The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nightshade711]

The real answer is that Elune is a void lord.
The void has created life before after all.

[Dracullus]

How would one explain the Light and Shadow cycle it goes through then? I don't think I've seen anything related to Azeroth thus-far that implied it made crystals which can go through a Naaru-esc cycle.

That's separate question. Most obvious answer is both Light and Void trying to influence Azeroth right and Beledar showing it to us like antenna.

But that's beside the point, you have answer literally spelled out to you, one detail we don't know doesn't change that.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Ysera turned to a constellation, yes. But reminder that the Titans can become constellations as well. Are they light entities as a result? No? Okay then lol.

As I said Elune was light and Arcane based with all the star stuff being the arcane side, and yes the titans who also turn into stars are arcane based.

[Joshuaj]

As I said Elune was light and Arcane based with all the star stuff being the arcane side, and yes the titans who also turn into stars are arcane based.

Then that just means Elune is a Life entity with connections to the Light, the Arcane, and the Shadow.

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That's separate question. Most obvious answer is both Light and Void trying to influence Azeroth right and Beledar showing it to us like antenna.

But that's beside the point, you have answer literally spelled out to you, one detail we don't know doesn't change that.

So, you think the Light and/or the Void tried to take control of a worldsoul crystal?

Because that's what I believe.

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The real answer is that Elune is a void lord.
The void has created life before after all.

Oh brother...

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At least this theory ain't nearly as bad as the "First Ones are trapped within the Void" nonsense.

[Joshuaj]

Speaking of the idea that the First Ones are the Titans (hate this theory, but I'll argue devils advocate cause why not?), a good way to utilize this theory is the fact that we haven't seen the First Ones at all yet. They haven't been shown at Zereth Mortis or anything.

Though, my very obvious counter to this theory is this: They're somewhere outside of the design altogether.

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I still very much doubt the Shadowlands sources, now that Danuser is out and Metzen is back.

Think about it. Metzen basically created most of the Warcraft mythos (not single-handedly but he was there in the early days and he was always in a leadership position for the creative bits). He must have a million old notes, sketches and ideas that he thought about back in the way.

"This is how this connects to that, and this is how this thing will end up playing out once this other thing over here is over. And this person will end up doing his, before that person does that."

Then Danuser comes in and almost does a 180 on just about everything over a couple of years.

The realm of death worlds differently than originally imagined.
There was a "Super Lich King" behind a ton of events on Azeroth.
The "Mega Titans" actually created everything, not the Titans.
Azeroth isn't a Titan anymore, she's a "captive" who should be free to do what she wants in life.

Like, imagine coming back to all of that.

No freaking wonder he decided War Within had to turn into a trilogy instead, so he could right this ship.

I don't think we can outright ignore what happened in Shadowlands, but I don't think we should treat it as the resolution of the mystery that is Elune, either.

Metzen was clearly exploring some ideas up till and including Legion, before new ideas on her origins started to appear. So right now it is likely we will go back to some of those earlier ideas.

Metzen can't just retcon things past expansions established, like literally he can't.

The last time he changed something in the past lore, he literally had to apologize for it.

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Also, quick reminder that Blizzard kinda knew we'd enter the Shadowlands at some point after Wrath, but no-one knew the exact details of everything til SL started it's development.

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So, no, I doubt Metzen had some pre-established "original Shadowlands" draft. That's a silly notion.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Then that just means Elune is a Life entity with connections to the Light, the Arcane, and the Shadow.

My point was about what Elune was under Metzen and how we may see Danuser idea of her being life based thrown out to return to that.

under Metzen her main life link was just shagging a deer while pretty much every thing else about her was light/arcane based.

[Nightshade711]

You know that's not true.

What did Danuser do to Metzen's lore in Shadowlands? He changed it.

Obviously Metzen can change things again.

I do think Metzen is mindful about stepping on toes, and he seemingly has acknowledged that he came back to a different team with lots of creative thinking going on. I don't think he wants to just upend that and be some type of "lore dictator". So I doubt the game just resets back to Legion.

But, I don't see why we should treat Shadowlands as sacred when nothing before it has been.

Not a whole lot of the SL lore has been really put into anything beyond what could be seen as an unreliable narrator.

Wouldn’t really be a full retcon if we say the Primus & Brokers were wrong about the First Ones & Elune.

