The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Joshuaj]

First Ones are intentionally boring: you're not.meant to read much into them other than a) They initially ordered the Cosmos and b) Their creative powers are still available to be taken

"Oh but they are so homogeneous!" Yes, that's by design. Walls in a house tend to look the same.

"Oh they don't have personality!" Yes, they're not meant to. They exist only as a framework for the setting, on which you can set up cosmic players with actual personalities, such as the Titans, Elune, etc.

You can perhaps argue that the six-force structure is detrimental to the setting (as long as you don't base your argument on some "Elune created the naaru" throwaway line), but not realising the First Ones are non-characters BY DESIGN just show how some people in this fandom really suck at worldbuilding.

This is also true ngl, but they didn't just establish the cosmic order. They quite literally made the cosmic forces from their very "being".

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I think there's definitely room for good cosmic stories if they're done right, but they always need a lot of buildup. We should never be fighting big cosmic-level threats from the start of a Saga, or they'll lose all their impact and turn the setting into an absurd power-scaling mess, where nothing actually feels meaningful. Legion, for example, did it right- we've dealt with minor incursions from them from Vanilla and BC, and had their invasion teased throughout MoP and WoD before we faced them in full- and even then, only went to their domain at the end. The Void and Titan arcs are on the right track too- they're entities that we've known about for a long time, and we'll have Dragonflight, TWW, and possibly part of Midnight as immediate buildup before facing them.

That kind of enemy only really fits as the climax for a Saga. Take a hypothetical Light threat, for example. I think it could be great if, say, we spent a couple expansions with heavy Arathi influence (maybe one EK revamp expansion where they initially seem to come as allies before conflict breaks out, then another where we go to Avaloren to strike back), gradually learning about some Cosmic-level Light allies they have. Who we would face in the final expansion of that Saga, or even just the final tiers. But just diving straight into conflict with said Cosmic threat, without time to learn about them first or connect them to us, just doesn't work.


Dumbing it down by forcing everything into six categories with too-similar Pantheons was also an issue that didn't really work for some forces (Demons and the Void absolutely shouldn't have a unified pantheon or be filling a crucial role for the cosmos) and cheapened some entities that didn't fit into any one group before retcons (Elune, especially, who did have ties to Life before seemingly being forced into that pantheon, but was also a prominent Light force who created the Naaru). Those forces existing, and some of them having structured pantheons, is fine, but it shouldn't be forced on all of them. Demons (in their natural state) shouldn't be unified (in fact I'd love to see an expansion about powerful demonic warlords fighting for supremacy, maybe with us aiding one who wants to leave us alone?). The Void Lords should all have their own dark agendas rather than working together (maybe Dimensius wants to just devour everything while others want to corrupt our world like the Titans believed?) And Life, too, should be wild, primal, and chaotic.

Fortunately, they seem to be moving away from that extreme homogenization lately. The Arathi book in particular dismisses it as a discredited theory, so perhaps there is room again for cosmic entities to not fit cleanly into generic boxes. And maybe we'll actually see a proper payoff to all the mysteries about Elune after all.

Pantheons are not unified inherently. Also, the Arathi theory still uses the hexagonal patterns of the cosmology, just in their own way. And ontop of that, I wouldn't trust an arathi theory over guys like Firim, the Eternal Ones, over the Titans (Who very clearly know more either by studying the cosmology and the Progenitors, or by...well...their very nature).

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If you look at the traditional way these forces are expressed in the game, I agree. The Burning Legion and the Scourge feel distinct and interesting in their own ways.

But Zereth-whatitsitcalled is the opposite of that, is what I'm trying to say. It turns these classic WoW antagonists into nuances of the same thing. Different expressions of the same cosmic goo.

Not ultimately governed and shaped by the malice and the scheming of people like Sargeras and Gul'dan, but rather set in stone from the dawn of the universe.

And yes, the First Ones is basically just Danuser going "I want to break free from Metzen and one-up him. I'm in charge of the lore, now."

The Titans used to be seen as (pretty much) the progenitors of the Universe. The Makers. The mysterious entities that created or shaped our world, then suddenly vanished. Leaving ruins and traces of their might for us to discover.

Now the First Ones have gotten that role instead, except for the entire cosmos. And unlike the Titans, what we know of them and their creation so far seems entirely void of any personality. While Titan lore felt interesting, inspired by Norse, Greek, Egyptian, Roman mythology, the First Ones just feels as hollow as the locations and machines they left behind. No texture, no contrast, no intrigue, just robotic and fabricated.

