The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Joshuaj]

"Narrative disaster that DF was"

Lmao I'll bite, what the actual hell was disastrous about it?

[Kiivar86]

If Order Halls do make a return, I hope they spruce up some of them and outright change a few too. And of course they will need to create new ones for the rogues and mages, for obvious reasons (though I recall someone saying they should just set up mages on the beach, which is an amusing image).

The Warrior Order Hall would also be amusing should Odyn eventually become an enemy, I must say.

[Ersula]

"Narrative disaster that DF was"

Lmao I'll bite, what the actual hell was disastrous about it?

I'm not sure what they mean but the longest thread in DF's story was Tyr that basically fizzled out. We brought Tyr back from the dead for him to do nothing whatsoever.

I liked the stuff with the individual dragonflights & getting back their "aspectral powers" but it did feel like a filler episode of a tv show. And they still managed to never clarify what the fuck the dragon aspect powers actually entail: A two decade long storyline obsessed about something they never bother to explain.

That was my one big concern with the worldsoul saga. Most of the time they can't stick the landing, as in giving an expansion a proper ending. Telling us there won't be closure for the next two expansions doesn't necessarily mean The Last Titan's ending will be any good.

[Lady Atia]

I believe that both expansions will be very good, my only concern is the story and the narrative. After SL, and the narrative disaster that DF was, it is difficult to trust Blizzard. But TWW is doing a good job for now, so I'm positive.

What I find more interesting is what systems and improvements will Midnight and TLT implement. TLT is too far yet, but just in a few months we will have Midnight reveal ! So obviously we need to speculate about it.

We have Housing, so what else? My bets are:

- Ethereals as a playable race, whether or not K'aresh is 11.2.

- A new Void themed class.

- Account wide secondary professions.

- New customization options for all races.

- Hero Talents have been... I wouldn't say a failure, but, with some exceptions, not very impactful. I very much doubt that they are going to give us new Hero Talents Trees. First they should make the existing ones more noticiable. Probably they will stay as they are, meaning that they will give us another 10 talent points to fully complete our Hero Talent Trees, which hopefully would be heavily redesigned.

- They have confirmed that they are doing something about the new player experience in Midnight, but that it is a long project that will continue in TLT and beyond. This is a super interesting and important point. I don't think that they are going to revamp the initial zones of different races. It wouldn't make sense and they will create and even weirder timeline, as we would have to move to past zones after the initial zones.

Class Order Halls could be the key here. An evergreen system, a place that new and old players alike could share, continuously updated with new cosmetic gear and hopefully spell effects, class challenges, class companions with their respective questlines, and more importantly, class questlines, which would be the new leveling system. These questlines would take us through the major plots and localizations of WoW, while it teach us the different systems of WoW (dungeons with the Follower Dungeon system, raids with the new Story Mode, and leveling Delves). The class questline will mostly be a solo and instanced experience, so that it would not matter if the zones get revamped in the future.

I would put "Dye System for NEW transmog items" on that list. We know they now have the tech thanks to the Housing preview, so why wouldn't they use it for new transmog items aswell.

[Enrif]

If Order Halls do make a return, I hope they spruce up some of them and outright change a few too. And of course they will need to create new ones for the rogues and mages, for obvious reasons (though I recall someone saying they should just set up mages on the beach, which is an amusing image).

The Warrior Order Hall would also be amusing should Odyn eventually become an enemy, I must say.

I think, if they use order halls once more for TLT, they should be all new. No repeats.

And Northrend has quite a good selection of places for most classes to have a new home

• Paladin - Argent Tournament Grounds or any other Argent Crusade area. Could also turn onto the remants of the scarlets like Onslught Harbor
• Death Knight - Any of the ziggurats, the shadow vault or even ICC
• Warrior - Pick any Vrykul village. Uthgarde?
• Hunter - Lodge in Grizzly Hills
• Shaman - I could see them among the Frost Giants or the Frostborne (or both) or in Zul Drak
• Evoker - Wyrmrest
• Druid - World tree in Grizzly Hills among the furbolgs or Ursocs cave
• Rogue - K3 would be a interesting choice i think
• Monk - among the Tuskarr
• Demon Hunter - depending on if illidan returns, either among the storm peak shrines of the keepers, or in an area next to the death knights or warlocks
• Priest - Same as paladin
• Mage - the nexus
• Warlock - Taking a ziggurat if the death knights don't take one

[Dracullus]

Location of order hall isnt biggest issue, although it should be pernament, not expac feature, so spreading into various iconic places would be nice. Most important thing is to give us interesting content and reason to go there.

