The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Cheezits]

Conceptually I don't think there's anything wrong that the HOD/Lich King toolkit was installed by a rogue death god. I always thought the Lich King tie to the Burning Legion was flimsy- as it always was in old lore, almost every bad thing was tied to demons in one way or another.

However I think having him be behind Sargeras's fall to madness is insane. Way too much baggage. They can fix this by having the KING DREADLORD be behind it, for his own reasons. It would especially make sense if the idea was that he causes this Titan to go crazy and assemble a demon army for him to inherit once he falls.

And both of their motivations would make sense if the Shadowlands is a scam and they are rebelling. It would be ironic if the reason for the biggest tragedy among the Titans (Sargeras's turn) was directly caused by two of their slave robots taking revenge.

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The same shit is true of the Legion. People pretend that Zovaal somehow controlled the Legion and made Sargeras do all the Sargeras things. All Zovaal did, via Denathrius, was take advantage of an opportunity to put spies into the Legion's command structure and then mislead the Legion into doing a couple things that, beneath the surface, also benefited Death.

The Nathrezim spy book from launch SL directly states that they intentionally corrupted Sargeras.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Brokers have clearly been etherals the whole time, it's exciting tho between this explicit confirmation and the data mines ethereal stuff the aesthetic of k'aresh is coming together way more as "fantasy silk road" mixing china, india and Arabia/Persian with different groups

Also showing etherals (like elves) are highly mutable my different forces

Maybe we'll learn locus walker is trying to recreate the curse of flesh to allow etherals to reclaim their original form?!

Would be pretty sweet. Looking forward to seeing more K'aresh lore in general. Shame it's not getting its own expansion, though.

[Nightshade711]

Speaking of them being "robots", we saw them being created using some kind of massive special souls. Always seemed natural to me to assume that they were dead Worldsouls, and Argus ending up with them when he died fits that. But relying on near-immortal souls dying makes no sense if you can create them (which the First Ones should be capable of if they truly created everything, including Worldsouls, in the first place). Especially given that every instance of worlds dying that we're aware of involved the Legion. If Sargeras hadn't betrayed Order, then where would they have been getting those souls from?

I personally don’t think they’re dead world souls tbh.
If I remember correctly the only reason Argus went to the Shadowlands was because he was so heavily infused with death magic. (Files in Legion called him a “Death Titan” too).
But even that as a weak newborn Titan his soul was so strong its entry into the Shadowlands broke the machine of death - he wasn’t supposed to be there.

Though I am curious to what happens to the world souls when they die. The Titans themselves (seemingly) reform after a while, but what about the souls of K’aresh or the other world Sargeras cleaved pre-fall?

[Xilurm]

How was it shat on? He only appeared once and wasn't even a soul...

Unless you think Arthas deserved some cool moment in the Afterlife, which I think is silly considering he was one of the most evil mfs ever.

Not sure what him being evil has to do with having a cool moment, but either way he should've had A moment, and not whatever he got. I mean come on, Jaina didn't even say a single thing during that cutscene.

[Hitei]

The Nathrezim spy book from launch SL directly states that they intentionally corrupted Sargeras.

It states that they intentionally helped oppose the Titans with the demonic forces knowing that disorder was a weakpoint they'd trip over, and thinking they could cause internal strife. Sargeras wasn't "corrupted" like that. The Dreadlords he interrogated just explained, truthfully, the reality of the Void and then when he freaked out, they played into that fear so that he'd not question their loyalties.

None of this was omg 58D chess. Like most things Zovaal just saw opportunities and took advantage of them, or stuck people under his influence in places hoping it might eventually be useful for something in his actual plan, which was building enough souljuice power to breach the Maw, getting the keys to ZM, and re-writing reality.

He was an effective spymaster and personnel recruiter, not the secret puppetmaster of the universe.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Detest the old gods being portrayed sitting around in a room together and doing baddie banter with Xal'atath. If the old gods' mystique has already been utterly trashed by Chronicles and ensuing lore, seeing N'Zoth getting strung along by Xal'atath and participating in councils has beaten its corpse into a bloody smear.

[Super Dickmann]

Detest the old gods being portrayed sitting around in a room together and doing baddie banter with Xal'atath. If the old gods' mystique has already been utterly trashed by Chronicles and ensuing lore, seeing N'Zoth getting strung along by Xal'atath and participating in councils has beaten its corpse into a bloody smear.

"This could have been an e-mail, Harbinger." The innumerable tongues seethed, tendrils swatting lightly as they struggled with formatting the fell excel table. "Damn." N'zoth thought. "If I can't get this quarterly blood sacrifice looking good, Invalidus's annual review will really sting."

[Joshuaj]

The thing is that we still don't know his motivation for helping Zovaal. The finale cinematic paints him in a very odd light- it almost looks like he's happy that Zovaal is getting fired. I wouldn't be surprised if they reveal he was the Ideas Guy behind most of Zovaal's plans and whispered them to him while he was in the Maw.

