The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Dracullus]

I would certainly enjoy that they took whatever time and number of expansions they need, but I believe that many players would not like to have to wait years to get revamped versions of zones that they got all in one go when the game released, and yet another time with Cataclysm with even more new zones.

So if 14.0 will be new standard continent it would be fine, but it it will be same piece of content just set in old world people would suddenly whine about it because simplified version 25 years ago had bigger size? Strange logic.

I think it would be opposite, people would hype it more than Worldsoul, especially if they announce it together again and brand as let's say 'Renewal Saga': EK North, EK South and Kalimdor.

And if they keep 18 months expacs (ok, for start let's see if they achieve it for TWW), whole thing will be done under 5 years, for WoW it's not that long.

[Makorus]

I still think if Blizzard does a world revamp, they have to do it one fell swoop rather than piece-meal over four expansions.

Nothing would kill the "World of Warcraft" vibe more than only having a fourth of the world available.

[Ersula]

I still think if Blizzard does a world revamp, they have to do it one fell swoop rather than piece-meal over four expansions.

Nothing would kill the "World of Warcraft" vibe more than only having a fourth of the world available.

Tirisfal glades have 3 different versions, 4 if you include classic. Darkshore & Arathi Highlands are in BFA era while surrounded by Cata zones. I agree that doing it in bursts is dumb, mainly because the original 2 continents are relatively small. But considering the saga is presented to us, beginning in Silithus & featuring 2 classic regions, that seems consistent with their plans

[Khaza-R]

I would certainly enjoy that they took whatever time and number of expansions they need, but I believe that many players would not like to have to wait years to get revamped versions of zones that they got all in one go when the game released, and yet another time with Cataclysm with even more new zones.

That would just be people being unrealistic though. Vanilla re-uses a ton of assets they basically just pallette swapped. I would bet that a modern expansion has more unique assets then vanilla does. And Cataclysm only really visually upgraded a handful of zones. It was really more of a system update than anything.

If people want the Kalimdor and EK modernized that's an insane amout of work to bring it up to the level of a modern expansion.

I still think if Blizzard does a world revamp, they have to do it one fell swoop rather than piece-meal over four expansions.

Nothing would kill the "World of Warcraft" vibe more than only having a fourth of the world available.

That's never going to happen. Even if you completely ignore the amount of work it would take, there's simply no reason to use all that space on a single expansion unless its going to last several years. Even if you revamped the leveling experience along with it. The size of vanilla itself is not compatiable with modern WoW.

[Darkarath]

So if 14.0 will be new standard continent it would be fine, but it it will be same piece of content just set in old world people would suddenly whine about it because simplified version 25 years ago had bigger size? Strange logic.

I think it would be opposite, people would hype it more than Worldsoul, especially if they announce it together again and brand as let's say 'Renewal Saga': EK North, EK South and Kalimdor.

No. I actually believe that it is impossible that 14.0 is your standard expansion with 4 more zones and so on. But I also believe that it is impossible that Blizzard announces a new saga about revamping the old continents for the next 5 years.

First, we are getting two expansions of revamps with Midnight and TLT, so I think that it is very very unlikely that 14.0 is another revamp (unless we get a full revamp of both continents). Second, I'm sorry but Quel'thalas and Northrend do not have the same meaning for the majority of players than Un'Goro, Durotar, Redridge Mountains and so on. Lordaeron is the only one that I believe could carry an expansion by itself. Finally, if they revamp the old continents in different expansions, it would be very hard to keep a cohesive story. Although this will already be a problem with Midnight, which will be about a Void invasion, and whenever they revamp the rest of northern Eastern Kingdoms, it would probably be about other unrelated stuff, and that certainly feels very wrong.

I still think if Blizzard does a world revamp, they have to do it one fell swoop rather than piece-meal over four expansions.

Nothing would kill the "World of Warcraft" vibe more than only having a fourth of the world available.

Exactly.

[Makorus]

Tirisfal glades have 3 different versions, 4 if you include classic. Darkshore & Arathi Highlands are in BFA era while surrounded by Cata zones. I agree that doing it in bursts is dumb, mainly because the original 2 continents are relatively small. But considering the saga is presented to us, beginning in Silithus & featuring 2 classic regions, that seems consistent with their plans

Yeah but that's my point exactly.