Legion version had: unique story chapters, AP forge, mission table and few small activities to get secret weapon skin. So after week it was mostly about chores that thankfully dont exist anymore.

So if we want productive discussion, I wouldnt focus on if Rogues should go to sewers or mansion, but what sould be reason to go there.

[Teriz]

Evoker order halls should be in the dragon isles.

[Hitei]

I think, if they use order halls once more for TLT, they should be all new. No repeats.

And Northrend has quite a good selection of places for most classes to have a new home

...does it though? It really just has a good selection of places for DKs and maybe one good place for Evokers, sorta, and then you can just stick other classes random places like you could in any expansion. Half these classes have absolutely nothing to do with Northrend, and the ones that marginally do (Warriors, Druids, Paladins, Mages) are all just massively trading down from their original order halls.

[Darkarath]

"Narrative disaster that DF was"

Lmao I'll bite, what the actual hell was disastrous about it?

- The whole point of 10.0 is activating the Aspects stones to regain their powers. Abandoned plot

- Heavily teased Blue Dragonflight prison in Azure Span. Abandoned plot

- Aberrus' final raid encounter is in a voidy room with huge chains and no character makes a comment about it. Abandoned plot

- Malfurion changes places with Ysera for reasons, supposedly to come with new powers of Death (teased by Danuser) Abandoned plot

- Whole point of the expansion if bringing back Tyr for... Nothing. Abandoned plot

- Iridikron teased as the main baddy of the expansion just to dissapear mid-expansion after an still unexplained connection with the Infinite Dragonflight. Abandoned plot

- The reasons behind the Dracthyr's stasis are not explained in game, but in the book. Abandoned plot

- Vyranoth changing sides in a 10 minute pathetic questline for reasons. Abandoned plot

- This might be a more personal one, but for my, even with the mega-dungeon, the Infinite Dragonflight and Murozond plot was mostly abandoned. Murozond was heavily teased and we just see him 3 seconds and then re-wind time. Abandoned plot

It is very clear IMO that DF story was drastically changed to fit into the WSS, and the consequences were noted in the game experience (even if the Primal Incarnates are very cool).

I would put "Dye System for NEW transmog items" on that list. We know they now have the tech thanks to the Housing preview, so why wouldn't they use it for new transmog items aswell.

Good point. I completely agree

[Joshuaj]

I'm not sure what they mean but the longest thread in DF's story was Tyr that basically fizzled out. We brought Tyr back from the dead for him to do nothing whatsoever.

I liked the stuff with the individual dragonflights & getting back their "aspectral powers" but it did feel like a filler episode of a tv show. And they still managed to never clarify what the fuck the dragon aspect powers actually entail: A two decade long storyline obsessed about something they never bother to explain.

That was my one big concern with the worldsoul saga. Most of the time they can't stick the landing, as in giving an expansion a proper ending. Telling us there won't be closure for the next two expansions doesn't necessarily mean The Last Titan's ending will be any good.

Ever wonder that maybe they brought Tyr back so he could serve a story in The Last Titan?

[Enrif]

...does it though? It really just has a good selection of places for DKs and maybe one good place for Evokers, sorta, and then you can just stick other classes random places like you could in any expansion. Half these classes have absolutely nothing to do with Northrend, and the ones that marginally do (Warriors, Druids, Paladins, Mages) are all just massively trading down from their original order halls.

i think the only classes that struggle with a good place are demon hunter and warlock due to the lack of demon based stuff in northrend. Everyone else as at least 1 solid place. And your choice of Warrior, Druid, Paladins, and Mages have among the best spots. Instead of some golden glowing titan heaven which fits more with paladins, warriors can hang out with actual warriors with the vrykuls of northrend, the most warrior race out there after orcs. Druid can for once call an actual world tree as their home instead of a grove somewhere else. Paladins and Argend Crusade go hand in hand like barely anything else here. The argen tournament grounds would even make sense with their divine steed focus, as they couldn't even ride their new horses in the legion order hall. And mages having the Aspect of Magics home place as their order hall would be the most mage thing, short of using Karazhan.

