The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Sondrelk]

Public neighborhood MUST be dynamic and pick players who are online and currently in their houses. Otherwise there is big chance you would be stuck with people who quit or just play different hours - which is very likely, cause realistically, how much time we will spend there after pre-patch?

Realistically, I imagine the public houses will be chosen dynamically at set intervals. Possibly even when you load in. Would solve quite a few issues all at once. Like some houses being less attractive to players than others, and players inevitably losing interest in the houses at random times.

[Hitei]

the tools provided

the tools provided

the tools provided

What tools provided, my guy? You have absolutely no idea what tools there will be, that is the point. Do you recognize how absolutely stupid this entire weird deflecting tirade is going to be if tomorrow, Blizzard put out a blog that says "oh and there will be a vote kick system like other typical random group content? Because then do you know what the tools provided will be? A vote kick.

When you sign up for a Public Neighborhood, you are agreeing to be randomly placed with OTHER random people, that you do not choose. That is the difference. That is why Private ones will exist.

Woah, you mean just like when I queue for a heroic or LFR? It's crazy how, despite the premade dungeon finder tool existing, public queued groups still have the option to kick whatever player they like based on a collective desire to not have that player in the group. What a weird thing, why don't they just use the tools provided?!

Oh, because they are. Because voting is a tool, a tool provided by Blizzard for public random placement, to let a group decide they don't want to group with someone anymore. You are for some reason, baselessly assuming that unlike all other randomly assigned multiplayer facets of the game, Blizzard is not going to give players some option to self-select within their randomly assigned groups.

And I notice that you never once even considered the possibility of, yknow, talking to that 50th person.

Because why would I try to convince another player to change the house they want to look the way they want it to look when they can just make the house they want to make in another randomly assigned neighborhood that is more okay with it?

If you want to use your housing to make shit like:



Or to build an orc encampment with a bunch of human heads on pikes lining the edges in the Stormwind neighborhood. Be my guest, it's your plot. But don't pretend it's totally unreasonable, heckin' """abuse""" for people to desire the ability to vote people out of a public neighborhood.

- - - Updated - - -

Public neighborhood MUST be dynamic and pick players who are online and currently in their houses. Otherwise there is big chance you would be stuck with people who quit or just play different hours - which is very likely, cause realistically, how much time we will spend there after pre-patch?

They don't pick based on people online. They are perpetual ("Neighborhoods are instanced but crucially also persistent so your neighbors can be your neighbors for years to come (or until one of you moves)". They are dynamic like layering/sharding, in that more get made as more people access the system, and if people lapse and neighborhoods go dead, they presumably collapse to fill out dead neighborhoods ("Public Neighborhoods, which the game servers are responsible for creating as needed and maintaining."). So people who quit will likely be replaced and get slotted into some sort of holding state until they re-sub, where they'll get slotted into a neighborhood with an opening.

[Worldshaper]

What do you think Xal'atath's quote means?

"I have risen from the ashes of countless empires. I have survived ordeals you cannot comprehend."

Was the simply the Harbinger for a very long time, enough time that she has been able to move from world to world and usher in Dimensius?

What did she "survive," is she merely alluding to various struggles she had had to go through with these various empires in order to bring about their downfall?

"Do the naaru speak of the eternal conflict? That the entire history of your world is but a fraction of the time that has passed?"

Is this a conflict between Light and Shadow?

"It is ironic that the weakest of us may be the ultimate victor. C'Thun, Yogg-Saron, Y'Shaarj, and... well. Only one would remain to consume the world, that was always meant to be."

"It appears the prison of N’zoth is not as strong as it once was. What you see is a tiny growth of the behemoth that may yet consume your world."

It sure sounds like one of the Old Gods were meant to consume Azeroth. Not corrupt it. Consume it.

"I long for the day our masters can truly pass into this realm. You have only seen fragments, shadows; the faintest of echoes. Ask the Ethereals what one of these manifestations are capable of."

Is this part of the "consumption" process, e.g. does an Old God have to consume Azeroth before a Void Lord can enter the physical realm, or is an Old God sort of... meant to become powerful enough to the point where Dimensius can take its form like an avatar?

"This city of the elves pales in comparison to the sleeping city..."

Why is she (like many other sources) referring to Ny'alotha as the sleeping city, and why was it described as an alternate/future reality of N'Zoth's doing -- one which would merge with Azeroth if he succeeded -- when it is also part of Azeroth's past, and called the sunken city in many sources?

In other words, did it exist as a physical city, get torn by the Titans, and then preserved in some type of alternate reality that N'Zoth conjured in his imprisonment? Is it a sort of Voidy Emerald Dream kind of blueprint for his perfect version of Azeroth?

Also, why would it ever be called the Sunken City if it was just destroyed by the Titans? Surely, it would only be technically "sunken" if it sank during the Sundering, or during the shaping of Azeroth by the Titan-forged...

Which begs the question, is there still a Sunken City version of Ny'alotha down in the depths? Queen Azshara saw a vision of it when she was turned into a naga, but presumably that was just a vision of the past.

[Ersula]

"I have risen from the ashes of countless empires. I have survived ordeals you cannot comprehend."

We already know that one. She caused the fall of the Black Empire by putting them in conflict with the trolls. She's persisted through all of known Azerothian history, so how many fallen empires is that? At least 3 that we know of.

Is this a conflict between Light and Shadow?

Obviously, but truth-be-told knowing light & shadow were designed to be in conflict with each other by the First Ones makes it a bit less compelling.

[Worldshaper]

We already know that one. She caused the fall of the Black Empire by putting them in conflict with the trolls. She's persisted through all of known Azerothian history, so how many fallen empires is that? At least 3 that we know of.
Obviously, but truth-be-told knowing light & shadow were designed to be in conflict with each other by the First Ones makes it a bit less compelling.

She says countless, which I think might be a giveaway that she is also referring to empires on other worlds. So we don't "already know that one," but I think you would be correct to include the ones you listed!

[Khaza-R]

I feel like by the end of Midnight the Light and the Void will both be taken out of the equation for vying for control of Azeroth's wouldsoul.

This would pretty much just leave Life and Order come TLT. I think a larger theme is going to be Elune versus the Titans.

