The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Dvalin]

The fact that Danath becomes yet another blind follower of Anduin's teachings and says stuff like "the Sons of Lothar promote tolerance" is bizarre and completely out of character for him. I bet there was a lot of tolerance at the orcish internment camps when he was an overseer.

And when exactly did the Sons of Lothar promote tolerance? When Alleria wanted to exterminate all orcs as vermin? Or when Turalyon had the epiphany that orcs weren't from Azeroth, so it was okay to slaughter them? Or when Danath wanted to kill as many "greenskins" as possible because of what they did to his "boys"?

To be fair, that's like more than 30 years ago. People change, as the landscape has changed drastically. The Sons of Lothar weren't genocidal maniacs, either. They had been through a lot in Outland, also allying with other forces, out of necessity. These survivalist instincts are kept, instead of hatred. Which is fine.

[Super Dickmann]

The fact that Danath becomes yet another blind follower of Anduin's teachings and says stuff like "the Sons of Lothar promote tolerance" is bizarre and completely out of character for him. I bet there was a lot of tolerance at the orcish internment camps when he was an overseer.

And when exactly did the Sons of Lothar promote tolerance? When Alleria wanted to exterminate all orcs as vermin? Or when Turalyon had the epiphany that orcs weren't from Azeroth, so it was okay to slaughter them? Or when Danath wanted to kill as many "greenskins" as possible because of what they did to his "boys"?

Something to be said that notwithstanding how Alleria's strong pro-Alliance position hasn't come up since she tried to get Bob to defect, the last appearance in the Highlands was her and Turalyon lobotimizing passers-by to interrogate them on Sylvanas's location, which you'd think would put a dent on race relations. Geya'rah does stand out in so far as obviously the TWW intro wasn't written with the short story in mind, so she and Turalyon still stab at each other there, only for Danath to have apparently implemented an extreme tolerance policy in the interim.

Nevermind that though, the coalition itself gets me as being clearly strung together out of every tertiary faction left-over regardless of how well they fit.

Stromgarde troops? Makes sense.
Syndicate? They're a bordering kingdom and are bandits, so no moral issue, could be part of a reclamation? Fair enough I suppose.
Scarlet Crusade? Well, this has nothing to do with Lordaeronian nationalism, the actual borders of the place, fighting undead, or the Light, but I guess they're approximately in some nearby location and have the same enemies.
Defias? From the other end of the world? Who prominently featured non-humans in every incarnation? Who're primarily motivated respectively by a union turned mafia and then food riots in a completely different kingdom? Travelling cross-country to participate in a race war on behalf of a noble?

I guess they all wear red. But that they're opposed to Faerin for being a half-elf means they're also not setting up any Arathi Empire plot and are more just there as a strawman for world peace. Which is still more faction content than the last two expansions.

[Joshuaj]

We know who Elune is. Why are we overcomplicating her existence?

[Joshuaj]

Tell me, then.

A Life Goddess.

[Dvalin]

Tell me, then.

She's on par with the Eternal Ones; Directly created by the First Ones, like the Titans (Pantheon of Order) and the other Eternal Ones (Pantheon of Death). That's the reason why the Winter Queen calls Elune her 'sister'. She's presumably the opposite of the Pantheon of Death, (part of) the Pantheon of Life. She also had ties with Eonar, with the Elun'ahir story. The Old Gods are not a 'pantheon', but slightly weaker. Parasites called upon by the Void to infect planets. This is also what Xal'atath is alluding to in the newest cutscene.

[bruxx]

Ah yes, Elune the Life aligned goddess empowering her followers with light, and lately, suspiciously voidy "night warrior" powers

[Dvalin]

Ah yes, Elune the Life aligned goddess empowering her followers with light, and lately, suspiciously voidy "night warrior" powers

Cosmic powers don't seem to always be limited to one lore of magic. Newest lore implicates a lot of interactivity between all kinds of powers.

She's tied to the Moon, so that could be a reason. There are still plenty of mysteries left surround Elune, but the things I stated earlier are the newest takes on her and are actually mentioned in-game or in other sources.

[Lahis]

She's on par with the Eternal Ones; Directly created by the First Ones, like the Titans (Pantheon of Order) and the other Eternal Ones (Pantheon of Death). That's the reason why the Winter Queen calls Elune her 'sister'. She's presumably the opposite of the Pantheon of Death, (part of) the Pantheon of Life. She also had ties with Eonar, with the Elun'ahir story. The Old Gods are not a 'pantheon', but slightly weaker. Parasites called upon by the Void to infect planets. This is also what Xal'atath is alluding to in the newest cutscene.

Old Gods are somewhere between Titan Keepers and the cosmic Pantheons.

Titans could easily one shot all of the Old Gods, but chose not to because at their current state of infection that would have destroyed the planet too. So they created the Keepers who needed vast armies of Titanforged to win the war and imprison the Old Gods.