[Sondrelk]

- The whole point of 10.0 is activating the Aspects stones to regain their powers. Abandoned plot

- Heavily teased Blue Dragonflight prison in Azure Span. Abandoned plot

- Aberrus' final raid encounter is in a voidy room with huge chains and no character makes a comment about it. Abandoned plot

- Malfurion changes places with Ysera for reasons, supposedly to come with new powers of Death (teased by Danuser) Abandoned plot

- Whole point of the expansion if bringing back Tyr for... Nothing. Abandoned plot

- Iridikron teased as the main baddy of the expansion just to dissapear mid-expansion after an still unexplained connection with the Infinite Dragonflight. Abandoned plot

- The reasons behind the Dracthyr's stasis are not explained in game, but in the book. Abandoned plot

- Vyranoth changing sides in a 10 minute pathetic questline for reasons. Abandoned plot

- This might be a more personal one, but for my, even with the mega-dungeon, the Infinite Dragonflight and Murozond plot was mostly abandoned. Murozond was heavily teased and we just see him 3 seconds and then re-wind time. Abandoned plot

It is very clear IMO that DF story was drastically changed to fit into the WSS, and the consequences were noted in the game experience (even if the Primal Incarnates are very cool).



Good point. I completely agree

Some of those were seemingly abandoned, I will give you that. Some were there for buildup to future expansion. Iridikron was clearly being set up for future content. And given he was learning about the Dark Heart the only way he could have been part of an abandoned DF plot is if the Dark Heart was part of that as well.

The ending in Aberus is there to cap off the Black Dragonflight and Dracthyr storyline. They all wanted Neltharion to have had some grander plan with his actions. But in the end the truth was that the Void had corrupted him, and that Neltharions legacy was nothing but madness.

[Joshuaj]

- The whole point of 10.0 is activating the Aspects stones to regain their powers. Abandoned plot

- Heavily teased Blue Dragonflight prison in Azure Span. Abandoned plot

- Aberrus' final raid encounter is in a voidy room with huge chains and no character makes a comment about it. Abandoned plot

- Malfurion changes places with Ysera for reasons, supposedly to come with new powers of Death (teased by Danuser) Abandoned plot

- Whole point of the expansion if bringing back Tyr for... Nothing. Abandoned plot

- Iridikron teased as the main baddy of the expansion just to dissapear mid-expansion after an still unexplained connection with the Infinite Dragonflight. Abandoned plot

- The reasons behind the Dracthyr's stasis are not explained in game, but in the book. Abandoned plot

- Vyranoth changing sides in a 10 minute pathetic questline for reasons. Abandoned plot

- This might be a more personal one, but for my, even with the mega-dungeon, the Infinite Dragonflight and Murozond plot was mostly abandoned. Murozond was heavily teased and we just see him 3 seconds and then re-wind time. Abandoned plot

It is very clear IMO that DF story was drastically changed to fit into the WSS, and the consequences were noted in the game experience (even if the Primal Incarnates are very cool).



Good point. I completely agree

1. The Oathstones stuff wasn't abandoned. The entire point of that storyline was that the oathstones alone would not be able to bring the Aspects powers back, especially since the Titans themselves are gone and whatnot.

2. We heard about it and it defended it from Raszageth and her forces, but that's it. Dunno if it was implied we'd actually enter there tho. I'll somewhat agree to this if it was implied tho.

3. Not abandoned. You just expected a bigger reaction from it, but it's nothing we haven't seen before. Wrathion and Sabellian knew about Neltharion's BS, so him having a room that directly links to the Void is not surprising.

4. When was this ever implied? He traded places with her and was in a perpetual dream state for the time being. That was it.