[Foolicious]

What do you think Xal'atath's quote means?

"I have risen from the ashes of countless empires. I have survived ordeals you cannot comprehend."

Was the simply the Harbinger for a very long time, enough time that she has been able to move from world to world and usher in Dimensius?

What did she "survive," is she merely alluding to various struggles she had had to go through with these various empires in order to bring about their downfall?

I think shes referencing part of her history in the dagger. Always fading in and out of history. Because otherwise she would tell us that she's tried to summon dimensius for an eternity on different worlds and has never been successful.

[Worldshaper]

I think shes referencing part of her history in the dagger. Always fading in and out of history. Because otherwise she would tell us that she's tried to summon dimensius for an eternity on different worlds and has never been successful.

No I think it's more dramatic.

Like, picture a world in ruins. A former civilization lies in ashes. Once glorious buildings and towers have crumbled to dust. Dead people everywhere. The sky is darkened with a blue Void. Then on the street, you see one figure still standing. Xal'atath walks through the chaos, with a slight smirk on her face. She helped bring about all of this.

And it's been thousands of times. On thousands of worlds.

- - - Updated - - -

I feel like by the end of Midnight the Light and the Void will both be taken out of the equation for vying for control of Azeroth's wouldsoul.

This would pretty much just leave Life and Order come TLT. I think a larger theme is going to be Elune versus the Titans.

Metzen said something goes wrong in Midnight, seemingly suggesting that is involves the final clash with Light and Shadow. So there's a possibility we build up a strong Light-presence on Azeroth and banish the Shadow, only for Light to take an unexpected turn against us. Some kind of Arathi-led theocracy where no dissent is tolerated and everyone has to convert to the Light or be "purged".

[Khaza-R]

Metzen said something goes wrong in Midnight, seemingly suggesting that is involves the final clash with Light and Shadow. So there's a possibility we build up a strong Light-presence on Azeroth and banish the Shadow, only for Light to take an unexpected turn against us. Some kind of Arathi-led theocracy where no dissent is tolerated and everyone has to convert to the Light or be "purged".

I think this is definitely possible. Personally I think Xe'ra was too easily defeated by Illidan. I could see her returning somehow, taking advantage of the situation and becoming a proper villain. Or perhaps if not her, then a new Naaru who has become the Prime

[Worldshaper]

I think this is definitely possible. Personally I think Xe'ra was too easily defeated by Illidan. I could see her returning somehow, taking advantage of the situation and becoming a proper villain. Or perhaps if not her, then a new Naaru who has become the Prime

Maybe!

I like picturing what the holy army in Diablo IV looked like, when it marched to hell. You know in those cinematics, as they marched alongside Inarius?

I just think it would be cool if a certain section of the Arathi from overseas just decided that now that they had won the war for us, it was only right that they took back their homeland and "saved" it from us heathens. Perhaps the Scarlet Crusade merges with that faction somehow.

So for once we actually get a real "crusade" in WoW - a holy war started by humans who claim divine right to rule over other humans whose faith they deem inferior.

No frigging clue how it would tie into TLT, though.

I could see Tyr and Odyn having roles here. Both have abilities powered by the Light, and Aman'Thul certainly seems a bit Light-aligned with all of his timey wimey shenanigans.

[NZephyrus]

What tools provided, my guy? You have absolutely no idea what tools there will be, that is the point. Do you recognize how absolutely stupid this entire weird deflecting tirade is going to be if tomorrow, Blizzard put out a blog that says "oh and there will be a vote kick system like other typical random group content? Because then do you know what the tools provided will be? A vote kick.

Relax.

I literally stated the tools Blizzard is already discussing with us.

I'm not deflecting and it's not a tirade to be long-winded, or to take my time to write out something I'm hoping will clearly explain my perspective, I'm offering my points as to why I disagree with you and why the information provided already gives you the ability to have the Neighborhoods you want. You know, like a discussion. On a discussion board. Even if Blizzard were to post right now that I'm wrong, and they're giving free vote-kick to all and you don't need to report anything to them at all, which I do not think is likely, it's not a waste of time to have a discussion about it before they do.

I have never once stated that your desire for an immersive Neighborhood is stupid, so please do not act as if me pointing out ways you can have one without vote-kick and why I think vote-kick *isn't absolutely needed* and I think would be bad and overly-controlling in *Public Neighborhoods specifically* is. No, I don't know for sure what all the tools will be, so I'm discussing the set that they've told us we will have so far. You have speculated on how the Public Neighborhoods will be maintained by the server as if it's set in stone, and I've never once said that it was stupid to discuss, just pointed out ways that it might not be the case, or goes against other Blizzard statements. I don't think it's a "deflecting tirade" to discuss any of this, because I am willing to have a discussion. Just because I have a rebuttal to your points, just because you don't like them, does not mean I am attacking you, or that I'm trying to say you aren't allowed to have fun in WoW.

Again, relax. Read what I'm saying in good faith, please, and understand that I am rebutting your points, not your character or desire to have immersion in general.

Private Neighborhoods are a tool to pick your neighbors more directly. When you go into a Public space in the game presently, you cannot force other players out of the public space with a vote-kick.

You get a vote-kick in dungeons because dungeons and other random group content are short-term activities where the random people can hinder your progress. This is not the same as with housing. Your neighbor having an ugly plot won't stop you from being able to work on yours.

Just like someone having an ugly transmog doesn't stop you from being able to use the Auction House, nor hinder you in completing a dungeon or your quests.

A house you *don't like* in a Public Neighborhood is more like someone having an ugly transmog in the Auction House. It is a Public space you AGREED to be with random people in. You cannot force the person into a different shard or server for being in a garish Transmog. Even if you're on an RP Server and everyone else agrees with you.

You're stating that you NEED a kick-vote tool for Public Neighborhoods. I'm stating that Private Neighborhoods make that not needed, and that it is a tool they've already said you'll have, so I think it would be better to use that tool than to make demands on others in larger, Public spaces.

Like how I mentioned that even on RP servers you can't force people in Public spaces to role-play the same ways as you, even if it breaks *your* immersion. You cannot force a Troll player out of the Auction House or to a different shard because they won't use a Troll accent when they /say things. Because it does not hinder your ability to play the game.

