The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Kiivar86]

Could be something, could be nothing, but saw someone on Reddit point out that the tier set images in the raid overview article that all of them, with the exception of Evoker of course, are taken in the order halls.

Just a fun thing to notice.

[Worldshaper]

I realllllly doubt we will drop the Void plotline entirely in Midnight when we only know one Void Lord and Azshara will likely be using it in a later saga.

However it will be the "Void Legion" big showdown expansion, down to us having some playable form of the bad guys (Demon Hunters being demons, Void class and/or Ethereals).

Oh I'm not saying the Void is gone forever after Midnight. Nor is Disorder after Legion or Death after Shadowlands. But as you said, it'll be the "Void Legion" showdown. And as Metzen said, we'll "banish the Shadow, forever".

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Could be something, could be nothing, but saw someone on Reddit point out that the tier set images in the raid overview article that all of them, with the exception of Evoker of course, are taken in the order halls.

Just a fun thing to notice.

Ooh, interesting.

I really miss the Order Halls. Now I'm secretly hoping they throw us a bone by giving us a new hearthstone to our Order Halls, and perhaps introduce a new vendor from which we can aquire tier sets that don't really fit in different raids. For example, does a majestic Crusader set for Paladins make sense to drop within a Goblin raid? Perhaps, perhaps not. Maybe a token we can exchange for a set in our Order Halls, though?

[Kiivar86]

Ooh, interesting.

I really miss the Order Halls. Now I'm secretly hoping they throw us a bone by giving us a new hearthstone to our Order Halls, and perhaps introduce a new vendor from which we can aquire tier sets that don't really fit in different raids. For example, does a majestic Crusader set for Paladins make sense to drop within a Goblin raid? Perhaps, perhaps not. Maybe a token we can exchange for a set in our Order Halls, though?

As a mage main, a hearthstone to the order hall would be kind of amusing, not gonna lie.

As I recall, early on every class had a teleport to their order hall, before they removed them from a bunch of them, so why not just bring them back, not like it really hurts things. And while I'd still prefer WoD remix, Legion would allow a fair amount of transmog options like that.

(Also let me get the damned Kirin Tor style Aluneth, Blizzard! It appearing in the Order Hall taunts me so)

edit: Interestingly, looking things up, the unused Aldrachi skins have since appeared via the trading post, so there's still hope for me!

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Can we talk about hot lizards again?

You can keep that in your brain, or a personal JPEG folder on your hard drive.

[Worldshaper]

As a mage main, a hearthstone to the order hall would be kind of amusing, not gonna lie.

As I recall, early on every class had a teleport to their order hall, before they removed them from a bunch of them, so why not just bring them back, not like it really hurts things. And while I'd still prefer WoD remix, Legion would allow a fair amount of transmog options like that.

(Also let me get the damned Kirin Tor style Aluneth, Blizzard! It appearing in the Order Hall taunts me so)

edit: Interestingly, looking things up, the unused Aldrachi skins have since appeared via the trading post, so there's still hope for me!

Haha. You'll end up on a sad beach in Khaz Algar. It's Teldrassil all over again. Maybe there could be some sort of pocket-dimension outside of time. Perhaps some NPC within the Chamber of the Guardian will just explain to you that this isn't actually a tower in Dalaran, it was just accessed through it previously.

Kel'Thuzad seems to have a lil' place all to himself, after all. Wouldn't the Guardian?

[Kiivar86]

Haha. You'll end up on a sad beach in Khaz Algar. It's Teldrassil all over again. Maybe there could be some sort of pocket-dimension outside of time. Perhaps some NPC within the Chamber of the Guardian will just explain to you that this isn't actually a tower in Dalaran, it was just accessed through it previously.

Kel'Thuzad seems to have a lil' place all to himself, after all. Wouldn't the Guardian?

Well I do love beaches...

And true, it would make sense. If nothing else, I hope one of the house designs coming in Midnight is the classic mage tower design. I'd happily settle for that. I want to set up an atelier.