Danuser can't make decisions like there inherently. It HAS to be a unified vote. Also, nothing implies it's "breaking free" from anyone, as Metzen was straight up not working at Blizzard during SL's development.

Also, your talks on the Titans being based off mythology can apply to the First Ones and how they're based off real life concepts as well, such as Sacred Geometry.

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I should just talk Undermine rn. It's obvious y'all will never be convinced by what I have to say regarding this topic.

How are we liking the patch rn?

[Houle]

First Ones are intentionally boring: you're not.meant to read much into them other than a) They initially ordered the Cosmos and b) Their creative powers are still available to be taken

"Oh but they are so homogeneous!" Yes, that's by design. Walls in a house tend to look the same.

"Oh they don't have personality!" Yes, they're not meant to. They exist only as a framework for the setting, on which you can set up cosmic players with actual personalities, such as the Titans, Elune, etc.

You can perhaps argue that the six-force structure is detrimental to the setting (as long as you don't base your argument on some "Elune created the naaru" throwaway line), but not realising the First Ones are non-characters BY DESIGN just show how some people in this fandom really suck at worldbuilding.

Them being "non-characters" is not really the issue.

Their main issue is that they are just a cheaper copy of the titans, who were only created to fill the role that the titans originally had in the overall narrative of the franchise - just on a larger scale. They are pretty much just another example of the "copy the old stuff but make it biiiiiigger" design that they employed a lot in SL.

The six-force structure and its subsequent problems cant really be blamed on them, thats an issue that came way before their introduction, with Chronicle. What one could say, however, is that they made said issue worse, by making them all more equal and more synonymous than before. All of them come from a Zereth, all of them (probably) have a Pantheon, all of them try to triumph over the others, etc.

[Foolicious]

11.1 isn't even out a full day (for eu) and we are back in the endless loop of discussing the first ones and shadowlands I'm impressed.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

Pivot patches tend to do that, there's just nothing to discuss since all that happened this Major Patch was the Dark Heart was fixed and we can assume Xal'atath will need to use the artifact elsewhere to slurp more.

[Worldshaper]

NGL these introductory quests are not my jam.

Can't wait for 11.1.5 PTR!

[Joshuaj]

NGL these introductory quests are not my jam.

Can't wait for 11.1.5 PTR!

Whatcha mean?

[Worldshaper]

Whatcha mean?

Repetitive, dull theme, tedious, and they never fricking end. The ones around Opportunity Point.

[Eldryth]

Dinars seem to be confirmed to be coming in 11.1.5 now. So it's detached from the Renown so you can farm them quickly without having to catch up on that grind, and I'm pretty sure it's releasing sooner than the initial timegating would have allowed, so the change was probably an improvement.

[Reive]

not referring to anyone in particular but it's funny how the whiny the playerbase gets when the game deviates from the "norm". and then people wonder why retail is so stale...

[Relapses]

Dinars seem to be confirmed to be coming in 11.1.5 now. So it's detached from the Renown so you can farm them quickly without having to catch up on that grind, and I'm pretty sure it's releasing sooner than the initial timegating would have allowed, so the change was probably an improvement.

This seems like a better implementation. I'm still curious how they'll be obtained. Hopefully it'll be just slapping a few LFR bosses like we did in DF S4.

[Osmeric]

Repetitive, dull theme, tedious, and they never fricking end. The ones around Opportunity Point.

If anything, it gets worse in Undermine.

[Worldshaper]

If anything, it gets worse in Undermine.

Yeah, I just logged off for the night after playing for about 30 min down there. Korthia was better.

[Relapses]

not referring to anyone in particular but it's funny how the whiny the playerbase gets when the game deviates from the "norm". and then people wonder why retail is so stale...

The real irony here is that the devs themselves credit the game's ongoing success with its willingness to evolve.

https://www.videogamer.com/features/...ess-to-evolve/

It turns out that what people mean when they say that "retail is stale," is actually that devs haven't listened to their super-specific, super idealistic suggestions on how the game should be developed. The game is successful in spite of them, and that makes them all the more inclined to seek validation for their (often terrible) opinions about how the game should be designed.