[Dracullus]

So, you think the Light and/or the Void tried to take control of a worldsoul crystal?

Not crystal, core itself. As I said, I think crystal show us what is happening to world soul in real time.

[Joshuaj]

"I don't think we can outright ignore what happened in Shadowlands, but I don't think we should treat it as the resolution of the mystery that is Elune, either."

Sure? Counterpoint: https://www.wowhead.com/item=208649/...e-of-the-dream

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Not crystal, core itself. As I said, I think crystal show us what is happening to world soul in real time.

Interesting, but how would that work? How would the Light have a direct influence on the worldsoul?

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Not a whole lot of the SL lore has been really put into anything beyond what could be seen as an unreliable narrator.

Wouldn’t really be a full retcon if we say the Primus & Brokers were wrong about the First Ones & Elune.

Counterargument: The Winter Queen and Elune stuff, as well as the stuff regarding the Dream and Ardenweald, transcends beyond mere "oh yeah, the Primus talked about it like this".

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Similar thing regarding the First Ones. We literally saw the cosmic forces in their most primal state at the heart of the Sepulcher.

[Nightshade711]

Counterargument: The Winter Queen and Elune stuff, as well as the stuff regarding the Dream and Ardenweald, transcends beyond mere "oh yeah, the Primus talked about it like this".

I mean if we can’t trust the Chronicle books, which were at the time were intended on being the definitive lore book due to an unreliable narrator, why should we trust people just saying stuff.

Besides it’s never confirmed Elune is a life goddess. Hinted at sure, it’s also hinted she’s a light goddess.

[Joshuaj]

I mean if we can’t trust the Chronicle books, which were at the time were intended on being the definitive lore book due to an unreliable narrator, why should we trust people just saying stuff.

Besides it’s never confirmed Elune is a life goddess. Hinted at sure, it’s also hinted she’s a light goddess.

There is a difference between multiple sources directly telling us and SHOWING us that Elune is a Life Goddess, and there being a few sources telling us and somewhat showing us that Elune is a Light Goddess.

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Also, you CAN trust the Chronicle books still. The Chronicle mythos isn't wrong, it's just a bit exaggerated.

[Nightshade711]

There is a difference between multiple sources directly telling us and SHOWING us that Elune is a Life Goddess, and there being a few sources telling us and somewhat showing us that Elune is a Light Goddess.

“Hey if my theory is right Elune created Xe’ra, the prime Naaru. If that’s true the Tears of Elune would be able to open Light’s Heart, which only a being of Xe’ras lineage is able to do!”
>The tears of Elune open Light’s Heart.

>25,000+ year old Draenei who has spent a majority of his life with the light says Elune’s powers matched his experiences with powerful Naaru

Could also be she’s as Xal’atath said, an Upstart Goddess. Could be possible she’s taking powers from multiple cosmic forces.
Perhaps she’s inspired by the myths of the First Ones and is trying to become one.

[huth]

“Hey if my theory is right Elune created Xe’ra, the prime Naaru. If that’s true the Tears of Elune would be able to open Light’s Heart, which only a being of Xe’ras lineage is able to do!”
>The tears of Elune open Light’s Heart.

>25,000+ year old Draenei who has spent a majority of his life with the light says Elune’s powers matched his experiences with powerful Naaru

Could also be she’s as Xal’atath said, an Upstart Goddess. Could be possible she’s taking powers from multiple cosmic forces.
Perhaps she’s inspired by the myths of the First Ones and is trying to become one.

Notice all the "if"'s in that. That was ultimately just him guessing. It could have been something entirely different that neither of us were aware of.

Meanwhile, we directly witnessed Winter Queen and Elune interacting and referring to each other as relatives. That counts a tad bit more than some third hand guessing.

[Khaza-R]

Pretty hard to repair the damage to the Elune storyline in SL without major revisions and changes. I don't think simply handwaving the lore away as Primus and WQ were misunderstood works when you literally have Elune speaking through Tyrande.

But that said, if any piece of SL lore deserves to be completely undone its that one.

[Nightshade711]

Notice all the "if"'s in that. That was ultimately just him guessing. It could have been something entirely different that neither of us were aware of.

Meanwhile, we directly witnessed Winter Queen and Elune interacting and referring to each other as relatives. That counts a tad bit more than some third hand guessing.