Woah, you mean just like when I queue for a heroic or LFR? It's crazy how, despite the premade dungeon finder tool existing, public queued groups still have the option to kick whatever player they like based on a collective desire to not have that player in the group. What a weird thing, why don't they just use the tools provided?!

Oh, because they are. Because voting is a tool, a tool provided by Blizzard for public random placement, to let a group decide they don't want to group with someone anymore. You are for some reason, baselessly assuming that unlike all other randomly assigned multiplayer facets of the game, Blizzard is not going to give players some option to self-select within their randomly assigned groups.

Stop. Stop getting angry and saying I said things I didn't. I never said there wasn't options to self-select, of course they will provide that. It is not baseless for me to point out that Private Neighborhoods are specifically a tool to *self-select* your neighbors, for whatever criteria you'd like. I also said that you can report to Blizzard for rule-breaking which is also a useful tool! You're calling dungeons public and saying Neighborhoods need the same tools, but I argue that they aren't public in the same way a Public Neighborhood would be, and I do not think that it's a *needed tool* in the same way it is in dungeons. Random Dungeons you can also join as a premade group, and control a level of your party in that manner. Blizzard has not yet stated that you can join a Public Neighborhood together with someone you're grouped with, so there's already a method of self-selection that might not be the same between the two kinds of multiplayer experience (and I'll point out that entering a capital city is also agreeing to be part of a randomly-selected public group, that being in a public place in an MMO is also a multiplayer experience; you can influence the shard you're on, but you can't directly pick all the people you'll see in it). Also, in premade groups for random dungeons, vote-kick counts work a bit differently, as if Blizzard knows that there's ways you can abuse the vote-kick that way and want to prevent it. Vote-kicks are useful tools when appropriate, I just disagree with thinking that it's a necessary (or appropriate) tool for Public Neighborhoods the way you do.

Like we've said, vote-kick in dungeons is meant to remove players that are not working for the group's *performance*. Which is intended for the actual gameplay. As in, to allow you to complete the dungeon. There's lots of different ways a person could disrupt the run or be toxic to the group, which would prevent the dungeon or LFR or whatever from being completed in a timely manner. Because random dungeons and such are meant to be short/shorter-term activities. If you could not vote-kick in dungeons or LFR and had to wait for Blizzard to weigh in, you'd never finish or would have to leave yourself to start over (risking deserter). The fast, short-term nature of the group is part of why you have the kick-vote function.

That's different from housing.

First of all, you are not meant to queue into dungeons expecting to get, say a Pandaren Shaman healer, and then kick people repeatedly until you get the aesthetic for your team you want. Or to kick people because you don't like that they're using the Murloc onesie as their transmog. Just because you are technically capable of using the tool that way, that's still not using the tools as intended. (Especially since kicking people from dungeons, especially early on, does also punish the kicked player beyond removal. Deserter debuff means that they are no longer able to queue for 30 minutes. It's also part of why you have kick tools instead of having to leave and requeue, so YOU don't get deserter because one person is hindering the group's performance. I'm not saying that housing kicks will definitely have punishments, mind, just pointing out that the kicking example we already have in-game DOES.) That's more comparable to joining a Public neighborhood and not liking your neighbor's house design.

I'm saying this because one (bad teammate in random dungeon) hinders your ability to interact with the game and the other (ugly house in Public Neighborhood) does not, and there's been no information saying that you'll suffer a punishment for leaving a Neighborhood when leaving a random group can inflict a punishment on you. It's not a perfect comparison.

Also, you CAN'T vote-kick in "all other randomly assigned multiplayer facets of the game". Ignoring how shards in a captial city/any other zone are also a "randomly assigned multiplayer facet" of WoW, unless something changed somewhat recently, you don't have a vote-kick in PVP random-group activities, including Solo Shuffle. Because you are expected to work with the people you agreed to be randomly grouped with. Because in PVP, one member underperforming doesn't stop the PVP match from being completed, it just lowers your odds of being the side to win. A bit like how Public Neighborhoods you're expected to be grouped with random people with random tastes, and how not liking your Neighbor or their house doesn't hinder your ability to engage with housing. In BGs/etc at least you can report AFK, but that's not intended to be used as a "kick for whatever reason" tool, it's for, yknow, reporting AFK, and Blizzard allegedly has systems in place to deal with people/groups that abuse it. That's more like Reporting a rule-breaking house in a Neighborhood, a tool I already said Blizzard is certainly going to have. It processes automatically in a BG because it's meant to be faster-completed content, like with dungeons above, while Neighborhoods are long-term, so won't stop you from "completing" it if you have to wait for a person to read and review the Report.

There's also the fact that vote-kick works in a dungeon group because, obviously, you're all online (or are supposed to be). You're all right there, at that moment, playing at the same time. So voting is basically instant, which lets you get right back to playing without the problem person (or queue for a replacement if needed). Voting in a Neighborhood would naturally be different. What if 2/3rds of the Neighborhood isn't online when you initiate a vote? What if they're in a Raid and can't come look at what you're voting for? Do they not get to vote? Do you have to wait for them all to get online/to the Neighborhood? If you only take the votes of the 1/3rd people online, what if the other 2/3rds disagreed and liked their Neighbor and their house? If the vote waits, what if it takes weeks for at least *enough* of them to get online to finish the vote? Are they not allowed a say in their Neighborhood if they're on vacation? If it only considers people that are online, you could just wait until you're the only person online and kick out anyone you didn't like, regardless of your other neighbors opinions. If it makes you wait, then you're stuck waiting to find out the result, which could take longer than a Report (if it's a rule-breaking house). This gets complicated quickly, in ways that dungeon kicks simply don't. I can see it becoming a headache for Blizzard to code in a way that makes a reasonable percentage of the playerbase happy, and getting more people complaining about being kicked than random dungeons already get as a result.

Which is another reason I argue it's not really comparable. It doesn't hinder your ability to play like a dungeon, dungeons are short-term groups that need quick-resolutions versus Neighborhoods being longer-term groups that do not need them as fast, and unlike during a random dungeon, not everyone will be online or in the Neighborhood at the same time. Blizzard already has limits on the vote-kick feature where it exists, and has random group content where it does not exist.