Tirisfal Glades, Silithus, Arathi and Darkshore being "current" while everything is old just shows you how shit a partial revamp would be, plus it really stifles them in terms of making zones bigger because they have to adhere to the current zone borders.

That's never going to happen. Even if you completely ignore the amount of work it would take, there's simply no reason to use all that space on a single expansion unless its going to last several years. Even if you revamped the leveling experience along with it. The size of vanilla itself is not compatiable with modern WoW.

But you don't have to use all that space on a single expansion. It is not something that is a short-term thing, revamping the world for one expansion would be idiotic. If you do a revamp, you implement systems and content that mean that the world remains evergreen. I can understand revamping part of Quelthalas and Northrend because it is inherently tied to the storyline, but they can revamp the world independent of the current story thread. A lot of other MMOs have content that make you re-visit old zones for either world bosses, weeklies, dailies or events.

It also allows them to kind of "reset" the lore a bit and tidy up loose ends and set a lot of things straight, because a lot of story threads are still literally left hanging from Cataclysm, and I feel like advancing that gives them a lot of opportunity for smaller stories to tell in patches and what not.

Yeah, absolutely, it's a lot of effort, but I think, in the long run it'll be worth it for Blizzard.

[Joshuaj]

Both Quel'thalas and Northrend would be re-created from the scratch. Any other option would feel like a scam, especially after Draenor.

The only way in which Quel'thalas would not get a full revamp is that Blizzard takes the chance to revamp all Northren Eastern Kingdoms' zones. Although IMO, even in that case, it would not be justified.

I cannot stop thinking about that possibility, though. Gilneas and the Undercity both need urgent revamps, and they would be the perfect capital cities for the expansion. If Blizzard only wants one capital city, a healed Stratholme could be perfect too. I just do not see Silvermoon as a shared city in 12.0. Maybe at the end of Midnight, like Amirdrassil.

I always liked the idea of Blizzard doing some type of slow but assured revamp. Like, make remake Quel'thalas from scratch, but for the rest of the old zones, maybe just update how they look and give them 2025 graphics and whatnot.

Idk, I always felt like Blizzard should start out by updating all the starting/capital racial zones first. Just feels right.

- - - Updated - - -

No. I actually believe that it is impossible that 14.0 is your standard expansion with 4 more zones and so on. But I also believe that it is impossible that Blizzard announces a new saga about revamping the old continents for the next 5 years.

First, we are getting two expansions of revamps with Midnight and TLT, so I think that it is very very unlikely that 14.0 is another revamp (unless we get a full revamp of both continents). Second, I'm sorry but Quel'thalas and Northrend do not have the same meaning for the majority of players than Un'Goro, Durotar, Redridge Mountains and so on. Lordaeron is the only one that I believe could carry an expansion by itself. Finally, if they revamp the old continents in different expansions, it would be very hard to keep a cohesive story. Although this will already be a problem with Midnight, which will be about a Void invasion, and whenever they revamp the rest of northern Eastern Kingdoms, it would probably be about other unrelated stuff, and that certainly feels very wrong.



Exactly.

I can see Blizzard making an expansion focused on finishing off the old world revamps. Like I said before, my dream expansions for the next saga are as follows (But not in order): EK and Kalimdor revamp, Avaloren, Outland Revamp.

[Sondrelk]

I always liked the idea of Blizzard doing some type of slow but assured revamp. Like, make remake Quel'thalas from scratch, but for the rest of the old zones, maybe just update how they look and give them 2025 graphics and whatnot.

Idk, I always felt like Blizzard should start out by updating all the starting/capital racial zones first. Just feels right.

Issue with that line of thought is that ther are zones with lots of stuff going on, and zones with very little. And unless you are upfront about what size we can expect zones to be you will end up with a horrible patchwork of zones with varying sizes depending on whether the expansion was a Lordaeron deep dive, or a Northern EK expansion.

