tribe of trolls taking a big spotlight, their culture largely centered around death.
- A lord of the damned is our main antagonist.
- Defeat an Old God lurking in the background.
- There is an Old God inside a Titan facility and we have to defeat some corrupted Titan-forged.
- A fallen world tree, planted by Fandral Staghelm.

Solving this is much easier than you think it is. But sure, I'll play along. For the first one:

- Probably DF, since DF was the Dragon expansion. Cata did feature Dragons and the Aspects, but they weren't the only focus in the expansion's theme.
- Gonna assume Cata, since outside of Sarkareth's troops, the Dragons haven't really dabbled in Void energies during DF.
- THIS can be applied to multiple expansions, considering what's implied with the Dark Heart, as well as what's confirmed with the Dragon Soul. This is fine.
- Cataclysm
- Cataclysm again (TWW has the Black Blood, but outside of that, there's really no Old God presence this expac, and I love that)
- Cataclysm, cause Deathwing was a harbinger that served the Old Gods. Xal'atath serves the Void Lords. Different ballparks entirely.
- Cataclysm. Earthen aren't really "Dwarves", and the Wildhammer Dwarves were getting attacked by the Twilight's Hammer.
- TWW, as Deepholm in Cata is an entirely separate elemental plane. TWW actually has us going near Azeroth's core.
- Cataclysm
- This applies to multiple expansions admittedly (Since both Cata and DF have a new world tree, and both had Fire elementals and the Druids of the Flame invading)
- Cataclysm (Undermine doesn't showcase Mount Kajaro)
- TWW (Can't say I remember seeing Brann much in Cataclysm, let alone DF)
- Dragonflight (It's the only time where the Gilneans actually fought to reclaim their home, as they lost it in Cata).
- Dragonflight
- Gonna assume TWW, since it talks about The Storming Seas. Not sure if there are other example's I'm forgetting however. Maelstrom doesn't count.
- Cataclysm (DF and TWW had no revamps).

Now, for the second one:

- Shadowlands (Uther and Bolvar aren't MCs in Wrath)
- BFA
- Shadowlands
- Would say this applies to a lot of expansions, not just the 3 mentioned above. However, for convenience sake, I'll say Shadowlands.
- lol again, applies to a lot of expansions, not just the 3 above. However, I'll still say Shadowlands for convenience sake.
- Wrath. Zul'Drak. The Zandalari aren't really a "tribe" in comparison, nor do they interact with Death's magics much outside of Rastakhan's Bwonsamdi deal.
- Wrath. The Lich King is the King of the Damned. The Jailer is far beyond that.
- Again, multiple expansions past these 3, but I'll say BFA due to N'Zoth having a much greater background presence.
- Wrath. We don't fight corrupted Titanforged at N'Zoth's prison.
- BFA. It's the only expac of the 3 that deals with Teldrassil directly.

- - - Updated - - -

Now, shall we keep going? Or are we done with the whacky comparisons?

[Worldshaper]

I find it legitimately hilarious that anybody would be unable to see the very clear parallels between Cataclysm and DF/TWW.

Like, it's like looking at Warcraft 3 and saying: "Nah man, that's not a successor to Warcraft 2. I mean lots of games have orcs and elves. There aren't any real links between these two games in particular."



Cataclysm

The harbinger of the Void is trying to usher in the end of days, conscripting various allies along the way including corrupted dragons, evil Elementals, cultists, and bugs.

Good dragons and other champions (dwarves, elves, etc.), empowered by world trees and Azeroth herself (seemingly) are trying to prevent doom for our world, and the coming of the Void Lords.

DF/TWW

The harbinger of the Void is trying to usher in the end of days, conscripting various allies along the way including corrupted dragons, evil Elementals, cultists, and bugs.

Good dragons and other champions (dwarves, elves, etc.), empowered by world trees and Azeroth herself (seemingly) are trying to prevent doom for our world, and the coming of the Void Lords.

They're the same stories!

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I find it legitimately hilarious that anybody would be unable to see the very clear parallels between Cataclysm and DF/TWW.

You weren't describing parallels; you were listing off points to somehow prove they were the same.

[Makabreska]

Going back "to the old world" or however Metzen said it, being Quel'Thalas and Northrend, is not an announcement of revamping the entire world. It's probably closer to updating zones like they did in Cataclysm but with modern day Blizzard tech/expertise compared to 2010.

Cata-style revamp would not be good enough, even with better tech. Give us WoD lvl of changes or bust!

[Worldshaper]

You weren't describing parallels; you were listing off points to somehow prove they were the same.

The question is: how do they not prove that?

In other words, why would anybody arrive at the conclusion that they're not the same, when everything about them suggests they are?

[milkmustache]

The question is: how do they not prove that?

In other words, why would anybody arrive at the conclusion that they're not the same, when everything about them suggests they are?

I think in these parallels you're trying to draw you're taking parts and calling it the sum, but leaving out a lot of other parts. While there are a lot of similar story beats, there are a lot of very different story beats. Cataclysm is entirely about war and destruction, whereas DF was supposed to be about homecoming and renewal, peace after tragedy. TWW is building up into a larger war, but its' themes are far more subdued to a hidden battle.

At that rate you could say Wrath and TWW are the same. Earthen, Nerubians, a Windrunner sister and the Titans. Old Gods interfering, new continent, etc. etc.

Expansions will naturally have similar story beats, but that doesn't make them parallels.