You are insisting that you NEED the SAME tools used to self-select in aesthetic-based gameplay as you have in combat-based gameplay. I am arguing that the tools Blizzard has already discussed will allow you to self-select and that not having the ability to force-kick someone yourself right away won't hinder you from working on your own house or visiting your other Neighbors while your Report to Blizzard is processed.

"But housing is meant to be aesthetic" Yes, I agreed with you there! But you have to agree to be in a Public neighborhood. With the CURRENT information provided by Blizzard, the Public Neighborhoods are being randomly slotted with Private being the option to pick your neighbors.

Public versus Private are literally the tools Blizzard has confirmed *thus far*. I have not said that it would be impossible to provide more. I am saying that these tools will allow you to have the atmosphere you are asking for and that I do not think you *need* more. I argue that it would be bad to impose your aesthetics on other people when you agreed to be in a long-term Public group of random people with random tastes. That Private Neighborhoods will be provided to allow you to self-select from the start.

If Blizzard wants to provide a kick tool for Public servers, that's up to them. I disagree with the concept being used for Public Neighborhoods specifically, because they're trying to encourage random people to become a community. It is not "stupid" for me to discuss the reasons why I do not think it's needed and why I think it would be a hindrance to the purpose of Public Neighborhoods. You disagreeing with me does not make it stupid. It means *we disagree.* The only thing here that might be stupid is how angry you're getting at me for disagreeing and saying that the options Blizzard is already discussing will easily allow you to create the atmosphere you want. If you care that much about the *appearance* of your neighbors, I don't think its unreasonable for you to put a little bit more effort to self-select.

You are getting way too angry at me for simply stating that you shouldn't be able to force your RP rules on people in Public environments. I stated reasons why it's different from dungeons already, that Public Neighborhoods are not the same type of group content. AGAIN I state:

Your neighbor in a Public Neighborhood having a Murloc-shaped, -styled or -themed house will not hinder your progress in creating your own house on your own plot.

Someone not playing properly in a Random Dungeon or similar WILL hinder your progress, so you have the vote-kick.

Someone playing incorrectly in PVP does hinder your ability to play, but you do not have an actual vote-kick, merely a Report that is intended for different uses. Players misusing this tool does not mean this is not the case, just as people can and do misuse vote-kick in dungeons and LFR.

I have also stated REPEATEDLY that I'm confident Blizzard will have a REPORT tool, as well. And that RP servers will potentially have more rules. You'll have your ability to report someone for breaking immersion, and if Blizzard agrees that it breaks the rules, including RP rules on those servers, they'll handle it. I've stated how I imagined it could be a headache and go against the spirit of the feature. I notice you're ignoring me discussing Report and clarifying that it's a useful tool, and seem to be ignoring the possibility of it at all. But I'll get back to that in a moment.

Because why would I try to convince another player to change the house they want to look the way they want it to look when they can just make the house they want to make in another randomly assigned neighborhood that is more okay with it?

Because they are literally not hindering your ability to work on your own house. Because they are a human person that might enjoy the Neighborhood they're in and like I literally said they might want to stay more than whatever aesthetic you personally didn't like. Public Neighborhoods should encourage interactions with your neighbors, meeting new people, new viewpoints, new experiences. Making a new community that can last years. Blizzard wants players to interact with each other. Which includes talking to each other. I'm suggesting that maybe you do that in a slower-paced, non-critical feature like housing, instead of instantly jumping to force-ably removing people you don't like. That I think it's more in the spirit of the idea of Public Neighborhoods.

"What if they won't change?" Maybe they won't. You can't force someone to change a transmog in a dungeon. But their transmog doesn't prevent you from being able to defeat a boss. Their house won't prevent you from working on yours. But if you agreed to be in a Public Neighborhood, that means interacting with different people. Maybe Blizzard will provide a voting tool to Public Neighborhoods, maybe they disagree with the way I've interpreted the exact information they've given us thus far, maybe they create a special kick tool for RP servers only or something, but if they don't, it does not prevent you from self-selecting your neighbors, you just would have to do it in the manners they provide, whatever that ends up being.

If you want to use your housing to make shit like:

Or to build an orc encampment with a bunch of human heads on pikes lining the edges in the Stormwind neighborhood. Be my guest, it's your plot. But don't pretend it's totally unreasonable, heckin' """abuse""" for people to desire the ability to vote people out of a public neighborhood.

When you initially said that we needed an ability to vote-kick in Public Neighborhoods or they would be unlivable without it, you did not use an example of someone doing something that would be clearly against the rules, even for an RP server. "[P]eople who make their house look like a big red and yellow striped murloc" were your exact words for your specific example. When I pushed back that I firmly disagreed, that it wasn't enough reason to remove someone from a Public space, using Transmog as an example of not being able to remove someone for not matching *your* aesthetic, then the only examples you provided for "not wanting in the Neighborhood" were for things that would almost certainly be breaking any additional rules an RP-server (and possibly in general).

Again. Your first example in text was a murloc house, something you found against your *personal* aesthetic for a WoW Neighborhood and you think would break an RP-server's rules and/or your personal immersion, but the only screenshots you've shared were meme-y shit that would absolutely be Reported to Blizzard in an RP-server. I *agreed* in a reply to you that meme-y shit would be Reportable. Just like how non-RP names are Reportable. I do not think it's unreasonable for you to have to wait a few hours for Blizzard to remove it. I agreed with another user that this would be super reasonable, and even expected. It would probably be *faster* than waiting for a whole Neighborhood (especially assuming it's full, because you've used the 49-1 example previously) to vote on it, because not everyone will have the same play schedule, which I discussed above in this post already.

You're being disingenuous, please stop.

"I want to remove someone for having a house I personally think is garish" and "I want to remove someone whose house is breaking the rules" are two different sentences.

I literally stated that you would almost certainly have the ability to report plots to Blizzard. Just like you can report someone's name and how that has more rules for an RP server. I literally said as such in response to the LAST screenshot you shared as if it was some sort of "gotcha" but you refuse to acknowledge me going "Yes you should be able to report that to Blizzard."