Wanting all the old zones to be the same size as modern zones is a pipe dream. While perfectly feasible assuming no time restrictions and endless time to iterate, the truth is that players will expect two things from a world revamp. For it to not require constant loading zones, and for the zones to arrive within their lifetimes.
I don't doubt that WoW could easily go on for another 20 years. It's still a pretty bad business decision to state that lovers of the Dark Iron storyline will have to wait until 2040, when we have done the Lordaeron expansion, Hyjal expansion, Avaloren expansion, Avaloren 2.0 expansion, South Seas expansion, and are moving into the Sargeras' Return saga when we get the Elementals expansion and a return to Black Iron Mountain.

If Blizzard wanted a patchwork revamp of that size, then it would probably have to be a years long project where they specifically announce that they will be making a new EK and Kalimdor starting from Quel'thalas and working downwards. Which, while a coll idea. Doesnt really mesh with the current 1.5-2 year expansion rollout. Especially when those expansion are also not all revamps.

- - - Updated - - -

No. I actually believe that it is impossible that 14.0 is your standard expansion with 4 more zones and so on. But I also believe that it is impossible that Blizzard announces a new saga about revamping the old continents for the next 5 years.

First, we are getting two expansions of revamps with Midnight and TLT, so I think that it is very very unlikely that 14.0 is another revamp (unless we get a full revamp of both continents). Second, I'm sorry but Quel'thalas and Northrend do not have the same meaning for the majority of players than Un'Goro, Durotar, Redridge Mountains and so on. Lordaeron is the only one that I believe could carry an expansion by itself. Finally, if they revamp the old continents in different expansions, it would be very hard to keep a cohesive story. Although this will already be a problem with Midnight, which will be about a Void invasion, and whenever they revamp the rest of northern Eastern Kingdoms, it would probably be about other unrelated stuff, and that certainly feels very wrong.

This is also precisely why I think we are getting more than just Quel'thalas as well.
Lordaeron is the only thing that could concievably carry an entire expansion. And even then, mostly because it has such a strong thematic link to the Arathi Empire. And if that is all, then it's much easier to make it the strong B-plot of Midnight that serves as the proper introdution to the Arathi Empire.
The remaining zones in Northern EK meanwhile are incredibly weak in story. So unless you have expansion 16.0 "All the remaining zones we have not revamped", some of them will have to be filler for other expansions. Hinterlands for instance doesnt really make sense for anything but a filler zone with extra Amani trolls. Arathi Highlands is at this point only important because Strom is where the Arathi Empire originated.

Northern EK for midnight makes so much sense in my mind.
Quel'thalas for the strong Elf and Void primary theme. Lordaeron for Forsaken v. Scarlet Crusade/Arathi Empire + Scourge remnants. And then Hinterlands and Arathi as the extra zones for whatever extra storylines needs to be told. In addition to being able to use Earthen assets to spruce up the Wildhammer clan, and Jintha'alor for an Amani dungeon.

- - - Updated - - -

I still think if Blizzard does a world revamp, they have to do it one fell swoop rather than piece-meal over four expansions.

Nothing would kill the "World of Warcraft" vibe more than only having a fourth of the world available.

I dunno. 4 expansions seems like the magic number to me. 2 would be ideal, one for each continent. But each continent is the size of two modern expansion areas, so might be a tad much. For Kalimdor maybe, given how sparse the zones are in terms of concrete storylines. But for EK you would probably need 2 expansions just to be able to give a proper amount of time to each story hook.

[Makorus]

I mean, people are assuming much by thinking that all of Launch Midnight will take place in Quel'thalas.

[Darkarath]

Northern EK for midnight makes so much sense in my mind.
Quel'thalas for the strong Elf and Void primary theme. Lordaeron for Forsaken v. Scarlet Crusade/Arathi Empire + Scourge remnants. And then Hinterlands and Arathi as the extra zones for whatever extra storylines needs to be told. In addition to being able to use Earthen assets to spruce up the Wildhammer clan, and Jintha'alor for an Amani dungeon.

I agree.

Especially if K'aresh is 11.2, Midnight + patch zones could easily revamp the north part of the Eastern Kingdoms. Plus Blood Elves, Forsaken, Trolls, Arathi, the remaining Plague... It just such a good and classic mix that It almost seems imposible that they would not take the chance to do it.