[Reive]

The real irony here is that the devs themselves credit the game's ongoing success with its willingness to evolve.

https://www.videogamer.com/features/...ess-to-evolve/

It turns out that what people mean when they say that "retail is stale," is actually that devs haven't listened to their super-specific, super idealistic suggestions on how the game should be developed. The game is successful in spite of them, and that makes them all the more inclined to seek validation for their (often terrible) opinions about how the game should be designed.

personally i appreciate them trying different things even if it's not something i personally enjoy. it's been less than 24 hours and i've already seen many posts about deleting the drive system. this playerbase has gotten really petty when it comes to letting blizzard know they don't enjoy something.

[The-Shan]

Its pretty awkward how every character except renzik is voice acted, especially after they gave Renzik that whole awesome short story/backstory thing.

[Relapses]

personally i appreciate them trying different things even if it's not something i personally enjoy. it's been less than 24 hours and i've already seen many posts about deleting the drive system. this playerbase has gotten really petty when it comes to letting blizzard know they don't enjoy something.

It hasn't gotten petty, it's been this way for eons. The important thing to remember is that places like this forum and reddit are microcosms of the greater WoW community and while you might meet many terminally dissatisfied customers around here, that isn't always representative of the greater community at-large. Blizzard has tools to track player engagement so they know exactly what does and doesn't work long before the zeitgeist turns on a feature. A few buttmad posters who would be upset with anything less than a MMO designed precisely to their desires aren't worth the time it takes to read their posts.

[Worldshaper]

The real irony here is that the devs themselves credit the game's ongoing success with its willingness to evolve.

https://www.videogamer.com/features/...ess-to-evolve/

It turns out that what people mean when they say that "retail is stale," is actually that devs haven't listened to their super-specific, super idealistic suggestions on how the game should be developed. The game is successful in spite of them, and that makes them all the more inclined to seek validation for their (often terrible) opinions about how the game should be designed.

The game always seems the most successful when they're just doing the old school things, though. Natural biomes, sword and board fantasy stuff, dungepns and dragons, the Burning Legion, the Scourge, the Old Gods, and so on.

When they stray off the beaten path and introduce whacky stuff like Shadowlands, players become disillusioned. I hope the Undermine doesn't have that effect.

When the game evolves something the right way, it tends to expand on old things people like. More customisation, prettier horizons, quality of life features for dungeons and raids, and so on.

[Relapses]

The game always seems the most successful when they're just doing the old school things, though. Natural biomes, sword and board fantasy stuff, dungepns and dragons, the Burning Legion, the Scourge, the Old Gods, and so on.

When they stray off the beaten path and introduce whacky stuff like Shadowlands, players become disillusioned. I hope the Undermine doesn't have that effect.

When the game evolves something the right way, it tends to expand on old things people like. More customisation, prettier horizons, quality of life features for dungeons and raids, and so on.

Why is it always that the game evolves in the "right way" when they do the stuff that you personally think they should do?

[Joshuaj]

Yeah, I just logged off for the night after playing for about 30 min down there. Korthia was better.

Lmao wtf is this take?

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The game always seems the most successful when they're just doing the old school things, though. Natural biomes, sword and board fantasy stuff, dungepns and dragons, the Burning Legion, the Scourge, the Old Gods, and so on.

When they stray off the beaten path and introduce whacky stuff like Shadowlands, players become disillusioned. I hope the Undermine doesn't have that effect.

When the game evolves something the right way, it tends to expand on old things people like. More customisation, prettier horizons, quality of life features for dungeons and raids, and so on.

So...the right way to you is nostalgia bait? Come on dude.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

Undermine is actual a better decision than anything else they could've done, obviously the way they moved the Narrative towards it and what justification for said movement is well quite absurd in my opinion, but it is whatever.

It still is probably a better call to at least use the Underground Setting and put Undermine in the game even if it sacrifices the momentum of the A Plot storyline.

Obviously, this is under the assumption that they had no plan which considering the mid production changes wouldn't really surprise me.

If they actually had a plan for this, I find the decisions here rather puzzling as they essentially stopped the narrative momentum for a very, very long time and it only starts up again around Nightfall if we're lucky.

I just feel these big pivots from the A Plot are better served in a game structure with 3 Major Patches, we just have less space for these type of ordeals and so far I feel that the movement of the Pivot Patches to B Plots and Side related storylines to the First Major Patch have depressed the momentum of the franchise.