[Black Rider]

A Bael'dun Excavator standing before the cave can be interacted with by Alliance adventurers. He recommends the adventurer to turn away, as before the Cataclysm hit, the dwarves dug up "something that should've stayed buried", and hopes that the landslide was enough to keep "it" down.[10]

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Bael_Modan

It's a good time to connect Bael'Dun to Earthen Dwarves

[Hitei]

This theory goes out the window if Azshara appears in Midnight.

The devs themselves have openly said, more than once, that the way they decide on expansions is they have an ongoing bunch of ideas for places that might be interesting and then when it's time to concept the expansion (after next), get together in a group and decide where they want to go, then steer the story in that direction.

No one is going "ah yeah, we've finished Wrath of the Lich King Sequel Part 2, now the next one is Cataclysm Sequel Part 1, and after that we'll have Cataclysm Sequel Part 2, and then Mists of Pandaria Sequel Part 1".

DF isn't Dragonflight because Cata came after Wrath, it was DF because the only two remaining locations of note in existing lore by the time we reached SL were the Dragon Isles and Undermine. Just like BfA is BfA because people had been clamoring for Zandalar, "south seas", Azshara and N'zoth, and also a return to Alliance and Horde conflict. So they made an expansion about that. It has "death" in it because by the time they were working on BfA they knew they wanted to do a Shadowlands expansion next, so they threw in early storybeats for it. Every expansion is just them scattering a few one-off references for some of their frontrunner ideas (see: Alvaloren) and then doing story and character beats for the following expansion that they are very sure is going to be that:

Mop makes a small reference to the Legion returning because they were thinking maybe they want to do that soon, but they are sure of a WC2 based expansion, so it does the actual setup for WoD. Legion scatters potential Shadowlands (Helya and Sylvanas deal, Odyn giving his eye to some entity in the afterlife dangerous enough to be a threat to watchers), potential Void (Alleria, the EN flower, Star Augur) and then because they knew they wanted to do faction wars and south seas/Azshara next, features the naga in a minor antagonistic role, and brings the Genn/Forsaken conflict back into the limelight. Then in BfA they do the establishing work for Bwonsamdi and Sylvanas and Anduin paralleling Arthas because they decided on Shadowlands next, and they think they might do Dragon Isles afterwards, so you have island expeditions talking about how Wrathion is looking for them.

Do you think that's just coincidence?

It's not really a matter of coincidence, it's that people see and single out what they want to see if they're deliberately looking for a pattern and dismiss whatever breaks the pattern by thinking around it. In order for the pattern to stay a pattern BfA needs to be "Wrath" so even though the expansion does not fit as a "wrath sequel" at all and is screaming Cata and MoP, you ignore that it's very clearly an expansion that is the direct follow-up to the old god and Azshara storylines, and the direct follow up to the Alliance vs Horde, fall of Theramore storylines and themes, and just focus on a handful of minor death references and the "meta" that Sylvanas was interacting with the Jailer to completely reclass it as being a Wrath-based expansion. As exampled above, TWW has just as many if not more themes and storybeats associated with Wrath as it does with Cata, but you want it to be part of the "cata trilogy" so you only look at the stuff it shares with Cata.

14.0, or whatever Alvaloren ends up being, will probably have absolutely nothing to do with Mists of Pandaria (the current consensus seems to be it'll be Arathi+the Light, some Dragons, etc.), but if it needs to fit the pattern, you can focus on how it's a mysterious island we're going off to explore and that makes it the Mop sequel even though that doesn't make it any more of a MoP sequel than Dragonflight was. If instead, in an unlikely twist, 14.0 were a Lifelands expansion, then we could conceptualize it as a MoP sequel by latching onto wild gods = august celestials, or it being a pristine, mystical natural world that we are trampling on, or whatever. If you swapped BfA and Legion, we could pretend the pattern is still there by saying Legion was made as the first Wrath sequel, because look how it has Sylvanas doing death stuff, and deals with Bolvar, and has Titan keepers.