I am saying that it will not hinder your ability to play and build on your own plot if you to have to wait the few hours or so it would reasonably take for Blizzard to look at the report and go "yes, statues of anime girls are against general rules and human heads on pikes in Stormwind are against RP-server rules" and remove it in whatever way they see fit. I'm sure any RP-server rules will include a reasonable level of preventing disruption just like they do

But, if it's not against the rules, yes, I do think it would be abuse for you to force someone out of a Public Neighborhood you agreed to be in with random people with random tastes, in that I do not think it is the way Blizzard wants us to interact with the feature, that I agreed which the others that stated that Public Neighborhoods mean "accepting the chaos," and I stated that I think that specifically because we will have methods to create Neighborhoods we'll have more direct control over. Just like I think it's abusing vote-kick to kick out people of dungeons because you don't like their race/class combo or their transmog because that's not the intended use of the tool (especially since that punishes them further with a debuff), or to use AFK Report in BGs to get someone removed for anything but AFK (or at least similar behavior).

If Blizzard disagrees and wants to have that feature in Public Neighborhoods, that's up to them. But I think it would be better for Public Neighborhoods to be random and something you don't control like other Public spaces, and if you want control you create a Private Neighborhood with like-minded players.

If you disagree with me, that's fine. You don't have to get angry with me. And you do not have to keep posting images of things that I literally already agreed with you would be rule-breaking for at least an RP server when I literally stated that I expect there to be a Report function.

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So people who quit will likely be replaced and get slotted into some sort of holding state until they re-sub, where they'll get slotted into a neighborhood with an opening.

You're also making assumptions about how Public Neighborhoods will be maintained. You keep sourcing "which the game servers are responsible for creating as needed and maintaining" and then stating that if people quit/lapse/un-sub they'll be removed from them, but Blizzard has stated that Neighborhoods are meant to persist for "years to come" until "one of you moves." They've not said that un-subbing will remove you from a Neighborhood, Public or Private, and have said that un-subbing will not remove your house. "Maintaining" the Public Neighborhoods could also just mean removing empty ones if everyone moves away too quickly, and refilling it with new people if people move away more slowly.

I am not saying you are wrong here, mind. I'm offering a different perspective. People don't always operate on a persistent sub, some people buy their game time a month or two at a time and will let it lapse for a month or two. Or might have to wait an extra week to renew. If I let my sub lapse for two weeks, say, do you think that Blizzard should just remove me from any Public Neighborhoods I'm in? Two months? If you think it's a timed thing, where's the cutoff? That feels weirdly punishing to me, to make players start over with finding a new community, for just not having money, especially when Blizzard has stated that they want "your neighbors can be your neighbors for years to come (or until one of you moves)." That sounds to me more like they have no intent to remove you from Neighborhoods for something like inactivity. They did not say that was exclusive to Private Neighborhoods, either, in fact they said it before listing the two types.

If anything, it sounds like it would be more of a hassle to code, because the code would have to check the player's last login or sub-status, determine if it's to be removed, then remove it to some sort of holding position, also holding onto which plot in the Neighborhood it's in if they aren't all identical in external details. How often would that code get run? Constantly? Daily? At weekly reset? For up to 50 people per Public Neighborhood, for however many Neighborhoods are needed? It would be much simpler and cleaner to let the house stay unless it gets removed for Reportable reasons, and not mess with the player's data, especially considering how much code and detail is already going into housing and the issues WoW has had with code and losing player data already. We've had people lose things from Guild Banks, and even the Warband Bank due to Blizzard's code breaking already, and not everything could be restored. When Blizzard has stated "and if your subscription lapses, don’t worry, your house doesn’t get repossessed!" it would be really bad form if something went wrong, and the more moving parts there are in their code, the more places there are for things to go wrong.

If the Neighborhood I'm in gets too quiet for me, because the neighbors aren't online when I am or aren't subbed, I'm perfectly able to move myself.

[Ersula]

No I think it's more dramatic.

Did the trolls count as an empire? Did the scourge count as an empire? Did the old Alliance count as an empire? It might just be countless because Azeroth's history is longer than its actual documentation.

I don't think a character dumb enough to let her weapon of mass destruction fall into the hands of an ethereal gopher is intergalactic or millions of years old.

We've already observed the fact that the title of Harbinger has been given to multiple, unrelated characters.

[Schwert]

I feel like by the end of Midnight the Light and the Void will both be taken out of the equation for vying for control of Azeroth's wouldsoul.

This would pretty much just leave Life and Order come TLT. I think a larger theme is going to be Elune versus the Titans.

They're gonna keep escalating the stakes until there's nothing left to chase anymore.

I miss when the game was more grounded.

[Worldshaper]

Did the trolls count as an empire? Did the scourge count as an empire? Did the old Alliance count as an empire? It might just be countless because Azeroth's history is longer than its actual documentation.

I don't think a character dumb enough to let her weapon of mass destruction fall into the hands of an ethereal gopher is intergalactic or millions of years old.

We've already observed the fact that the title of Harbinger has been given to multiple, unrelated characters.

People seem to be speculating she had something to do with the fall of K'aresh though, and she's certainly linked to it by seemingly being specifically Dimensius' Harbinger.

So that's already one likely world she was involved with, beyond Azeroth.

She also keeps yapping about the eternal conflict and talks of ancient events and places from pre-history like they were recent to her.

Also, if she considers the naaru her long lost brethren and Elune her great enemy.

Oh, and when she speaks of Void Lords she says we (the players) have only seen the faintest echo of their true forms, which to me suggests she has seen more, which in turn implies she's been elsewhere before Azeroth, as they've never been there.

I know she ain't the first Harbinger on Azeroth. But I'm wondering if Deathwing was sort of another attempt while Xal'atath was indisposed.

[shoc]

What do you think Xal'atath's quote means?

"It appears the prison of N’zoth is not as strong as it once was. What you see is a tiny growth of the behemoth that may yet consume your world."

It sure sounds like one of the Old Gods were meant to consume Azeroth. Not corrupt it. Consume it.

"I long for the day our masters can truly pass into this realm. You have only seen fragments, shadows; the faintest of echoes. Ask the Ethereals what one of these manifestations are capable of."

Is this part of the "consumption" process, e.g. does an Old God have to consume Azeroth before a Void Lord can enter the physical realm, or is an Old God sort of... meant to become powerful enough to the point where Dimensius can take its form like an avatar?