5. Likely done so Tyr could be in The Last Titan. This is a lengthy fantasy story, not a singular 1 expansion narrative.

6. Again, likely saved for The Last Titan.

7. It's explained in the game, albeit poorly. I agree that it should've been explored better beyond some dumb book.

8. While I do think her change was a bit weird, ya have to remember she didn't really do anything evil this expac, and her trust still had to be earned throughout the Guardians of the Dream patch. Again, her character is one I wish was better explored in the actual game and not a dumb book.

9. It wasn't abandoned. We dealt with much of it in 11.1.5 and a bit beyond that. Murozond is still a potential future for Nozdormu however. We basically just showed Nozdormu and co that it wasn't an eventuality for the events of Dragonflight alone.

Also, nothing was changed for TWW. Heck, TWW wasn't changed all that much outside of Metzen's additions to it to fit with a singular saga.

[Ersula]

- The whole point of 10.0 is activating the Aspects stones to regain their powers. Abandoned plot

- Heavily teased Blue Dragonflight prison in Azure Span. Abandoned plot

- Aberrus' final raid encounter is in a voidy room with huge chains and no character makes a comment about it. Abandoned plot

- Malfurion changes places with Ysera for reasons, supposedly to come with new powers of Death (teased by Danuser) Abandoned plot

- Whole point of the expansion if bringing back Tyr for... Nothing. Abandoned plot

- Iridikron teased as the main baddy of the expansion just to dissapear mid-expansion after an still unexplained connection with the Infinite Dragonflight. Abandoned plot

- The reasons behind the Dracthyr's stasis are not explained in game, but in the book. Abandoned plot

- Vyranoth changing sides in a 10 minute pathetic questline for reasons. Abandoned plot

- This might be a more personal one, but for my, even with the mega-dungeon, the Infinite Dragonflight and Murozond plot was mostly abandoned. Murozond was heavily teased and we just see him 3 seconds and then re-wind time. Abandoned plot

It is very clear IMO that DF story was drastically changed to fit into the WSS, and the consequences were noted in the game experience (even if the Primal Incarnates are very cool).

I agree with the general criticism of DF but you are being really hyperbolic. Trying & failing to revive the aspect powers isn't an abandoned plot, its a the low point of a 3 act structure. The Nexus prison in Azure Span was a major part of that flight's storyline; its in the dungeon...that's a whole complete arc. The Void Window in Aberrus isn't an abandoned plot, its what kicks off the entire World Soul Saga storyline: That's where the Dark Heart was forged. Stuff being explained in the book isn't unusual for wow, etc.

Ever wonder that maybe they brought Tyr back so he could serve a story in The Last Titan?

Yeah, but spending over a years worth of wow story for something that will probably just be a footnote in the story several expansions later isn't fun or exciting storytelling. And wow does it all the time. The criticism is that the story was lopsided: Too much time focused on Tyr instead of the Dragons or the Dream if that was going to be the climax of the expansion.

[Darkarath]

The ending in Aberus is there to cap off the Black Dragonflight and Dracthyr storyline. They all wanted Neltharion to have had some grander plan with his actions. But in the end the truth was that the Void had corrupted him, and that Neltharions legacy was nothing but madness.

The ending of the Black Dragonflight storyline is not bad. The fact that there was clearly something imprisoned in that room, something dangerous, and that not a single character makes a comment about it, is a narrative failure. And if nothing was imprisoned there, is a narrative failure too, because Blizzard is implying that.

1. The Oathstones stuff wasn't abandoned. The entire point of that storyline was that the oathstones alone would not be able to bring the Aspects powers back, especially since the Titans themselves are gone and whatnot.

So everything that we did in 10.0 was pointless. That doesn't sound like a good narrative decision IMO.

2. We heard about it and it defended it from Raszageth and her forces, but that's it. Dunno if it was implied we'd actually enter there tho. I'll somewhat agree to this if it was implied tho.

I think that there was more to it. It was basically The Nexus of DF. Instead of two dungeons and a raid we got a dungeon. But I'll give you that somewhat it might be considered a solved plot. At least we got the Blue Dragonflight questline as a compensation.

3. Not abandoned. You just expected a bigger reaction from it, but it's nothing we haven't seen before. Wrathion and Sabellian knew about Neltharion's BS, so him having a room that directly links to the Void is not surprising.