Old Gods are much stronger than Keepers, but much weaker than Pantheons. Elune is on Pantheon level.

- - - Updated - - -

Ah yes, Elune the Life aligned goddess empowering her followers with light, and lately, suspiciously voidy "night warrior" powers

And Eonar is part of Order Pantheon and yet she still associates with Life powers.
Winter Queen is part of Death Pantheon, but she has very strong ties to Life also.

Pantheons represent their corner of the cosmic hexagon, but are not tied to use only its power. Elune is part of Life Pantheon, but she could represent Light/Void and even Death in it. (Death because she and Winter Queen facilitate the cycle of Rebirth for demigods).

[Ersula]

Ah yes. The moon-goddess who wields powers of Light and Shadow, and is at least symbolically represented by a moon. Of course she's the sister of a... death robot.

Are we disputing things the game directly tells us now, unambiguously?

[Dvalin]

Ah yes. The moon-goddess who wields powers of Light and Shadow, and is at least symbolically represented by a moon. Of course she's the sister of a... death robot.

??? Yes, she is?

Just watch the Winter Queen cinematic from Shadowlands. All Pantheons were created by the First Ones. I also wouldn't call them robots, per se. That's not really doing them justice, even though their prototypes were much more rudimentary and fundamental in nature.

[rainhard]

On Ven'ari being ethereal, not sure how it will work since brokers seemed pretty intergrated in the Shadowlands as dealer's type of afterlife, perhaps she was ethereal that died and became a broker, if they all were ethereal it would be pretty weird for the necrolords to allow so much mendling.

[Dvalin]

I'm not disputing the cinematic where the WQ calls Elune her sister. That would be silly.

I'm disputing the fact that some people jump from that to the assertion that therefore Elune must be a Goddess of Life.

Because that's way too early to tell.

- - - Updated - - -

As I'm sure everybody understands, you can be "sisters" in lots of ways. Blood, love, fellowship, etc.

But there's one way you can't be sisters. You can't be biological sister to a robot.

Elune gifted a branch of G'Hanir to Eonar. She also seems to be the polar opposite of the Winter Queen, hence why she called her 'sister' (indeed in the not-literal sense of the word). The Winter Queen calls Ysera 'her sister's pet', and the Emerald Dream has huge ties to Elune, as well. Presumably the 'un-ordered parts', specifically. As the ordered parts have ties with Eonar, too. I already covered the 'robot' part in my earlier post.

I mean, this isn't at all hard to see.

Also:
Shandris Feathermoon says: It is good to see you whole again, Minn'do. I had feared you might be forever lost.
Tyrande Whisperwind says: Ever since Darkshore, rage has swelled inside me. A tide under which I seemed destined to drown. It was not until I heard Elune's voice that I recognized the grief buried beneath my anger. Sorrow intertwined with a deep sense of betrayal.
Shandris Feathermoon says: When Teldrassil burned, I could not understand why the goddess did not intervene. Why she would allow so many to be lost. But I did not know of Ardenweald. Of the duty and purpose that awaited the souls of our people. At least... before the Maw.
Tyrande Whisperwind says: Perhaps we can never truly know the ways of the gods, my daughter. But I believe Elune made a choice to aid her sister. Not to cause us sorrow.
Shandris Feathermoon says: The Winter Queen faced hard choices as well. She and Mother Moon are bound together in an eternal cycle. One of death and rebirth.
Tyrande Whisperwind says: A cycle the kaldorei must now rejoin. No more looking to the past. It is time to embrace our future.

And:
The Primus turns around to address the player.
The Primus says: The Winter Queen is bound to her counterpart in the realms of Life. Together, they embody the balance of the great cycle.
The Primus says: Through sorrow and understanding, the night fae sigil has been reborn. And perhaps their kinship as well.
He turns back around to his regular position.

[Samin]

Ah yes, Elune the Life aligned goddess empowering her followers with light, and lately, suspiciously voidy "night warrior" powers

You need some order (structure, think DNA) and some chaos (growth, mutation/evolution) for Life.

Now while Order and Chaos (Fel) may seem like different cosmic powers, these aspects are also present in Light and Void (endless possibilities, change).

[Ersula]

I'm disputing the fact that some people jump from that to the assertion that therefore Elune must be a Goddess of Life.

The Shadowlands lorebook directly states Elune is in the Pantheon of Life.

Like the Titans & Eternal ones, she probably has her own elemental "flavoring," but you wanting to say Elune is secretly an old god based on nothing, you're going to get a lot of pushback.

[Sondrelk]

On Ven'ari being ethereal, not sure how it will work since brokers seemed pretty intergrated in the Shadowlands as dealer's type of afterlife, perhaps she was ethereal that died and became a broker, if they all were ethereal it would be pretty weird for the necrolords to allow so much mendling.