[Limayria]

No. I actually believe that it is impossible that 14.0 is your standard expansion with 4 more zones and so on. But I also believe that it is impossible that Blizzard announces a new saga about revamping the old continents for the next 5 years.

First, we are getting two expansions of revamps with Midnight and TLT, so I think that it is very very unlikely that 14.0 is another revamp (unless we get a full revamp of both continents). Second, I'm sorry but Quel'thalas and Northrend do not have the same meaning for the majority of players than Un'Goro, Durotar, Redridge Mountains and so on. Lordaeron is the only one that I believe could carry an expansion by itself. Finally, if they revamp the old continents in different expansions, it would be very hard to keep a cohesive story. Although this will already be a problem with Midnight, which will be about a Void invasion, and whenever they revamp the rest of northern Eastern Kingdoms, it would probably be about other unrelated stuff, and that certainly feels very wrong.



Exactly.

You're majorly overestimating how many current retail players have special meaning for vanilla zones I've literally never once seen someone mention redridge or ungoro unprompted but people bring up northrend zones, grizzly hills especially a lot

Not to mention with how there's currently 3 versions of vanilla wow to play so if those zones were truly the important ones to people they'd play vanilla where those are relevant zones

[Polybius]

You're majorly overestimating how many current retail players have special meaning for vanilla zones I've literally never once seen someone mention redridge or ungoro unprompted but people bring up northrend zones, grizzly hills especially a lot

Not to mention with how there's currently 3 versions of vanilla wow to play so if those zones were truly the important ones to people they'd play vanilla where those are relevant zones

Redridge and Elwynn Forest are mentioned a lot on Alliance. Lordaeron for both factions. We’re going to Northrend for its Titan landmarks.

It’ll be interesting to see if they expand Ulduar as an outdoor zone.

[Khaza-R]

You're majorly overestimating how many current retail players have special meaning for vanilla zones I've literally never once seen someone mention redridge or ungoro unprompted but people bring up northrend zones, grizzly hills especially a lot

Not to mention with how there's currently 3 versions of vanilla wow to play so if those zones were truly the important ones to people they'd play vanilla where those are relevant zones

Eversong and Grizzly Hills are popular for sure. But a lot of people are equally or more attached to the OG starting zones where their journey began. And plenty of other zones that were memorable.

And people generally want progression of those old stories. New ones as well. Not just to replay the past.

[Worldshaper]

Have you guys seen this stuff?

This studio was hired by Blizzard a few years ago to draw inspirational art for the War Within, and it's all available on this website.

Basically it's not even concept art, more like pre-concept art. That said, obviously somebody at Blizzard gave them keywords to work with so the inspiration falls within the right theme.

A few examples of what we clearly see in these images:

• Lots of (living) Old God-like creatures, some of which look pretty dead and bloody.
• At least two different images of an Old God-like creature trapped within a crystal.
• Hallowfall-esque underground caverns with glowing crystals, including Titan-like hands protruding from the rocks and water, and a face visible in the cave wall.
• Underground ocean
• A crystal floating mid-air against an ocean backdrop.
• Underground cities sort of Black Empire or Titan-forged esque in style.
• Iconography similar to the "Beledar crystal falls to Azeroth" that I've been speaking about before, seen on Xal'atath's cloak, Arathi gear, etc.
• Ancient chambers with spherical artifacts.
• Intricate ancient machinery.
• Ancient tree with some kind of portal or entrance.
• A chasm on the surface, leading to the caves below.
• Mysterious watery sinkhole where water falls down into somewhere unknown.
• Some kind of circular energy pattern that looks just like the pattern on the cave roof around Beledar.
• What looks like skeletal remains of ancient Old God-like creatures, with cities built around and inside them.
• Various takes on underground civilizations concepts. Some looking more insectoid-like, some a bit dwarf-like, etc.
• At least two images featuring a glowing doorway into a crystal formation in the cave wall.
• Different takes on modes of transportation, from crystal balloons and hover craft to airships and boats.
• Some kind of creature bursting through the floor of an ancient chamber.
• Seemingly light-affiliated priests (?) carrying out a ritual inside a cave.
• Ancient Titan-like giant helmet and sword stuck in the ground.
• A giant mushroom/flower type thing inside a large cavern.
• Some kind of massive stony orbs that float mid-air and look torn apart, with huge holes on the side (reminiscent of Argus and K'aresh).

