The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Sondrelk]

I don't know where the thought came from but it would be funny if, in a huge twist, they do Ethereals AND (High) Arrakoa for Midnight.

I remembered that the Arrakoa were originally solar light themed so they would pair well with Kareshi and fit the Renilash AND TBC theme.

If we are going for out there theories, then the old BfA prediction of Lightforged Undead is back on the table. Priory does have the specific variant of light based necromancy that would be required to make it work.

[Tezzeret1993]

If we are going for out there theories, then the old BfA prediction of Lightforged Undead is back on the table. Priory does have the specific variant of light based necromancy that would be required to make it work.

Not entirely impossible, Magrave San'dane already explained to Calia Menethil that necromancy is just a magical process and it's not tailed to Death magic alone, but each kind have their own way to do it.

Now i don't know if Blizzard just did it to explain Light Undeads and so on giving it a sense for the Priory dungeon, but as game keep living you have to add things to the canon lore so it's ok for me if they eventually give some more lore behind them being added

[Dvalin]

Again, with the launch of 11.1.5 tomorrow, when can we expect 11.1.7 (or even 11.2) PTR data at the earliest?

[Sondrelk]

Again, with the launch of 11.1.5 tomorrow, when can we expect 11.1.7 (or even 11.2) PTR data at the earliest?

For 11.1.7, probably concrete datamining in about 2-3 weeks depending on how meaty the patch is. Though given the seeming push for 8 week patches, maybe as soon as tomorrow or Friday.

For 11.2. maybe in a month or so.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Lots of worlds in WoW have been brought to ruin by bad guys. We killed them all the same.

I find it really funny the guy I know mainly for cosmic forces shit would say this, since this sentence encapsulates so well why that kind of power creep is bad.

These attempts to make Xal'atath seem cool fall short when you realize she's done nothing I haven't seen before.

I'm not going to pretend she isn't overrated, and I'm not going to pretend the fact she's a hot chick with bare feet doesn't contribute significantly to why she's overrated, but she has novelty by the standards of WoW villains just by virtue of having an entertaining personality combined with some level of emotional variety.

Heck, during TWW, she's constantly screwed over my multiple factors.

Yes, that's dynamism. When power shifts frequently between heroes and villains, it's way better than having heroes steamroll the villains or having the villains constantly kick their asses/write off all their defeats as Achktually Muh Plan until the last act. The fact that Xal'atath keeps getting "screwed by multiple factors" is part of what makes her a comparatively more enjoyable villain than the ones before her, especially compared to Zovaal and Iridikron. A villain that's effectual but subject to getting screwed over e.g. by third-party agents or shit she just didn't see coming is good, and heroes really should be the same.

[huth]

Not entirely impossible, Magrave San'dane already explained to Calia Menethil that necromancy is just a magical process and it's not tailed to Death magic alone, but each kind have their own way to do it.

Now i don't know if Blizzard just did it to explain Light Undeads and so on giving it a sense for the Priory dungeon, but as game keep living you have to add things to the canon lore so it's ok for me if they eventually give some more lore behind them being added

Nah, we had non-Death based undead well before this. WoD even gave us Life-based undead.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, that's dynamism. When power shifts frequently between heroes and villains, it's way better than having heroes steamroll the villains or having the villains constantly kick their asses/write off all their defeats as Achktually Muh Plan until the last act. The fact that Xal'atath keeps getting "screwed by multiple factors" is part of what makes her a comparatively more enjoyable villain than the ones before her, especially compared to Zovaal and Iridikron. A villain that's effectual but subject to getting screwed over e.g. by third-party agents or shit she just didn't see coming is good, and heroes really should be the same.

The other two are liable to end you up with either boring invincible villains or just ineffectual non-threats where you wonder why you even bother.
And a string of butt-pulls rarely goes over well unless it's comedy.

[Eldryth]

I'm not going to pretend she isn't overrated, and I'm not going to pretend the fact she's a hot chick with bare feet doesn't contribute significantly to why she's overrated, but she has novelty by the standards of WoW villains just by virtue of having an entertaining personality combined with some level of emotional variety.