Not a bigger reaction. Just a reaction. There is NO reaction of any character. And something was clearly imprisoned there.

4. When was this ever implied? He traded places with her and was in a perpetual dream state for the time being. That was it.

This is what Danuser said: ''I want to make clear that this is not us saying "Malfurion doesn't matter, we just want to get him out of the way" it's not that at all, if anything its a set-up for his eventual return, because the way to think of this is that if you look back on mythology there is this story of Persephone and she was this nature Goddess who got tricked into eating some berries that caused her to have to spend part of her time in the underworld and that's why there was winter and why there was spring, and that kind of metaphor really fit the story we were telling with Ardenweald and the cycle of life and death, and how the night elves are intertwined with that. We kind of used a version of that for in order for Ysera to come out of the Shadowlands and do some things that she needs to do someone has to take her place, someone has to take that end of the bargain. So that's what Malfurion is doing, but there can be some benefit from that time that he spends in Ardenweald, Ardenweald is a place of restoration, of recovery and now that the anima drought was dealt with, Ardenweald is getting back to what it was supposed to be in the first place, and it has ties to the Emerald Dream, so there's every possibility that Malfurion can come out of this with not only a new perspective on some things, but perhaps some new energies that he can tap into. We look forward to continuing that storyline when it makes sense to do so.''

5. Likely done so Tyr could be in The Last Titan. This is a lengthy fantasy story, not a singular 1 expansion narrative.

When DF was created TLT didn't exist. The WSS is Metzen baby, that is why DF had to adapt. I agree that Tyr will be used in TLT, though.

6. Again, likely saved for The Last Titan.

Again, another change to adapt DF to the WSS.

7. It's explained in the game, albeit poorly. I agree that it should've been explored better beyond some dumb book.

Glad to finally have some common ground.

8. While I do think her change was a bit weird, ya have to remember she didn't really do anything evil this expac, and her trust still had to be earned throughout the Guardians of the Dream patch. Again, her character is one I wish was better explored in the actual game and not a dumb book.

I guess that we can call this answer another point of agreement?

9. It wasn't abandoned. We dealt with much of it in 11.1.5 and a bit beyond that. Murozond is still a potential future for Nozdormu however. We basically just showed Nozdormu and co that it wasn't an eventuality for the events of Dragonflight alone.

I won't fight for this one. As I say, it is more of a personal opinion. I was wildly dissapointed with how they treated the Infinite Dragonflight in DF. They did not advance their plot at all.

[Hitei]

And your choice of Warrior, Druid, Paladins, and Mages have among the best spots. Instead of some golden glowing titan heaven which fits more with paladins, warriors can hang out with actual warriors with the vrykuls of northrend, the most warrior race out there after orcs. Druid can for once call an actual world tree as their home instead of a grove somewhere else. Paladins and Argend Crusade go hand in hand like barely anything else here. The argen tournament grounds would even make sense with their divine steed focus, as they couldn't even ride their new horses in the legion order hall. And mages having the Aspect of Magics home place as their order hall would be the most mage thing, short of using Karazhan.

Warriors had literal valhallah, surrounded by ascended champions, watched over by the warrior Keeper now you're suggesting they go hang out in a shabby run down village surrounded by failed Vrykul who were all but wiped out last time we were there. It's a downgrade in every possible sense. They were already with vrykul, except they were with actually successful vrykul chosen, not the rejects who got completely forgotten by their not-very-warrior keepers.

The "argent tournament grounds" is a few tents in the middle of an icy field in the most Scourge heavy unholy zone on the continent. It has nothing to do with Paladins besides the fact that the Argents are Argents. You want Paladins to go from the sacred, sanctified halls of a blessed chapel with very strong story presence and nostalgia to... standing around a literal jousting faireground?

Mages do not need to be waltzing around the Blue flight's personal vaults and chambers. Putting aside how absurd that is, it's still a huge downgrade from Dalaran.


So you have one class (DKs) that actually fit, and then you have a couple classes that get downgrades, and then everyone else has basically nothing to do with the continent. If you are having to go "Monks will... have some sort of tuskarr thing even though tuskarr have nothing to do with monks? Rogues will... hang out at a goblin engineering town." that's probably a good sign that Northrend isn't actually all that great as far as bringing back class halls go.