My interpretation is that the Old Gods function as cosmic parasites, and like real-world parasites, they begin as larval infestations (ie. G’huun), embedding themselves within a host world. As they grow, they enmesh with the planet’s biosphere and spiritual architecture, ultimately draining it of life and meaning. The more powerful the host, especially those with a World-Soul, the more powerful and ascendant an Old God could become.

Compared to the structured pantheons of the Titans and other cosmic forces, the Old Gods and the Void Lords embody pure entropy. There's no hierarchy, or unity, just chaos and opportunism.

Consuming a World-Soul could be what allows an Old God to ascend, evolving beyond its parasitic form into a Void Lord manifest. This could be what happened on K’aresh, if it had a typical World-Soul, like Argus, it might have been devoured, leading to the emergence of Dimensius. But even Dimensius eventually faded, ordinary World-Souls can’t sustain a Void Lord’s presence indefinitely.

And we see those massive, tentacle-ridden planets in the Void skyboxes, they could be worlds without World-Souls, parasitized beyond belief, their Old Gods matured but never evolving any further. With no World-Soul to trigger evolution, they are doomed to rot alongside their dying hosts, never ascending.

But Azeroth is different. Her World-Soul is unique. Should she be consumed, by an Old God, or a Void Lord, it could grant the devourer permanent manifestation in the physical universe and achieve true incarnation. To pass fully into this realm.

And just symbolically/conceptually speaking, for the Void, which is defined by impermanence and entropy, I can't imagine a greater prize - permanence.

[NZephyrus]

They're gonna keep escalating the stakes until there's nothing left to chase anymore.

I miss when the game was more grounded.

I kinda do, too. Don't get me wrong, I've had fun in most of the expacs but I really hope after TLT they have a lower-stakes story that feels more local (at least for the immediate term, I'm okay with the "if we don't stop this here, it could expand out" set of tropes).

Dragonflight felt like it was going to start that way, and I think did through most of the initial questing zones. I liked helping specific areas deal with not just the Primalists but their own local issues that weren't always directly connected or were written to not need their influence to be something that needed addressed. Like stopping the djaradin and driving them from the Black flight's territory, or stopping the Brackenhide Gnolls from spreading decay through the Azure Span. Those could have been stories of just helping those areas with their own isolated problems, and still were in their own ways, just tied into an overarching villain group for cohesion.

But I think that the Primalists' desire to wipe all Titan influence from Azeroth made it difficult to write them as being a more local threat that *could* expand out if not contained or defeated. Maybe if they were more specifically wanting revenge against the Aspects and the Titan-ordered Dragonflights under them for "betraying dragonkind" by "willingly accepting their influence" or something?

I don't know, I feel like the last time we got something closer to that was probably Mists? The Sha, the Mogu, and the Mantid were all issues on and from Pandaria, which had their eyes set on Pandaria specifically (or, in terms of the Sha, were a local problem tied to the area's lore, new as that lore was). Those were all in danger of spreading afterwards, of course, an evil conquering threat rarely really wants to stop expanding, but I remember the characters talking more about protecting *Pandaria* or conquering *Pandaria* far more than doing that for *Azeroth* overall outside of Wrathion's future-expac buildup quests, until we got to the last raid patch, where even that raid took place half on Pandaria and half in Orgrimmar (and a good chunk of that in Garrosh's underground setup). It felt like a much more gradual build up to me?

Even that was very much still escalating stakes, though, it just didn't escalate to a cosmic or spiritual level, even when Garrosh used the Heart.

Again, I hope after TLT, we get something that has less high-stakes to it. For at least one expac.

[Joshuaj]

The next Saga of WoW should focus on finishing up the revamps, and adding a new landmass to explore.

EK and Kalimdor revamp, Outland Revamp, and Avaloren (Not in that specific order).

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Grounded political conflicts, Demonic Warfare, and exploring a new landmass with new empires, creatures, and whatnot.

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What do you think Xal'atath's quote means?

"I have risen from the ashes of countless empires. I have survived ordeals you cannot comprehend."

Was the simply the Harbinger for a very long time, enough time that she has been able to move from world to world and usher in Dimensius?

What did she "survive," is she merely alluding to various struggles she had had to go through with these various empires in order to bring about their downfall?

"Do the naaru speak of the eternal conflict? That the entire history of your world is but a fraction of the time that has passed?"

Is this a conflict between Light and Shadow?

"It is ironic that the weakest of us may be the ultimate victor. C'Thun, Yogg-Saron, Y'Shaarj, and... well. Only one would remain to consume the world, that was always meant to be."

"It appears the prison of N’zoth is not as strong as it once was. What you see is a tiny growth of the behemoth that may yet consume your world."

It sure sounds like one of the Old Gods were meant to consume Azeroth. Not corrupt it. Consume it.

"I long for the day our masters can truly pass into this realm. You have only seen fragments, shadows; the faintest of echoes. Ask the Ethereals what one of these manifestations are capable of."

Is this part of the "consumption" process, e.g. does an Old God have to consume Azeroth before a Void Lord can enter the physical realm, or is an Old God sort of... meant to become powerful enough to the point where Dimensius can take its form like an avatar?

"This city of the elves pales in comparison to the sleeping city..."

Why is she (like many other sources) referring to Ny'alotha as the sleeping city, and why was it described as an alternate/future reality of N'Zoth's doing -- one which would merge with Azeroth if he succeeded -- when it is also part of Azeroth's past, and called the sunken city in many sources?

In other words, did it exist as a physical city, get torn by the Titans, and then preserved in some type of alternate reality that N'Zoth conjured in his imprisonment? Is it a sort of Voidy Emerald Dream kind of blueprint for his perfect version of Azeroth?

Also, why would it ever be called the Sunken City if it was just destroyed by the Titans? Surely, it would only be technically "sunken" if it sank during the Sundering, or during the shaping of Azeroth by the Titan-forged...

Which begs the question, is there still a Sunken City version of Ny'alotha down in the depths? Queen Azshara saw a vision of it when she was turned into a naga, but presumably that was just a vision of the past.