Honestly, I think they should just roll with it. The brokers were already Ethereals-at-home anyways. And the only thing you really lose with this reveal is changing the backstory from mercantile afterlife to dead Ethereals. And even then, there is nothing stopping Brokers from having existed prior to K'aresh exploding.

[Truthlol]

Here is my updated War Within release calendar based on the set prededence. It is important to note that during Dragonflight, patches started dragging on for a bit during the second half of the expansion, sometimes lasting 9 or even 10 weeks instead of the more usual 8 weeks. So it is possible the same might happen this time around as well.

Either way, here goes:

• April 22nd - 11.1.5 released. [Correct.]
• April 30th - 11.1.7 announced. [Correct, albeit with the small staggered announcement they did.]
• June 17th - 11.1.7 released AND Turbulent Timeways begins.
• June 25th - 11.2 announced.
• August 5th - Turbulent Timeways ends.
• August 12th - S2 ends AND 11.2 released.
• August 19th - S3 begins AND Midnight announced.
• August 20th - 11.2.5 announced (although it is quite possible they decide to do it on the 19th while they announce Midnight).
• October 7th - 11.2.5 released.
• October 15th - 11.2.7 announced (unless they did this at Gamescom too).
• December 2nd - 11.2.7 released.
• January 27th - S3 ends and whatever becomes the filler until pre-patch takes place for a few weeks from this date.

But yeah, this schedule can easily shift by 1-4 weeks or so in either direction.

i think the 11.1.7 patch will come out before turbulent timeways is live, there doesn't seem to be a precedent of them releasing together so likely a release date of june 3/4 or june 10/11 with 11.2 being announced and ptr being up that week. im not sure if it will matter but the xbox games showcase is scheduled for june 8th so its possible that 11.2 is being announced the week of 3/4 so they can show a trailer there.

they have been pretty consistent with the patches being released as turbulent timeways ends so likely a 11.2 release date for august 5/6 and season starting august 12/13.

i think they will not announce midnight in either of those weeks as they will not want to overshadow the release of a new patch or new season start with midnight news.

[Dvalin]

Okay, so first of all I'm always going to encourage speculation.

But this is called cherry picking. You've chosen the evidence that you prefer while ignoring the rest.

I'm not saying these quotes about Elune aren't real. I played Shadowlands too.

But what I am saying is that these are just some of the pieces of evidence that let us speculate on the true identity of Elune.

We also have quotes from Khadgar and Xal'atath, artifacts like the Tear of Elune, the Night Warrior, and much else.

Shadowlands is also known for being misleading about the true identity of people. Remember learning about how underwhelming a character the Arbiter really was, or Zovaal for that matter?

Flimsy lore, at best.

Latest bits from the Explorer books and Chronicles part 4 have basically altered the bit about Elune's connection to the Naaru, while the devs have gone all-out on the connection to the Pantheon of Life, instead. There's also just too much new lore out there basically confirming Elune as being a part of the Pantheon of Life. The devs have been steadily showing us how their latest iteration of the cosmic forces works, this is a result of that.

We can't call it cherrypicking if relatively recent books, cinematics, in-game lore bits as well as dialogues all mention the same thing. This isn't them being intentionally vague, but actually wanting us to be informed about the latest cosmological setup and how past and future things are working and intertwined.

[Dvalin]

Nightwarrior lore is literally Shadowlands era. So Elune's connection to the cosmos is still very much alive. Not to mention the Elune's Chosen talent tree, which is about stars and the celestial, not Life.

Look I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, I'm very open minded on Elune's origins. I just think it's impossible to tell for certain at this point.

As such, all options are on the table.

That doesn't even conflict her being a part of the Pantheon of Life. It just shows us some of her (moon-related) powers. Just like Eonar has powers over Life.

[Super Dickmann]

Honestly, I think they should just roll with it. The brokers were already Ethereals-at-home anyways. And the only thing you really lose with this reveal is changing the backstory from mercantile afterlife to dead Ethereals. And even then, there is nothing stopping Brokers from having existed prior to K'aresh exploding.

In so far as Tazavesh wasn't an afterlife but a trading post and Brokers were described as natives, like the various fae and so on, rather than moved on souls, it's only the native part that is being retconned, which in so far as they were ethereals in every other aspect anyway isn't much of a leap.

[Nize]

i think the 11.1.7 patch will come out before turbulent timeways is live, there doesn't seem to be a precedent of them releasing together so likely a release date of june 3/4 or june 10/11 with 11.2 being announced and ptr being up that week. im not sure if it will matter but the xbox games showcase is scheduled for june 8th so its possible that 11.2 is being announced the week of 3/4 so they can show a trailer there.

they have been pretty consistent with the patches being released as turbulent timeways ends so likely a 11.2 release date for august 5/6 and season starting august 12/13.

i think they will not announce midnight in either of those weeks as they will not want to overshadow the release of a new patch or new season start with midnight news.

So you're thinking they've been consistent though at the same time believe that the next patch isn't going to follow the usual 8 week cadence?