It could be rebelling against FOs and if they are titans that would cause him and Iridikron to have very similar motivations.

Simple. He sees Zovaal as the rightful top lord of Death (which he was...), and he wants Death to be the dominant force in the cosmos.

[Nymrohd]

You know, if they reveal that Primus is a scab/liar/Titan agent, that would explain why the Lich Margrave was the one who helped the Forsaken and not him. Maybe she'll take over if he goes rogue?

Does anyone else in the pantheon even talk about the First Ones or was it just him?

A cool alternative would be the First Ones truly existing and having created the Zereths and the entire universe. But the Sepulcher and the "Pantheon of Death" are Titan intervention. They would hijack the mythology of the First Ones and appropriate their tech. So the Shadowlands and the Eternals would be a Titan scam but the idea of the First Ones and evidence of them would actually exist because they did exist, they are just nowhere to be found. It's aggressive and appropriative syncretism.

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Detest the old gods being portrayed sitting around in a room together and doing baddie banter with Xal'atath. If the old gods' mystique has already been utterly trashed by Chronicles and ensuing lore, seeing N'Zoth getting strung along by Xal'atath and participating in councils has beaten its corpse into a bloody smear.

That was so silly. Meanwhile they are all supposed to be mountain sized.

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Conceptually I don't think there's anything wrong that the HOD/Lich King toolkit was installed by a rogue death god. I always thought the Lich King tie to the Burning Legion was flimsy- as it always was in old lore, almost every bad thing was tied to demons in one way or another.

However I think having him be behind Sargeras's fall to madness is insane. Way too much baggage. They can fix this by having the KING DREADLORD be behind it, for his own reasons. It would especially make sense if the idea was that he causes this Titan to go crazy and assemble a demon army for him to inherit once he falls.

And both of their motivations would make sense if the Shadowlands is a scam and they are rebelling. It would be ironic if the reason for the biggest tragedy among the Titans (Sargeras's turn) was directly caused by two of their slave robots taking revenge.

It all works so much better the moment you interpret Zovaal as not someone with plans within plans but rather someone eternally watching from the sidelines trying to find the right opportunity.

[Joshuaj]

A cool alternative would be the First Ones truly existing and having created the Zereths and the entire universe. But the Sepulcher and the "Pantheon of Death" are Titan intervention. They would hijack the mythology of the First Ones and appropriate their tech. So the Shadowlands and the Eternals would be a Titan scam but the idea of the First Ones and evidence of them would actually exist because they did exist, they are just nowhere to be found. It's aggressive and appropriative syncretism.

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That was so silly. Meanwhile they are all supposed to be mountain sized.

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It all works so much better the moment you interpret Zovaal as not someone with plans within plans but rather someone eternally watching from the sidelines trying to find the right opportunity.

Why do y'all want the Shadowlands to be some scam? Seriously, what do y'all gain from this?

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Detest the old gods being portrayed sitting around in a room together and doing baddie banter with Xal'atath. If the old gods' mystique has already been utterly trashed by Chronicles and ensuing lore, seeing N'Zoth getting strung along by Xal'atath and participating in councils has beaten its corpse into a bloody smear.

...The Old Gods are being shown VIA void projections. N'Zoth is the only one there with a real body, and even then, I'm pretty sure they're at Ny'alotha, meaning N'Zoth has all the power there. He can likely teleport his head wherever in his city.

[Khaza-R]

It all works so much better the moment you interpret Zovaal as not someone with plans within plans but rather someone eternally watching from the sidelines trying to find the right opportunity.

Making shit slightly more palatable unfortunately still doesn't change what it is.

I'll also just add, he himself definitely doesn't think he's an opportunist. So he's either just batshit delulu or a liar.

[Cheezits]

I think it's interesting that they showed Xal being imprisoned but not WHY she was imprisoned.

How are we going to see that? A cinematic? Book?

[Zardas]

Why do y'all want the Shadowlands to be some scam? Seriously, what do y'all gain from this?

Yeah, that's pretty weird. There is a very simple setup with the First Ones as creator of the sixth pantheons, back up by pretty much everything we've seen ingame ans elsewhere. What's the point of theorizing far-fetched conspiracies where it was actually Titans (or whatever else) all along ?

I think it's interesting that they showed Xal being imprisoned but not WHY she was imprisoned.

How are we going to see that? A cinematic? Book?

I'm calling it : the four old gods imprisonned her because they were affraid of the bad report she would do to the Void Lords about them.

[Cheezits]

I'm calling it : the four old gods imprisonned her because they were affraid of the bad report she would do to the Void Lords about them.

I think that's likely, but why not just say it there? It feels weird. Are we going to get a flashback from her POV?

[AOL Instant Messenger]

...The Old Gods are being shown VIA void projections. N'Zoth is the only one there with a real body, and even then, I'm pretty sure they're at Ny'alotha, meaning N'Zoth has all the power there. He can likely teleport his head wherever in his city.