At that point you'd be better off just doing it in Midnight. Midnight where Paladins and Priests have the literal Sunwell and a Paladin sanctum, and Mages have Sunfury Spire, Falthrien and numerous arcane sanctums, there are dedicated farstrider hunter lodges, a group of animal-shifting shamanistic trolls whose warriors make the Northrend Vrykul look like an absolute joke (because they sort of are), a former Scourge fortress for DKs, the fel constructs and crystals left behind from the deals struck with the Legion.

[Khaza-R]

"Narrative disaster that DF was"

Lmao I'll bite, what the actual hell was disastrous about it?

Narratively, nothing. Although it was boring imo.

Thematically, yes a total disaster.

[infinitemeridian]

Outside of housing, I don't think Midnight / TLT are going to have anything interesting. The game's content updates are extremely formulaic and on-rails now. New mini zone / rehashed old content followed by bigger zone + raid. 4-zone launch, 8 dungeon season with a mix of new / returning dungeons. In fact, with them probably focusing on housing, I doubt we'll get anything else beyond that and maybe some QoL stuff. New class / specs are doubtful.

[Enrif]

Warriors had literal valhallah, surrounded by ascended champions, watched over by the warrior Keeper now you're suggesting they go hang out in a shabby run down village surrounded by failed Vrykul who were all but wiped out last time we were there. It's a downgrade in every possible sense. They were already with vrykul, except they were with actually successful vrykul chosen, not the rejects who got completely forgotten by their not-very-warrior keepers.

Warriors didn't wanted that type of Valhalla. As it was extremely titan focused, which doesn't fit with most warriors. Most people were in accordance that it was among the worst order halls that didn't really fit their class. They wanted something like an arena, something that relates to Broxigar. Not Pseudo-Titan heaven.

The "argent tournament grounds" is a few tents in the middle of an icy field in the most Scourge heavy unholy zone on the continent. It has nothing to do with Paladins besides the fact that the Argents are Argents. You want Paladins to go from the sacred, sanctified halls of a blessed chapel with very strong story presence and nostalgia to... standing around a literal jousting faireground?

We had years since wrath. The tournament grounds are likely a full city by now. And you know the blessed chapel of legion? Yeah, also argent crusade area. So, not a change of theme, but location. And the significance of the argent tournament grounds, as a beacon of light against the darkness, that Tirion Fordring, the guy that actually faced of Arthas, founded. Yeah, that seems paladin as fuck.

Mages do not need to be waltzing around the Blue flight's personal vaults and chambers. Putting aside how absurd that is, it's still a huge downgrade from Dalaran.

Well, Dalaran is gone. You have to settle for something else. Besides, mages didn't had dalaran as their order hall, but only the chambers of the guardian. So, the "vaults of the Ley-Weaver" are very apropriate.

So you have one class (DKs) that actually fit, and then you have a couple classes that get downgrades, and then everyone else has basically nothing to do with the continent. If you are having to go "Monks will... have some sort of tuskarr thing even though tuskarr have nothing to do with monks? Rogues will... hang out at a goblin engineering town." that's probably a good sign that Northrend isn't actually all that great as far as bringing back class halls go.

You can see it that way. But time has also passed. Northrend could be quite different, and gained fitting places we don't know yet. Like legion had almost all of its order halls (only DK, paladin, shaman, rogue, mage got a established place, everyone elses was a new one)

At that point you'd be better off just doing it in Midnight. Midnight where Paladins and Priests have the literal Sunwell and a Paladin sanctum, and Mages have Sunfury Spire, Falthrien and numerous arcane sanctums, there are dedicated farstrider hunter lodges, a group of animal-shifting shamanistic trolls whose warriors make the Northrend Vrykul look like an absolute joke (because they sort of are), a former Scourge fortress for DKs, the fel constructs and crystals left behind from the deals struck with the Legion.

Guess the shamans, druids, rogues, monks and evoker can get recked, as there is no place for them in quel'thalas.

[Joshuaj]

Narratively, nothing. Although it was boring imo.

Thematically, yes a total disaster.

How??? The Dragons got a happy ending