Why is Xal referring to Ny'alotha as the sleeping city? Because it was. It slumbered within N'Zoth's mind. After his releasing, he wanted to bring that vision to reality, hence why it was called the waking city.

Also, it's unlikely the Old Gods were gonna do things alongside the Void Lords, as they all have their own motives, separate from one another.

Regarding the other things? Xal'atath likely existed beyond the Black Empire, she was likely talking about the Void's conflict with the Light on many occasions, and she is known (like many other villains) to be quite the glazer. "I have risen from the ashes of countless empires" and blah blah blah. Lady, I fought the Devil at the literal origin point of existence itself. Cut the yap (that wasn't to you, Worldshaper. Was saying that about Xal'atath lol).

[Hitei]

I don't think it's a "deflecting tirade" to discuss any of this, because I am willing to have a discussion.

I do not think an actual discussion would be but it is very much a deflecting tirade to make thinly veiled appeals to authority by inventing a set system feature scope and trying to frame someone saying the system should include a feature outside that as somehow "not using the system as intended".

Read what I'm saying in good faith, please, and understand that I am rebutting your points, not your character or desire to have immersion in general.

I would if you were actually rebutting my points, but it is also a bit of a deflecting tirade to continually throw out blatant strawman arguments, like so:

You're stating that you NEED a kick-vote tool for Public Neighborhoods.

When you initially said that we needed an ability to vote-kick in Public Neighborhoods or they would be unlivable without it

You're calling dungeons public and saying Neighborhoods need the same tools

You are insisting that you NEED the SAME tools used to self-select in aesthetic-based gameplay as you have in combat-based gameplay.

when, in reality what I actually said was:

being on an RP server, it would be nice to have the capability to vote out people who make their house look like a big red and yellow striped murloc or some shit

Stop getting angry and saying I said things I didn't.

Irony of this statement as seen above aside, you are confusing sarcasm and dismissal for anger. I'm not angry, I just also have no issue dismissing fallacious arguments or highlighting the hilarity of insisting that "you signed up for a random group" so there's no place for removing people from that random group when you can do so in Blizzard's other random group systems.

I never said there wasn't options to self-select, of course they will provide that. It is not baseless for me to point out that Private Neighborhoods are specifically a tool to *self-select* your neighbors, for whatever criteria you'd like.

It is when running dungeons ALSO has both a tool to hand pick individuals for a private dungeon run rather than queueing for a public one, and the public one still includes a vote kick system.

In BGs/etc at least you can report AFK, but that's not intended to be used as a "kick for whatever reason" tool, it's for, yknow, reporting AFK

I suppose. But also, it sort of is, because the game already automatically removes anyone who is AFK the second that the character is /away flagged from actual inactivity. The tool was implemented originally as a counter to bots being able to move and avoid that flagging, but the "abuse" Blizzard enforces here isn't "you're not allowed to kick people who are active but not contributing" (see below regarding the functions of a system), the abuse that they act against is pre-made groups dogpiling some random otherwise active and contributing player, or people getting into an argument in the BG chat and then using the afk to settle that argument.

Like we've said, vote-kick in dungeons is meant to remove players that are not working for the group's *performance*. Which is intended for the actual gameplay...

That's different from housing.

First of all, you are not meant to queue into dungeons expecting to get, say a Pandaren Shaman healer, and then kick people repeatedly until you get the aesthetic for your team you want.

Correct. Dungeons and housing are two systems that have different gameplay. Dungeons involve trying to complete a series of PvE encounters, so disruption comes in the form of a player not doing that to the group's collectively decided performance standard (see: slow, going afk, somehow getting the group killed accidentally or not, etc.), or in someone being outright toxic or otherwise tempting a social rule violation, which allows for both vote kicking and the capability to report it to Blizzard for further action.

Housing is an aesthetic gameplay system, as you yourself already noted ("in aesthetic-based gameplay as you have in combat-based gameplay."). It's gameplay involves designing the look and feel of a thing, and the exterior portion involves doing that in concert with a group of players in the form of a neighborhood. So disruption comes in the form of what the players surrounding you are doing aesthetically. You are not meant to queue into dungeons expecting to get a Pandaren Shaman and kicking anyone who isn't, because Pandaren and Shaman are largely aesthetic choices at the randomly queueable difficulty level in a system that is practical in nature, not aesthetic. You are however, reasonably allowed to keep kicking people who are just auto-attacking and half-assing DPS, (a practical drain on the group) even if in theory the group has plenty enough damage to get through the dungeon, because that person is still dragging down the function of the system as is determinable by the group's collective will.

Much like someone dragging down the aesthetics of a neighborhood, should be subject to the group's collective will.

You can't force someone to change a transmog in a dungeon. But their transmog doesn't prevent you from being able to defeat a boss. Their house won't prevent you from working on yours.

Yes, exactly. The point of a dungeon is to beat a boss. Someone doing low DPS is unlikely to prevent you from being able to defeat a boss on any randomly queueable difficulty. The group can still decide that a person's contribution isn't up to their standards and remove them. Their house doesn't prevent the rest of the neighborhood from working on their own individual houses, but it does contribute to the neighborhood's overall look and so affect the players in the primary function of the system, aesthetics.

...a house you *don't like* in a Public Neighborhood is more like someone having an ugly transmog in the Auction House.

...and I'll point out that entering a capital city is also agreeing to be part of a randomly-selected public group, that being in a public place in an MMO is also a multiplayer experience

A capital city and an auction house aren't semi-permanent, perpetual 50 person environments you are intended to spend, in Blizzard's own words, years in seeing those people and their plots every time you go to your house. Amusing that you would complain about disingenuousness while pretending that cities are a comparable situation of "totally, technically randomly grouped players!"

Again. Your first example in text was a murloc house, something you found against your *personal* aesthetic for a WoW Neighborhood and you think would break an RP-server's rules and/or your personal immersion, but the only screenshots you've shared were meme-y shit that would absolutely be Reported to Blizzard in an RP-server....

"I want to remove someone for having a house I personally think is garish" and "I want to remove someone whose house is breaking the rules" are two different sentences.

That's how examples work, bud. They're an example, not the totality. There's nothing in the rules to suggest meme-y shit and pepe houses are a rule violation, so whether your house is a big yellow and red stripped murloc or your lawn is a meme frog, neither of these are particularly "just report it to Blizzard" situations.