I mean… the Winter Queen calling her a Sister doesn’t mean anything either way. Perhaps they aren’t literal relatives. There’s a reason why the phrases “they’re like a brother/sister to me” exist.

I’d say directly seeing the Tears of Elune open Light’s Heart (which only something of Xe’ras lineage can do) AND Velen saying Elune’s magic is almost identical to his experiences with a powerful Naaru is worth more as a confirmation than some vague dialogue from SL.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Notice all the "if"'s in that. That was ultimately just him guessing. It could have been something entirely different that neither of us were aware of.

Meanwhile, we directly witnessed Winter Queen and Elune interacting and referring to each other as relatives. That counts a tad bit more than some third hand guessing.

We also just had DF where the incarantes refer to each other as relatives dispute none of them actually being related so that really doesn’t tell us any thing at all.

[Cheezits]

Pretty hard to repair the damage to the Elune storyline in SL without major revisions and changes. I don't think simply handwaving the lore away as Primus and WQ were misunderstood works when you literally have Elune speaking through Tyrande.

But that said, if any piece of SL lore deserves to be completely undone its that one.

"Sister but not really" is not a groundbreaking retcon. Same as the Sons of Lothar being a symbolic thing.

[Joshuaj]

“Hey if my theory is right Elune created Xe’ra, the prime Naaru. If that’s true the Tears of Elune would be able to open Light’s Heart, which only a being of Xe’ras lineage is able to do!”
>The tears of Elune open Light’s Heart.

>25,000+ year old Draenei who has spent a majority of his life with the light says Elune’s powers matched his experiences with powerful Naaru

Could also be she’s as Xal’atath said, an Upstart Goddess. Could be possible she’s taking powers from multiple cosmic forces.
Perhaps she’s inspired by the myths of the First Ones and is trying to become one.

I think it's more-so just that Elune likely reaches beyond her station a ton.

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Xal'atath calls the Old Gods AND the Naaru her "brethren".

Malorne and Elune has been called lovers. I'll just quickly point out that Malorne is a... stag.

Eonar apparently thought of Elune has her "great love". She also saught refuge on a planet called Elunaria.

Elune called the Kaldorei her "favored children".

It is not unthinkable that Elune simply forms strong bonds and alliances with other powerful entities, and that she is so charming and alluring that some of them fall head over heels in love with her, or simply think of her at the greatest thing ever.

It's also possible a lot of these relationships are of a sort of divine nature, not a physical one.

Since the Winter Queen is effectively a robot, it is technically impossible for them to be blood relatives. So we really need to consider all of the above for their relationship.

Also because the WQ is a robot, we can't rule out a scenario where, perhaps, the spirit of another great being was inserted into her physical form. Like Freya, she might be a custodian of sorts, a watcher of nature who serves a higher power.

Lastly, you can't keep ignoring all of her arcane/light-based powers. You say that she's a goddess of Life who uses powers from other sources. But why is she seemingly exclusively doing that? Why don't trees sprout from the ground where she walks, and why doesn't she create world trees out of thin air?

Elune and the Winter Queen are sisters in that they're counterparts. Sisters in a divine sense is different from being sisters in a mortal sense.

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"Why don't trees sprout from the ground where she walks, and why doesn't she create world trees out of thin air?"

We literally haven't seen Elune walk yet. Also, regarding World Trees, did you forget about G'hanir, or the worldseed she and her sister made?

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Also, I get that it's non-canon and whatnot, but there is a LOT of Elune imagery in the Hearthstone Emerald Dream expac.

[Nightshade711]

I think it's more-so just that Elune likely reaches beyond her station a ton.

Quite the reach for her to have created the Prime Naaru if she is a Life Goddess.

Elune and the Winter Queen are sisters in that they're counterparts. Sisters in a divine sense is different from being sisters in a mortal sense.

But if we use that logic then Elune would be an Eternal One and not a life goddess.
The Titans call each other Brother/Sister.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I
Also, I get that it's non-canon and whatnot, but there is a LOT of Elune imagery in the Hearthstone Emerald Dream expac.

And there all priest cards and spells that are arcane based so not helping the life goddess idea.

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I don't think there are any cards in Hearthstone that show Elune, are there?

None that show her it’s all the normal moon and night elf priest stuff.