The inscrutable alien beings just watched the prequel trilogy that one time and thought the hologram at the council meeting was cool. It wasn't necessary for telepathic beings at the height of their power, but they really just thought it would look way cooler if a bunch of zits were standing around a voidwraith model.

[Nibelheimy]

God this would have been a perfect way to fix SL.

Make all of it fake and sylvanas wanted to get rid of the Titan prison of a false after life and the jailer won her over with proof that it was all a scam. We stop the jailer but also just flat out destroy the shadowlands freeing all the souls to go to a true unknown afterlife.

It would have fixed all the problems of undermining all the various cultures afterlife’s by leaving them up in the air after the fake ones were destroyed and would have been great build up to the titans being bad and not the non sense anti vaxx dragons.

Nail on the head right here. Exactly what I've been harping on about since the end of Shadow lands.

I was right about ethereals/brokers and happy to see a buff in legacy drop rates like I've been asking for.

I by no means suggest this new development was always the plan. I'm just happy to see they're willing to make changes and improve it.

Pull the trigger. Aman'thul created the shadowlands, we know the primus had a friend who plays with time, all of the threads are there. Time to fix their biggest mistake.

[milkmustache]

Nail on the head right here. Exactly what I've been harping on about since the end of Shadow lands.

I was right about ethereals/brokers and happy to see a buff in legacy drop rates like I've been asking for.

I by no means suggest this new development was always the plan. I'm just happy to see they're willing to make changes and improve it.

Pull the trigger. Aman'thul created the shadowlands, we know the primus had a friend who plays with time, all of the threads are there. Time to fix their biggest mistake.

Agreed. There's no way it could've been the plan because Shadowlands was just Danuser thinking "I can write all this stuff but cooler" and inserting a million OC's. Whoever suggested Shadowlands as we know it being the Death realm counterpart to the Emerald Dream (IE, Titans absorbed a part of it and ordered it) has the perfect solution.

[Joshuaj]

The inscrutable alien beings just watched the prequel trilogy that one time and thought the hologram at the council meeting was cool. It wasn't necessary for telepathic beings at the height of their power, but they really just thought it would look way cooler if a bunch of zits were standing around a voidwraith model.

I mean, you said it yourself, it was done like this VIA rule of cool. Seeing the Old Gods together is cool.

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Funny enough, they look like a pantheon that way

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Nail on the head right here. Exactly what I've been harping on about since the end of Shadow lands.

I was right about ethereals/brokers and happy to see a buff in legacy drop rates like I've been asking for.

I by no means suggest this new development was always the plan. I'm just happy to see they're willing to make changes and improve it.

Pull the trigger. Aman'thul created the shadowlands, we know the primus had a friend who plays with time, all of the threads are there. Time to fix their biggest mistake.

The Ethereal and Broker connection is fine, but I don't want Aman'Thul to make the Shadowlands. You don't seem to understand how many more plotholes would be made if this was done...

[Eldryth]

Pull the trigger. Aman'thul created the shadowlands, we know the primus had a friend who plays with time, all of the threads are there. Time to fix their biggest mistake.

It's plausible, and if they go this route, we should know soon enough, since it'd surely be part of the big upcoming Titan conspiracy expansion. And that'd make the Shadowlands actually involved in the big climax to the whole story so far.


Personally, I don't care so much about whether it's fake in particular, so long as they fix the parts that conflict with pre-existing lore (Elune being the big one) and either ignore the rest (like before Shadowlands) or do something more interesting with it than shallow power creep that's come from it so far. And don't introduce even more Pantheons that are just like the Titans, do something more distinct than six homogenous factions.

[Joshuaj]

Agreed. There's no way it could've been the plan because Shadowlands was just Danuser thinking "I can write all this stuff but cooler" and inserting a million OC's. Whoever suggested Shadowlands as we know it being the Death realm counterpart to the Emerald Dream (IE, Titans absorbed a part of it and ordered it) has the perfect solution.

The Dream and Ardenweald are sister realms. The Titans used a part of the Dream for their blueprints on Azeroth.

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It's plausible, and if they go this route, we should know soon enough, since it'd surely be part of the big upcoming Titan conspiracy expansion. And that'd make the Shadowlands actually involved in the big climax to the whole story so far.


Personally, I don't care so much about whether it's fake in particular, so long as they fix the parts that conflict with pre-existing lore (Elune being the big one) and either ignore the rest (like before Shadowlands) or do something more interesting with it than shallow power creep that's come from it so far. And don't introduce even more Pantheons that are just like the Titans, do something more distinct than six homogenous factions.

How does Elune's stuff in SL conflict with existing lore?

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Also, the Shadowlands can be involved in the story without having to force some Titan narrative. SL and DF are clear examples of that.

But nooooo, heaven forbid WoW focuses on anything else outside of the Titans...