Yes, that's dynamism. When power shifts frequently between heroes and villains, it's way better than having heroes steamroll the villains or having the villains constantly kick their asses/write off all their defeats as Achktually Muh Plan until the last act. The fact that Xal'atath keeps getting "screwed by multiple factors" is part of what makes her a comparatively more enjoyable villain than the ones before her, especially compared to Zovaal and Iridikron. A villain that's effectual but subject to getting screwed over e.g. by third-party agents or shit she just didn't see coming is good, and heroes really should be the same.

The thing is, Xal'atath was great... back in Legion and BFA (and I don't think her appearance is too big of a factor in that, given that she was very popular even before she got that body). I think she's suffering from the same issues that made Sylvanas a mess back when she was in focus- the things that made them such great characters in the past just don't work with the way Blizzard typically approaches their main villains.


Xal'atath was great as a mysterious, manipulative character- helping us, but constantly making us question whether that help would actually be worth it in the long run. She was invaluable in Legion, but the Void benefitted in the process (like when she was so happy to get into the Seat of the Pantheon). And in BFA too, she used us, but also made it possible for us to defeat N'zoth (supposedly anyway, they really failed to show why her knife was important there).

Now, though? We've spent this entire expansion hunting her with no real scheming or manipulation- she's just been a classic Blizzard villain. The only moment where the old Xal'atath shined through at all was when she impersonated Drenden to lure us into a trap.

In hindsight, this was kind of inevitable when Blizzard decided to advertise her as the big bad right from the start. They would have had to approach her very differently to do her justice- don't reveal her as the true villain from the start, have her use different forms to trick us and the Nerubians into fighting each other (not just come as herself and order the Nerubians to rise up), and only reveal her true form later in the expansion/as a twist ending to lead in to Midnight.


We'll see though, maybe Blizzard has a twist planned that'll redeem her current treatment. Maybe we'll find out that she's been impersonating one of our current allies all along or something like that. Maybe Khadgar really did die, his "return" was actually Xal'atath taking his place, and their ridiculous decision to abandon Dalaran was her trick?

[huth]

Now, though? We've spent this entire expansion hunting her with no real scheming or manipulation- she's just been a classic Blizzard villain. The only moment where the old Xal'atath shined through at all was when she impersonated Drenden to lure us into a trap.

Did you miss the part where the entirety of getting Azj-Kahet involved was just a distraction from her real plan?

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Did you miss the part where the entirety of getting Azj-Kahet involved was just a distraction from her real plan?

But that's actually quite dumb. It's a bit more interesting if the villain doesn't just have a "real plan" to unveil at the end: what's really best if you're trying to sell a villain as smart or effectual is when the villain had that plan, that plan fell through, but they had a backup because they realized that there's a possibility that their first option would fail—better yet, they put something together on the fly with other pieces they realized they could put on the board. If you write off Azj-Kahet as a distraction, that just inches closer to Zovaal territory.

[Eldryth]

Did you miss the part where the entirety of getting Azj-Kahet involved was just a distraction from her real plan?

Her plan was to empower the Black Blood by having us fight the Nerubians. And Alleria does flash back to the one actual trick she pulled (impersonating Drenden, as I mentioned) but it falls flat when you realize that 1. It's the only manipulation that she bothered with in the entire expansion so far and 2. The whole conflict would have happened anyway. The Nerubians were already rising up to invade based on a simple order, not manipulation, and we were headed there chasing Azeroth's visions with no input from "Drenden". Her one trick weakened Dalaran's defenses and nothing else, and after that intro she's just acted like a typical overconfident Warcraft villain.

[Worldshaper]

11.1.7 will be announced on Wednesday, a week from now. It'll release 6 weeks and 6 days after that, on June 24th.

Unless they decide to spice things up, of course. They could post a video detailing both 11.1.7 and 11.2 all at once, or try to shorten 11.1.5 down a bit so we get new story and features sooner. But it's a small chance.

[Hitei]

2. The whole conflict would have happened anyway. The Nerubians were already rising up to invade based on a simple order, not manipulation, and we were headed there chasing Azeroth's visions with no input from "Drenden". Her one trick weakened Dalaran's defenses and nothing else, and after that intro she's just acted like a typical overconfident Warcraft villain.

What? She tried to convince Neferess to join her cause and when that didn't work, manipulated Ansurek into stabbing and usurping her mother by feeding Ansurek's dissatisfaction with the kingdom's dwindling status, and then manipulated Ansurek into ordering the invasion, knowing it was likely they'd fail. She manipulated/tricked Aelric and the Order of the Night into harrying the Arathi by convincing them that she'd help them win and that Renilash had come. She manipulated/tricked eirich into poisoning the other Earthen with void magic by convincing him that she could help him fix the awakening machine and that he would be a hero who saved his people.