I think what stands out the most among all of this, as it relates to the possible future scenarios of War Within, are these:

• Clearly, Old God-like creatures trapped inside crystals, a.k.a. the Beledar. Also, lots of people entering crystals.
• Giant flower/mushroom and tree inside cave. Hello Elun'ahir or the rumoured "rootlands" giant flower.
• Some kind of female Titan-like creature inside Hallowfall or the Undersea. Representation of Azeroth, the world soul, Elune, some Titan-forged keeper?
• Lots of broken and black orbs, eerily similar to K'aresh, Argus, etc., and invoking thoughts of worldsouls almost.

[Hitei]

Why do worgen deserve content but not blood elves?

Because despite Blood Elf fans' endless whining and put upon attitude, as seen here:

Well you see blood elves existed in one patch in mop, and a handful of zones in TBC!! That's more than enough content

Never mind the fact pandarian have a similar level of content and worgen aren't far behind (starter zone + major roll in legion alliance stormhelm + retaking gilneas quest)

And blood (and void) elves also make up almost 30% of the player base so it's a little fair they get some spot light from time to time I think

The reality is that they get a fairly significant and regular amount of attention from the devs. They didn't just """exist in one patch in mop""" (nevermind that it wasn't actually "in one patch" because they were also involved in the Theramore storyline, the Dalaran storyline).

I think it's rather funny someone would claim that Genn being in one cutscene is Worgen having "a major roll in Legion Alliance Stormheim" but then somehow completely forget that Liadrin and the Blood Elves were an actually major force in Legion during the Suramar campaign, or forget that the Reliquary (read: Blood Elves) had quest lines in Cataclysm, Legion and BfA, and minor appearances in WoD and DF.

And of course, it's real easy to pretend that somehow, all the attention Void Elves, the exiled group of Blood Elves, got in BfA totally doesn't count.

And then we also have to ignore that unlike the majority of races in the game, Blood Elves very consistently get new stuff. New golden eyes to reflect their ongoing story changes, new skin tones, new ear options. An entire subrace on Alliance because people kept whining that they wanted to play Blood Elves but as Alliance, new blue eye options and hair colors because Void Elves weren't enough of a concession to being able to play Thalassians on Alliance. And then new hairstyles and customizable jewelry just because.

People continually spout this sort of crap:

And blood (and void) elves also make up almost 30% of the player base so it's a little fair they get some spot light from time to time I think

While somehow pretending that they do not, and have not since their implementation, ALREADY gotten frequent racial spotlighting and dev attention every couple expansions.

Panadren still have one single face shape option, no heritage armor, have never gotten their model update despite worgen and goblins getting one their's 3 expansions ago. The Pandaren have not had a questline since MoP(?) unless you count the Monk Order hall as being one (in which case we also have to talk about Felo'melorn). Worgen forces retook Gilneas in Silverpine's questline in Cataclysm when the Forsaken were forced out of the region and back to their side of the wall, nothing in the storyline ever even suggested there was anything actually stopping the Gilneans from just getting onto a ship and going back home at any point between the end of Cata and BfA. Blizzard just finally decided to bother with it nearly 15 years later.

So if we're going to use parity as the basis for who gets content because, in your own words, "sometimes races other than (the ones who get frequent content) should get content", Blood Elves aint it, and subsequently them being (fictionally) starved for content isn't a great counter-argument against the attitudes of those who aren't thrilled with the idea of a whole expansion focused around them. (I'm not even one of those people, btw, I just recognize that it's a reasonable take and that the reality is that Blood Elf players get a shit ton of dev attention.)

[The-Shan]

Because despite Blood Elf fans' endless whining and put upon attitude, as seen here:



The reality is that they get a fairly significant and regular amount of attention from the devs. They didn't just """exist in one patch in mop""" (nevermind that it wasn't actually "in one patch" because they were also involved in the Theramore storyline, the Dalaran storyline).