I do find it pretty interesting that you think meme-y shit would be reasonably reportable on RP servers, and yet somehow argue that transmog, and its extremely meme-y potential combinations, totally hasn't jumped the shark. I also find in interesting you draw the line at third party memes, but that the original, murloc example is totally unreasonable despite also being memetic and equally immersion breaking.

"Maintaining" the Public Neighborhoods could also just mean removing empty ones if everyone moves away too quickly, and refilling it with new people if people move away more slowly.

I am not saying you are wrong here, mind. I'm offering a different perspective. People don't always operate on a persistent sub, some people buy their game time a month or two at a time and will let it lapse for a month or two. Or might have to wait an extra week to renew. If I let my sub lapse for two weeks, say, do you think that Blizzard should just remove me from any Public Neighborhoods I'm in? Two months? If you think it's a timed thing, where's the cutoff?

Wherever they decide the cut-off is. It's an arbitrary enforcement, much like guild inactivity allowing officers to take control of a guild. I highly doubt that Blizzard would be okay with--when like basically every expansion since ~WoD, the active player/sub count drops a couple months into Midnight--there being neighborhoods where 10-15 active players are left with 35-40 dormant plots whose owners aren't playing. There's no way on Blizzard's end to actually tell the difference between a sub lapse that is going to be lapsed two weeks, and a sub lapse that is never going to play the game ever again.

In your hypothetical where a bunch of people move away quickly... where are those new people automatically being refilled from if not existing but inactive neighborhoods being merged? The only other sources of unassigned individuals are people randomly moving, or people brand new to the system, both of these are going to be significantly low in number compared to the expansion cycle's population drop. Consider also the paradox here if the presumed functionality does not exist:

If the Neighborhood I'm in gets too quiet for me, because the neighbors aren't online when I am or aren't subbed, I'm perfectly able to move myself.

You are a person in Neighborhood #125 in patch 12.1.5. Your neighborhood is "dead", there's like 5 active players and 45 people who have stopped playing the expansion for now (for whatever ultimate length of time). So you just decide to hit the <move to new neighborhood> button.

Where are you going to get put?

If inactive plots are indefinite rather than pulled into some sort of storage automatically after some time period, than nearly every neighborhood on the server is going to be 50/50 "full" despite most of them having a decent number of lapsed account plots. Does the server make you a completely new, empty public neighborhood even though the player activity is already down-trending so the likelihood of your new neighborhood ever getting an influx of players short of waiting for 13.0 is low? Does the server tell you "no open neighborhoods found"? Does the server put you in a long-term queue awaiting someone else moving, except that that person is also then in a queue waiting for a third person to move who is waiting for a fourth open slot and so on--and there's a non-zero chance that you are just taking the second person's plot in a similarly dead neighborhood which is why they are moving in the first place.

To me, a sharding system where it combines dead neighborhoods into active ones and holds lapsed plots in limbo after a certain degree of inactivity (then slots them into an open place when the account is reactivated) sounds like the most likely solution, the only one that allows players to actually find active public neighborhoods outside of the expansion launch window. If it can detect and make neighborhoods at will, why wouldn't it also be able to close them?

But there are still question marks, like how do specific plot locations work? Plot reservation mechanics are an area which is still very up in the air. It's clear that Blizzard is keenly aware of FFXIV's missteps, but there are obvious holes we have no answers for. Beach plots in Orgrimmar are going to be highly desired, as are waterfall plots in both locations, the Azshara forest sections of Org's, probably the duskwood-y dark forest sections of Elwynn. Will the game infinitely generate new public neighborhoods if every player wants some singular really great location with stellar views? Do you not get to choose at all if you pick public?

Without understanding secondary mechanics like that, it is impossible to know with certainty how "maintenance" works. I just don't think Blizzard is going to want to allow for lots and lots of dead neighborhoods, and preserving lapsed accounts' slots in individual neighborhoods heavily gridlocks any movement or capability to find public neighbors. So maintenance meaning it can prune plots or entire neighborhoods seems the likely interpretation.

[Limayria]

No I think it's more dramatic.

Like, picture a world in ruins. A former civilization lies in ashes. Once glorious buildings and towers have crumbled to dust. Dead people everywhere. The sky is darkened with a blue Void. Then on the street, you see one figure still standing. Xal'atath walks through the chaos, with a slight smirk on her face. She helped bring about all of this.

And it's been thousands of times. On thousands of worlds.

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Metzen said something goes wrong in Midnight, seemingly suggesting that is involves the final clash with Light and Shadow. So there's a possibility we build up a strong Light-presence on Azeroth and banish the Shadow, only for Light to take an unexpected turn against us. Some kind of Arathi-led theocracy where no dissent is tolerated and everyone has to convert to the Light or be "purged".

I've been saying for a while midnight isnt gonna be light vs void expac, it's gonna be the us vs light expac kick started by the void

Then we have the final show down of grandma (Elune) fighting abusive step dad (aman Thule) for custody of Azeroth and us

I also don't think Elune is gonna be simply a life goddess, I think she's gonna be a proto Azeorth in tune with all 6 forces/ part of the seventh

[Joshuaj]

No I think it's more dramatic.

Like, picture a world in ruins. A former civilization lies in ashes. Once glorious buildings and towers have crumbled to dust. Dead people everywhere. The sky is darkened with a blue Void. Then on the street, you see one figure still standing. Xal'atath walks through the chaos, with a slight smirk on her face. She helped bring about all of this.

And it's been thousands of times. On thousands of worlds.

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Metzen said something goes wrong in Midnight, seemingly suggesting that is involves the final clash with Light and Shadow. So there's a possibility we build up a strong Light-presence on Azeroth and banish the Shadow, only for Light to take an unexpected turn against us. Some kind of Arathi-led theocracy where no dissent is tolerated and everyone has to convert to the Light or be "purged".

...ok?

Lots of worlds in WoW have been brought to ruin by bad guys. We killed them all the same.

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These attempts to make Xal'atath seem cool fall short when you realize she's done nothing I haven't seen before.

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Heck, during TWW, she's constantly screwed over my multiple factors.