It's the Teriz/Revamp issue. Any mechanized thing that gets added or addressed is going to look like it's part of a deliberate series of mechanical things indicating Tinkers, or Undermine or whatever is coming if you are constantly keeping an eye out for those things and reading into their presence. Any random updated vanilla animal model or unusued building added or Lordaeron L on a PvP stage is going to be a sign of a revamp happening if you are always looking for evidence that a revamp is gonna get added. If you want TWW (or the Saga) to be the finale of the cataclysm arc, then you're going to see that, and then when it's not what's expected (like the original elemental stuff) there is always going to be other evidence to pivot. If 11.0 were K'aresh and the cosmic void, it'd fit because Void = HoT = old gods. If it were Ny'alotha it'd fit because Old gods, if it were elemental it'd match, if it were Azshara it'd match, if it were Undermine it'd match... if 11.0 had been, instead, a Northrend revamp and 100% about the Scarlet Crusade, it'd still match because "DF dealt with the Elemental/dragon part and 11.0 is the world revamp part".

[Worldshaper]

[snip]

All I know is, I've yet to see anybody explain just how it can be that Cata shares so many elements with DF/TWW.

There is a Harbinger of the Void. What are the odds?

The Druids of the Flame attacked the world tree, how often does that happen?

The Elementals had an uprising against the Dragon Aspects and their allies.

A goblin-made artifact is the key to the expansion's finale.

Cultists are seeking the Hour of Twilight.

I could go on.

These things do not happen in every expansion. Especially together.

[huth]

All I know is, I've yet to see anybody explain just how it can be that Cata shares so many elements with DF/TWW.

It's part of the same general universe and long-term story.

You're guilty of severe confirmation bias.

[Worldshaper]

It's part of the same general universe and long-term story.

You're guilty of severe confirmation bias.

That's not enough of an explanation, not by a long shot. Had one or two of these "Cataclysmic" elements been present, alongside a few things from other themes, then you would perhaps have been correct.

But 95% of "Cataclysm" coming together all at once again? That's not a coincidence. That's remake-territory, right there.

It's not like it's by chance that these are the specific things present during an "Hour of Twilight" expansion, either.

The Elementals were enslaved by the Old Gods.

Deathwing was corrupted by the Old Gods.

The World Trees were meant to contain the Old Gods.

The dragons rose to power because they showed valor in their fight against Galakrond, a creation of the Old Gods.

Queen Azshara and the Naga were created by the Old Gods.

And so on. We are in the Hour of Twilight-part of WoW. Enjoy it while it lasts.

[milkmustache]

All I know is, I've yet to see anybody explain just how it can be that Cata shares so many elements with DF/TWW.

But what is there to explain? You're picking events from two different expansions and claiming they're a direct parallel to one expansion so it must mean... something?

[Worldshaper]

But what is there to explain? You're picking events from two different expansions and claiming they're a direct parallel to one expansion so it must mean... something?

I'm saying the fact that those expanansions are so similar is because they're part of the same overarching story. Not the story of WoW, but of the Hour of Twilight.

The fact that TWW is tied to DF should be obvious since Xal'atath connects the two. We're still following the same story that began with all the Galakrond and Iridikron speculation we had a year or two back.

She's what Gul'dan was to WoD/Legion, and Sylvanas to BfA/SL. Connective tissue. Instigator. Active agent causing things to unfold the way they do.

This bit of insight lets us extrapolate what the future might entail, which is why it's interesting.

[milkmustache]

I'm saying the fact that those expanansions are so similar is because they're part of the same overarching story. Not the story of WoW, but of the Hour of Twilight.

The fact that TWW is tied to DF should be obvious since Xal'atath connects the two. We're still following the same story that began with all the Galakrond and Iridikron speculation we had a year or two back.

She's what Gul'dan was to WoD/Legion, and Sylvanas to BfA/SL. Connective tissue. Instigator. Active agent causing things to unfold the way they do.

This bit of insight lets us extrapolate what the future might entail, which is why it's interesting.

This much is true, but I think calling them part of the same story as Cataclysm is a stretch.

[Worldshaper]

This much is true, but I think calling them part of the same story as Cataclysm is a stretch.

I asked Copilot to explain Deathwing's agenda to me.

Deathwing's agenda in **World of Warcraft: Cataclysm** was to bring about the **Hour of Twilight**, a cataclysmic event that would usher in the end of the world and the rise of the Old Gods. Corrupted by the Old Gods and driven mad by their influence, Deathwing sought to reshape Azeroth in their image, causing widespread destruction and chaos. His ultimate goal was to free the Old Gods from their imprisonment and annihilate all life on Azeroth, allowing darkness and corruption to reign supreme. In his twisted vision, only the strongest and most malevolent creatures would survive to serve the Old Gods in the new world he aimed to create.