[Reive]

damn, the forums are melting. is the new patch that bad?

[Jaggler]

But that's actually quite dumb. It's a bit more interesting if the villain doesn't just have a "real plan" to unveil at the end: what's really best if you're trying to sell a villain as smart or effectual is when the villain had that plan, that plan fell through, but they had a backup because they realized that there's a possibility that their first option would fail—better yet, they put something together on the fly with other pieces they realized they could put on the board. If you write off Azj-Kahet as a distraction, that just inches closer to Zovaal territory.

Xal'atath is very far from Zovaal.
Yes, she had Azj-Kahet as a distraction and deployed void minions in Hallowfall and Ringing Deeps.
But in contrast to Zovaal, she had her plans foild not once, but twice by now (first when her Dark Heart was shattered, second when Gallywix handed it over to the ethereals).

Manipulation, misdirection and confusion have always been weapons in the arsenal of the void. If anything, Xal'atath is one of the more "direct" Void entities we have faced thus far. It's not like she has plans upon plans upon plans. She is rather direct in what she wants and how to get there.

[Eldryth]

What? She tried to convince Neferess to join her cause and when that didn't work, manipulated Ansurek into stabbing and usurping her mother by feeding Ansurek's dissatisfaction with the kingdom's dwindling status, and then manipulated Ansurek into ordering the invasion, knowing it was likely they'd fail. She manipulated/tricked Aelric and the Order of the Night into harrying the Arathi by convincing them that she'd help them win and that Renilash had come. She manipulated/tricked eirich into poisoning the other Earthen with void magic by convincing him that she could help him fix the awakening machine and that he would be a hero who saved his people.

I did forget about Eirich, so fair enough on that. And after rewatching Ansurek's cinematic, Xal'atath's promises were more important that I had remembered (I remembered Ansurek wanting to go to war from the start, but not that Xal'atath had already visited her first). So it wasn't lost quite as completely as I had remembered.

With that said, I still think that they've been failing to capitalize on that theme for the most part, and it's largely because the truth behind everything she says has been too clear to us as the players. There's been no more half-truths, no question of who or what we can trust, just an overconfident villain making some obviously false promises (and normal deals with Gallywix, and possibly the Order of Night).

The old Xal'atath made us question everything she did and said- there was usually, if not always, truth to her words but you could still tell that she was pursuing her own agenda that you can't fully trust (like when she tricks you into trying to steal Elune's power, or gets a foothold into the Seat of the Pantheon). She lost everything that made her interesting when she became such a predictable villain, with such obvious lies that we always know when she's being dishonest.

[Cheezits]

Xal is a fantastic WoW antagonist. She enjoys what she does, she has personality, she's smart- but she also fucks up, often, in ways that make the plot a lot of fun. Consider that this is the first entry in a saga she is apparently continually in, and she has already got punked twice in each patch.

Sure, the bar is low after Zovaal. But Iridikron was a nice change of pace (straight up leaving the expansion for his own goals) and Xal is even better.

Fyrakk was boring. But also not the real villain.

[Joshuaj]

Yo Blizz, I'm bored. Mind if we get some housing news pls?

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

Yo Blizz, I'm bored. Mind if we get some housing news pls?

Would be nice, I need something to cope about and the Housing stuff has been morphine to me.

[Joshuaj]

It's weird, cause we got nothing today, even tho it's way past noon rn

[Worldshaper]

Do we have any good predictions for 11.1.7? I feel like this patch will be notable, since it'll set the stage for the rest of TWW.

Here's my guess:

• Announced Wednesday next week, PTR the same night or at least before the weekend.
• Released June 24th.
• Pandaren Heritage armour set (to go with MoP Classic).
• New character customisation for the Pandaren.
• Sets the stage for for Ethereal raid and "Rootlands" zone with a cool questline and some world events. Questline involves discovering more about the dead Old Gods, the Black Blood and the legacy of life and death left behind deep below.
• Turbulent Timeways returns.
• Something a little unexpected such as Brawler's Guild, Mage Tower, or an new similar feature for Delves.