I think it's rather funny someone would claim that Genn being in one cutscene is Worgen having "a major roll in Legion Alliance Stormheim" but then somehow completely forget that Liadrin and the Blood Elves were an actually major force in Legion during the Suramar campaign, or forget that the Reliquary (read: Blood Elves) had quest lines in Cataclysm, Legion and BfA, and minor appearances in WoD and DF.

And of course, it's real easy to pretend that somehow, all the attention Void Elves, the exiled group of Blood Elves, got in BfA totally doesn't count.

And then we also have to ignore that unlike the majority of races in the game, Blood Elves very consistently get new stuff. New golden eyes to reflect their ongoing story changes, new skin tones, new ear options. An entire subrace on Alliance because people kept whining that they wanted to play Blood Elves but as Alliance, new blue eye options and hair colors because Void Elves weren't enough of a concession to being able to play Thalassians on Alliance. And then new hairstyles and customizable jewelry just because.

People continually spout this sort of crap:



While somehow pretending that they do not, and have not since their implementation, ALREADY gotten frequent racial spotlighting and dev attention every couple expansions.

Panadren still have one single face shape option, no heritage armor, have never gotten their model update despite worgen and goblins getting one their's 3 expansions ago. The Pandaren have not had a questline since MoP(?) unless you count the Monk Order hall as being one (in which case we also have to talk about Felo'melorn). Worgen forces retook Gilneas in Silverpine's questline in Cataclysm when the Forsaken were forced out of the region and back to their side of the wall, nothing in the storyline ever even suggested there was anything actually stopping the Gilneans from just getting onto a ship and going back home at any point between the end of Cata and BfA. Blizzard just finally decided to bother with it nearly 15 years later.

So if we're going to use parity as the basis for who gets content because, in your own words, "sometimes races other than (the ones who get frequent content) should get content", Blood Elves aint it, and subsequently them being (fictionally) starved for content isn't a great counter-argument against the attitudes of those who aren't thrilled with the idea of a whole expansion focused around them. (I'm not even one of those people, btw, I just recognize that it's a reasonable take and that the reality is that Blood Elf players get a shit ton of dev attention.)

I don't see the point of this discussion, the next expansion is almost certainly blood, void and high elf centric, so we're going to get plenty of elf content.

[Worldshaper]

Just look at these images, lol. Particularly the first two. Hello, imprisoned eldritch creature within Beledar!

Not to mention the last one with the "planets". Imagine if what we thought was K'aresh is in fact some kind of subterranean globe that burst open.

[Cheezits]

The concept art is very good, if not exactly Warcraft's style. That seems to be the point though.

I do like the idea of using crystals as balloons, as well as the giant hands and weapons. The tree probably would be used for Elun'ahir and the crystal prison does point to it NOT being a Naaru inside Beledar, no. I also like the pagoda-style of some of the bulidings which would be nice to use for Karesh.

I'd still prefer it to be the AU Army of Light inside there but it would be a nice twist if the Ancient One is calcified inside there, or Xal's real body. Or, they are one and the same.

[Worldshaper]

The concept art is very good, if not exactly Warcraft's style. That seems to be the point though.

I do like the idea of using crystals as balloons, as well as the giant hands and weapons. The tree probably would be used for Elun'ahir and the crystal prison does point to it NOT being a Naaru inside Beledar, no. I also like the pagoda-style of some of the bulidings which would be nice to use for Karesh.

I'd still prefer it to be the AU Army of Light inside there but it would be a nice twist if the Ancient One is calcified inside there, or Xal's real body.

It also begs the question, why did Archaedas lie or not tell the whole truth about it?

Also, did the Titans imprison it? Doesn't look like their handiwork.

Did Azeroth imprison it? Maybe.

Did it land on Azeroth as some type of weapon to be unlocked (awakened) by Xal'atath? Maybe?

Or is that what she meant by Naaru being long lost brethren? Is their kind sort of... born this way, and the nurturing along the way determines if it's an Old God or a Naaru? Maybe farfetched but who knows.

[Cheezits]

It also begs the question, why did Archaedas lie or not tell the whole truth about it?

It COUD be that he legit didn't know there was something inside it. Or it's something similar to Odyn wanting to scrub records of Black Empire activity.