His actions set in motion a series of catastrophic events, and it was up to the heroes of Azeroth, along with the Dragon Aspects, to thwart his plans and prevent the Hour of Twilight from coming to pass.

Is there a particular aspect of Deathwing's story that you find most compelling?

Hmm, sounds familiar.

[huth]

That's not enough of an explanation, not by a long shot. Had one or two of these "Cataclysmic" elements been present, alongside a few things from other themes, then you would perhaps have been correct.

But 95% of "Cataclysm" coming together all at once again? That's not a coincidence. That's remake-territory, right there.

It's also not remotely what you're actually looking at, rendering that hypothetical irrelevant.

[Worldshaper]

It's also not remotely what you're actually looking at, rendering that hypothetical irrelevant.

Let's have a quick look at Cataclysm's story, shall we?

Deathwing, Harbinger of the Old Gods, breaks out of the elemental plane of Earth, causing elemental upheaval as he terrorises Azeroth.

Players help in the battle for Gilneas as the Gilneans wrestle with defining their identities. Players also adventure around the Undermine as Goblins, where they obtain a speedy trike as a mount, working with one of the cartels.

The Druids of the Flame and the fire Elementals of the Firelands launch an attack on the world tree but are resisted by Wild Gods and Night Elves called Guardians of Hyjal.

The forces of the Void attack dwarven lands, where a clan of brutes known for taming and abusing dragons side with the Horde, which a clan of dwarves side with the Alliance.

Queen Azshara's naga, aided by forces of the Void such as kraken and faceless ones, seek power by subduing the water Elementals. She's not personally present, but she is looming on the horizon.

Below the earth inside a huge cave, we fly mighty airships around the great crystal known as the world pillar, which has become damaged and unstable, as we fight to find of minions of the Void before the crystal can be repaired.

In the southern wastes of Kalimdor, ancient Titan-forged peoples have turned from their ways, with some choosing to remain loyal to duty, and others follow new ambitions.

Archaeology sees the light of day, as players race to dig up old artifacts.

Players face off against the enemies of Azeroth inside raids featuring black dragons and agents of the Void, where experiments are being made to create foul monsteosities, as well as engage with four elemental lords previously imprisoned by the forces of Order, each representing the four elements of water, air, fire, and earth.

We explore the timeways and visit many important events from the past.

Ultimately the Dragon Aspects join forces to take down the fiery dragon Deathwing,

Oh wait, I just pretty much described the last two years of WoW, from Dragonflight until today. Woopsies.

[huth]

Oh wait, I just pretty much described the last two years of WoW, from Dragonflight until today. Woopsies.

No, you didn't. You also missed all the parts that are different, only looking for similarities. I.e. confirmation bias.

Not sure why you even brought up all the stories that have no match in DF, like Uldum, Deepholm or Twilight Highlands.

Or where you ever fought against Neptulon or Therazane.

[Cheezits]

World Soul Saga Speculation?

[Joshuaj]

Oh I'm not saying the Void is gone forever after Midnight. Nor is Disorder after Legion or Death after Shadowlands. But as you said, it'll be the "Void Legion" showdown. And as Metzen said, we'll "banish the Shadow, forever".

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Ooh, interesting.

I really miss the Order Halls. Now I'm secretly hoping they throw us a bone by giving us a new hearthstone to our Order Halls, and perhaps introduce a new vendor from which we can aquire tier sets that don't really fit in different raids. For example, does a majestic Crusader set for Paladins make sense to drop within a Goblin raid? Perhaps, perhaps not. Maybe a token we can exchange for a set in our Order Halls, though?

"Banish the Shadow forever" is funny, cause didn't Medivh say that regarding the Legion in WC3? is anything, Midnight is the WC3 for the Void.

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But, ya know, much cooler.

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I asked Copilot to explain Deathwing's agenda to me.



Hmm, sounds familiar.

Don't use an AI to explain shit. Just look it up.